Global warming

[Ivy]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the Co2 goes about trapping the light in. Seems to me that if it keeps it in, it would keep it out.

But I don't know. I've asked this question on a few other forums, asked literally dozens, maybe even over a hundred people, HOW THE FUCK IT DOES IT, and I get nothing but evasion.

If no one gives me a proven answer to that I'm gonna ask Ivy to close the thread. It's already getting retarded.

That's because the energy is not in the same form when it comes in as it is when it tries to leave. On the way in it's sunlight- on the way out it's infrared heat.

Elementary, my dear Nocapszy.

 

[Splittet]

...

I know dude.

I'll restate my question so there's no confusion.

By what chemical property does Co2 gas become a prism by which light can go in, but not out?

Explain that to me.

Lol, I have to laugh a little. Is your position you have to understand every tiny little detail about everything to believe in it? Do you not believe in E=mc^2 just because you do not know every little proof for it there is?

 

[Nocapszy]

Lol, I have to laugh a little. Is your position you have to understand every tiny little detail about everything to believe in it? Do you not believe in E=mc^2 just because you do not know every little proof for it there is?

No fool, I need at least one. Since there are no events that can be directly attributed to the warming, that couldn't be blamed on something else, I'll ask for the basic chemical proof. That way, even though we've not experienced the effects just yet, we can be sure that it's not all farcical hoo-ha.

Laugh all you want. I'm not the one asserting speculation as truth. Einstein's thing actually has proof. Lots of them.

I'm asking you guys to educate me. If you can't, then that really doesn't bode well for you. It doesn't affect me at all.

Is Ivy the only one who got that? Jeez... I thought it would be kind of obvious.

 

[Nocapszy]

That's because the energy is not in the same form when it comes in as it is when it tries to leave. On the way in it's sunlight- on the way out it's infrared heat.

Elementary, my dear Nocapszy.

Fair enough. Certainly some of it is light, but I guess that part gets out.

But wait...

If it's just heat, and not light anymore, it depends on daisy-chain transfer through molecules to escape, irrespective of the substance.

 

[Splittet]

I'm asking you guys to educate me. If you can't, then that really doesn't bode well for you. It doesn't affect me at all.

I can give you some education on the topic. Just as in life, in intellectual activities it is important to choose your battles. Not everything is equally important or interesting to discuss. Some things we can be very certain about, some things we are more uncertain about, and it is the uncertain stuff that is most interesting to discuss. The question you asked was a facts related question. It is not one of those things that are up for debate, because there is no uncertainty surrounding it, and then there isn't really too important to know all the details about how it works, but it is important to know what is its effect. It is important to know the big picture, but you do not need to know all the little details.

 

[Ivy]

I have to say, it didn't take long for me to confirm what I vaguely remembered from my geology courses with a cursory Google search. I think this thread has less to do with fact-finding and more to do with Nocapszy marking some intellectual territory (which is easier to do by exposing someone else's non-knowledge than by exhibiting your own knowledge).

 

[sassafrassquatch]

I'm asking you guys to educate me. If you can't, then that really doesn't bode well for you. It doesn't affect me at all.

Google is your friend.

 

[miss fortune]

*yawn* damn you people for arguing in such an un-nice way while I was taking a nice long nap in preparation to respond!!! :steam:

and so you wanted a simple explanation Nocap? I was prepared to give you a rather complex one if necissary!

Greenhouse gasses trap the heat from the sunlight closer to the surface of the earth, this makes the surface temperature warmer, which makes water evaporate at a higher rate, putting more water vapor in the air. Water vapor is also a greenhouse gas, which traps in heat... the cycle repeats itself over and over, getting incrementally warmer each time.

Why aren't we feeling this in most of the world? So far our oceans have been absorbing a good portion of the warmth that was added to the atmosphere and burying them thousands of feet below the surface (oceans, covering ~2/3 of the planet, are tricky things ) This heat will resurface again in the future when the deep ocean currents cycle up to the surface of the ocean. This is provided that the increased surface temperature of the earth really doesn't turn off the thermohaline circulation of the ocean and plunge the north atlantic back into a state of glaciation like in the movie Day After Tommorrow (though it would never happen that fast) - that scenario isn't as likely as the globe continuing to get hotter and the distribution of precipitation around the globe altering to make some of our most habitable regions inhabitable!

that's the simple explanation of what could happen because of what does happen- if you want the complex one just tell me!

 

[Zergling]

Fair enough. Certainly some of it is light, but I guess that part gets out.

But wait...

If it's just heat, and not light anymore, it depends on daisy-chain transfer through molecules to escape, irrespective of the substance.

Here is a bit of thermal radiation/electromagnetic spectrum 101 for the non-knowledgeable person asking this question:

As you probably know, the electromagnetic spectrum has a series of types of radiation with increasing frequency; radio, microwave, infrared, visible, UV, X-rays, gamma rays.

