[NT] NT Women and Loss of Personhood

[rav3n]

There are aspects of traditionalism whereby the woman is consumed in a relationship. Her role becomes supporting, an extension of the man and their respective progeny. Her personhood is lost. She becomes a martyr for everyone else, an object with practical applications. What have you done for me lately?

It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

Don't traditional men realise how egocentric they are?

All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

Do other women feel this way?

 

[Moiety]

This is why I often get labelled a dick by some women. I'm just as hard with them as I am with man in social interaction. I like to incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers too, fend for themselves and take bullshit from no one.

On the other hand, I hate nothing more than a feminist. I hate revenge mentality.

 

[Ivy]

that's called paternalism, stypg.

Metaphor, I don't think bristling at traditional expectations is limited to NT women.

 

[Salomé]

Don't traditional men realise how egocentric they are?

Why would they? There's no incentive to do so.

All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

Do other women feel this way?

I don't allow anyone to push my boundaries. You are not powerless in this equation.

 

[Moiety]

that's called paternalism, stypg.

What is? What I tell them?

What, I should just shut up and see them dig themselves holes?


Btw, when I said women, I didn't mean women I date. I mean my friends.

 

[Ivy]

What is? What I tell them?

What, I should just shut up and see them dig themselves holes?


Btw, when I said women, I didn't mean women I date. I mean my friends.

The attitude that they are little girls who need your help to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."

 

[Moiety]

The attitude that they are little girls who need your help to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."

Oh how presumptuous of me. I realize now how contemptuous I am.....


Ivy I'm not a brick. I know when to speak and when to shut up. If they act like little girls, grow stupid dependencies (not to mention daddy issues) what kind of friend would I be if I just sat there watching all of it?

It just sickens me to see people taken advantage of. Paternalism? It's not as if I have any control over them. I just offer advice.

 

[Ivy]

I'm not saying you can't say anything. Just that you revealed a bit of a paternalistic attitude in that post. There is a difference between speaking up to offer an alternative perspective to an equal, and speaking up to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."

 

[Salomé]

This is why I often get labelled a dick by some women. I'm just as hard with them as I am with man in social interaction. I like to incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers too, fend for themselves and take bullshit from no one.

On the other hand, I hate nothing more than a feminist. I hate revenge mentality.

Of course the alternative explanation is that they label you as a dick because you act like one.

 

[Moiety]

I'm not saying you can't say anything. Just that you revealed a bit of a paternalistic attitude in that post. There is a difference between speaking up to offer an alternative perspective to an equal, and speaking up to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."

Offering a perspective to someone who is inherently in love with another perspective ("oh I know I need to be strong...but I am..." when inside you can see they are just looking for the right man that controls them in a way that makes them feel safe...and gives them the illusion of freedom....when that is not what should be striving for at all imo).....is not something I can believe works since information is out there everywhere anyway...I can't be arrogant as thinking they haven't seen it from that prism one or twice.

What I want to do is to make them believe it really is possible, which is the problem some women face. They try to think about it, find it too hard and it only reinforces they need a strong man to depend on....it's a vicious cycle and sometimes they need a "snap out of it!" from someone whose opinion they respect (otherwise they wouldn't be my friends).

Of course the alternative explanation is that they label you as a dick because you act like one.

Yeah, these women tend to be Ss alright (they can't read between the lines for shit!).

 

[suttree]

Do "traditional men" as described in the OP still exist in any significant quantity?

The concept seems bizarre to me that it is appropriate/healthy/desirable for a woman to subsume her identity into mine.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm not saying you can't say anything. Just that you revealed a bit of a paternalistic attitude in that post. There is a difference between speaking up to offer an alternative perspective to an equal, and speaking up to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."

Plus I'm not sure he would have treated boys/men the same.

But I definitely see women struggle with this -- lots of times wearing hats trying to please everyone else, it's the dark side of the nurturing streak, trying to "nurture/feed" everyone with not nearly as much instinctual nurturing of self.

A lot of more traditionally minded women even take pride in their ability to play that supporting role, they don't see it as bad even when they're immensely frustrated and feel like they have no life of their own. They usually expect the other people in their life to be sensitive and take care of them in return, instead of embracing a more independent route and draw some self-boundaries.

 

[Moiety]

Plus I'm not sure he would have treated boys/men the same.

I'm even harder on men. But men more easily tend to regard themselves as very independent.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm even harder on men.

Way to prove my point.

 

[Moiety]

Way to prove my point.

Not about being independent. About accepting submission from women.

 

[Randomnity]

Metaphor, I don't think bristling at traditional expectations is limited to NT women.

+1

But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).

 

[rav3n]

Metaphor, I don't think bristling at traditional expectations is limited to NT women.

True. Thought about putting it elsewhere, couldn't decide where since there's no sociology subforum, so here it went.

Why would they? There's no incentive to do so.

True again.

I don't allow anyone to push my boundaries. You are not powerless in this equation.

Never said I was powerless. Only that I grit my teeth when I experience it.

But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).

So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.

 

[Coriolis]

So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.

I know plenty of women in the "younger set" that work outside the home, but there usually seems to be this tacit assumption that they don't need to, because it is ultimately the husband's job to support them, the family, etc. They are free to work, full- or part-time, or to freelance, or to stay home and keep house. No such "freedom" is associated with the men, however. And when children are involved, however devoted the fathers, the assumption is often still that they are the mother's first priority. The behavior is less traditional, partly due to economics, but the attitudes often remain very much so, and I grit my teeth at it, too.

 

[Thalassa]

I know plenty of women in the "younger set" that work outside the home, but there usually seems to be this tacit assumption that they don't need to, because it is ultimately the husband's job to support them, the family, etc. They are free to work, full- or part-time, or to freelance, or to stay home and keep house. No such "freedom" is associated with the men, however. And when children are involved, however devoted the fathers, the assumption is often still that they are the mother's first priority. The behavior is less traditional, partly due to economics, but the attitudes often remain very much so, and I grit my teeth at it, too.

I dunno I know plenty of young guys who don't work who expect their mom or their stripper gf to support them, even if they have multiple children...but I'm guessing you don't know a lot of white trash people.

There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.

So I'm not entirely sure what you're gritting your teeth about.

 

[rav3n]

There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.

Yes, this is more often than not, the norm.