This radiation can be produced by electric currents or other charge currents moving the right way, energy from excited states in molecules and atoms, thermal radiation, etc.

Thermal radiation given off by all objects that can absorb some form of light. The total energy given off is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature from absolute zero, the area, and the amount the object absorbs light. The radiation has a shape kind of similar to a bell curve, with the peak frequency proportional to the temperature (so hotter objects glow infrared, red, yellow, etc. as the peak frquency gets higher and higher.), but all radiation is given out in higher amounts at higher temperatures. Sometimes, the fraction of incoming radiation absorbed/emitted changes with frequency, and some absorption is due to quantum effects, molecular excitations, radio receivers, chemical reactions, etc. rather than directly heating up the object.

Energy from the sun is mostly coming in as visible light, as the peak radiation from the sun comes in this area of the spectrum, but at most earth temperatures the radiation will leave as infrared. Because the energy coming in from the sun balances with energy leaving the earth, it means more energy is leaving as infrared, but coming in as visible. The greenhouse gases absorb infrared radiation much more effectively than visible light. The temperature than goes higher until the energy flows balance again.


As for effects: A lot of glaciers and ice sheets have been getting smaller over the past century, the north pole ice cap has apparently melted a few times in the past several decades when it used ot be much more completely frozen.

 

[Nocapszy]

I can give you some education on the topic. Just as in life, in intellectual activities it is important to choose your battles. Not everything is equally important or interesting to discuss. Some things we can be very certain about, some things we are more uncertain about, and it is the uncertain stuff that is most interesting to discuss. The question you asked was a facts related question. It is not one of those things that are up for debate, because there is no uncertainty surrounding it, and then there isn't really too important to know all the details about how it works, but it is important to know what is its effect. It is important to know the big picture, but you do not need to know all the little details.

It's not about details dude.

It's about logistics. If the logistics aren't there, it's not real.

More accurately, if it's real there are logistics.

You're right in that, to know a macrosystem exists, we needn't flesh out all the details. We do have to see the effects of the system and prove incontrovertibly that those results were not by any means a result of some other process.

Al Gore's theory does not possess this certainty, and probably won't for a great number of years assuming it's true. All the hurricanes we've seen COULD be thanks to natural meteorology, and might not really have anything to do with our supposed contribution to the heating.

If we're to spend as great a deal of time as we are working on the solution to a problem we haven't seen the effects of, wouldn't you think that knowing the process might be a bit settling. At least to insure that you're not wasting your time?

 

[Nocapszy]

*yawn* damn you people for arguing in such an un-nice way while I was taking a nice long nap in preparation to respond!!! :steam:

and so you wanted a simple explanation Nocap? I was prepared to give you a rather complex one if necissary!

Greenhouse gasses trap the heat from the sunlight closer to the surface of the earth, this makes the surface temperature warmer, which makes water evaporate at a higher rate, putting more water vapor in the air. Water vapor is also a greenhouse gas, which traps in heat... the cycle repeats itself over and over, getting incrementally warmer each time.

Why aren't we feeling this in most of the world? So far our oceans have been absorbing a good portion of the warmth that was added to the atmosphere and burying them thousands of feet below the surface (oceans, covering ~2/3 of the planet, are tricky things ) This heat will resurface again in the future when the deep ocean currents cycle up to the surface of the ocean. This is provided that the increased surface temperature of the earth really doesn't turn off the thermohaline circulation of the ocean and plunge the north atlantic back into a state of glaciation like in the movie Day After Tommorrow (though it would never happen that fast) - that scenario isn't as likely as the globe continuing to get hotter and the distribution of precipitation around the globe altering to make some of our most habitable regions inhabitable!

that's the simple explanation of what could happen because of what does happen- if you want the complex one just tell me!

Yeah I got all that. I'm curious how it traps the heat. Not what traps the heat.

I think Zergling got into that. I'mma read his thing.

 

[Nocapszy]

Google is your friend.

What's google?

 

[miss fortune]

oh yeah- forgot one point!

The earth is one of those weird large interconnected systems- if one thing changes even a little it can have a butterfly effect- changing things that you didn't even think were related to it because we still don't fully understand how our own planet works! This could mean everything from the powerful and large storms and devastating droughts that more than a few scientists have proposed to things we may never have dreamed of, like major rivers changing routes or aquifers drying up and the land collapsing somewhat and things of that sort! The earth is a weird place- never underestimate what may happen if we continue fucking with it

 

[miss fortune]

how does it trap heat?!? (why do people always ask questions when I'm sleepy!)

for this you would need to study longwave v shortwave radiation and the fact that O2 and N2 don't really absorb it all that well, but water vapor, CO2 and other greenhouse gasses do! The earth absorbs roughly 70 or so % of the energy that the sun throws at it (depending on the albedo- or reflective properties- of what its hitting) the other 30 or so percent is reflected back into space by a longer wave of radiation- nitrogen and oxygen are not particularly absorbant of these longer waves, but greenhouse gasses, especially water vapor, are. Think of the night time- have you ever noticed that cloudy nights are warmer than clear nights? This is because the water vapor in the clouds keeps us warm the same way that blankets do- by trapping the heat that we (the earth or the human body) radiates!

If you look at the shape of the molecules, some of the absorbitive powers have to do with the less streamlined shapes of the greenhouse gas molecules than of thier N2 or O2 counterparts- more later if needed!

 

[Nocapszy]

Here is a bit of thermal radiation/electromagnetic spectrum 101 for the non-knowledgeable person asking this question:

As you probably know, the electromagnetic spectrum has a series of types of radiation with increasing frequency; radio, microwave, infrared, visible, UV, X-rays, gamma rays.

With you so far

This radiation can be produced by electric currents or other charge currents moving the right way, energy from excited states in molecules and atoms, thermal radiation, etc.

Thermal radiation given off by all objects that can absorb some form of light. The total energy given off is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature from absolute zero, the area, and the amount the object absorbs light. The radiation has a shape kind of similar to a bell curve, with the peak frequency proportional to the temperature (so hotter objects glow infrared, red, yellow, etc. as the peak frquency gets higher and higher.), but all radiation is given out in higher amounts at higher temperatures. Sometimes, the fraction of incoming radiation absorbed/emitted changes with frequency, and some absorption is due to quantum effects, molecular excitations, radio receivers, chemical reactions, etc. rather than directly heating up the object.

Energy from the sun is mostly coming in as visible light, as the peak radiation from the sun comes in this area of the spectrum, but at most earth temperatures the radiation will leave as infrared. Because the energy coming in from the sun balances with energy leaving the earth, it means more energy is leaving as infrared, but coming in as visible. The greenhouse gases absorb infrared radiation much more effectively than visible light.

Like a sheet of glass. I can dig that.

As for effects: A lot of glaciers and ice sheets have been getting smaller over the past century, the north pole ice cap has apparently melted a few times in the past several decades when it used ot be much more completely frozen.

 

[Zergling]

I have to say, it didn't take long for me to confirm what I vaguely remembered from my geology courses with a cursory Google search. I think this thread has less to do with fact-finding and more to do with Nocapszy marking some intellectual territory (which is easier to do by exposing someone else's non-knowledge than by exhibiting your own knowledge).

Yes, this does seem to be the case. I won't be responding to this thread anymore (despite the show off opportunities it presents.).

 

[miss fortune]

true Zerg- I could go on and on about this topic, but I have a feeling that whatever information I provide will be "wrong" somehow! I always feel the need to start with the most basic explanation so that people will have a foundation for the more difficult parts of the explanation that always come later- if someone points out that I'm "wrong" and "dumb" in the first part of explaining I'm signifigantly less likely to continue to the more difficult part- suspecting that they aren't as interested in learning as they are in picking at my explanations *sigh*

off to the grociery store then!

 

[Nocapszy]

I have to say, it didn't take long for me to confirm what I vaguely remembered from my geology courses with a cursory Google search. I think this thread has less to do with fact-finding and more to do with Nocapszy marking some intellectual territory (which is easier to do by exposing someone else's non-knowledge than by exhibiting your own knowledge).

Well on the subject of school, let's talk about vocabulary.

Words are the building blocks of language. We practice vocabulary, including meaning and spelling so we can have a conversation, or so we can read something later.

You guys really think I didn't try google, or wikipedia? The concepts are discussed with no QED. Wikipedia especially has become inundated with excessively verbose analysis, and short of reading any article twice, if only that, and not several tangent articles (remember whatever's butterfly effect? it works the other way too) as many times as the original, something I really don't have time for it's next to impossible to get any kind of intelligible concept of what's actually taking place.

By contrast in school, we learn the vocab if we want to or not. The basic blocks are provided outright.
Those of you who studied (or are studying) global warming in school, were no doubt given the resources necessary to reconstruct the events in your mind.

I'm not studying these things in school, and here and almost anywhere else, it's basically impossible to get anyone to give me the necessary information to do what you were privileged.

But yeah... I can see how repeating a question would be construed as marking intellectual territory.

 

[miss fortune]

just understand that I'm an ESTP- even if I know all about something I prefer to explain it in the simplest manner possible

Not stupid- merely not one to fit in an ivory tower *sigh*

and not one to enjoy being criticized instead of questioned

 

[Ender]

Noted Sea Level Expert Accuses IPCC of Falsifying Data

Temperature Monitoring Reports Widespread Global Cooling

Solar Activity Diminishes, Researchers Predict Another Ice Age.

Four Sources Say Globally Cooler in the past 12 Months

Study Finds Natural Cause for Rapid Arctic Warming

Global Warming on Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, & Neptune

Meh..