[NT] A Question for E/INTJ - what is the attraction?

[sculpting]

Plus, I think we like taking care of people and raising them up, and ENFPs are a lot like kids. They're open and honest and fun, but sometimes they need to be spanked and brought back to reality.

well, I dunno about the spanking but I do note the reality checks. I actually exert considerable control over my own life and am fiercely independent. I do not take others attempts to control me kindly. I am quite hostile to others critiquing my parental skills, my financies or other aspects of my life. It always feels like an Fe slur. My rather erratic Te has done an okay job at reining in Ne in these areas, and I do well in life as a result, but I know that my boundaries are not ideal, thus will innately respond defensively at times to critique.

Yet for some reason when my INTJ offers critique, there is a second where I "think" to protest, but then rapidly, logically, Te style recognize the truth in his words. It doesnt feel like an Fe judgment, just a Te recognition of inefficiency. "Hmmmm, yeah, well he is right about that...." Even if it extends to sensitive areas like parenting or my personal finance.

The nice thing is that if i disagree, I either justify via pleasure-"I like this, thus I choose to do it, even if illogical" or I present Te style data to contradict the advice-then we discuss a few points and reach a logical choice.

It is just so simple and easy to be honest. It also allows me to be more open with respect to self improvement as I realize suggestions are not aimed at my deficiencies, but are more pragmatic in nature, thus allowable?

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

I don't think I know a single ENFP IRL. I do work with an INFP and we get along OK... but I wonder how a relationship would evolve with one. He seems too... flighty. Completely un-grounded in any kind of logic - I've seen him in heated debates with people over religion, politics, holidays etc and I've actually stepped into those arguments as a 'mediator' to try to keep them from upsetting him to the point of fury. His belief system is incredibly ... unwavering... even in the face of logical inconsistencies in his behaviour. I find it baffling and not a little unnerving.

 

[sculpting]

I don't think I know a single ENFP IRL. I do work with an INFP and we get along OK... but I wonder how a relationship would evolve with one. He seems too... flighty. Completely un-grounded in any kind of logic - I've seen him in heated debates with people over religion, politics, holidays etc and I've actually stepped into those arguments as a 'mediator' to try to keep them from upsetting him to the point of fury. His belief system is incredibly ... unwavering... even in the face of logical inconsistencies in his behaviour. I find it baffling and not a little unnerving.

do you think maybe he is an ENFP? I have never seen an INFP get furious (albeit I have a very limited number to observe). They seem to be a little more prickly??? but wont be openly combative??? I mean, I dunno...just the few I have seen.

Yeah, the above sounds like an ENFP guy I know who is close to 40, but totally not on the Te path-ruled utterly by Fi. He gets very frazzled-but exactly what you are doing-the Te "boot" back to reality-is where you guys can help us, if we get too far off path and get all neurotically bent about stuff.

 

[stringstheory]

do you think maybe he is an ENFP? I have never seen an INFP get furious (albeit I have a very limited number to observe). They seem to be a little more prickly??? but wont be openly combative??? I mean, I dunno...just the few I have seen.

No, this sounds about right. in most cases no, the INFP will not get to that point, but when something in which they strongly believe is questioned they can become VERY agitated. in my experience it's because these beliefs are usually strongly associated with personal identity; my beliefs are who i am, and i'm willing to step up and argue and discuss them. my passion in debating certain topics is often seen as agitation, and an immature INFP who's deeply personal views have been criticized may actually confuse a debate for an argument/personal attack and respond accordingly.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

No, this sounds about right. in most cases no, the INFP will not get to that point, but when something in which they strongly believe is questioned they can become VERY agitated. in my experience it's because these beliefs are usually strongly associated with personal identity; my beliefs are who i am, and i'm willing to step up and argue and discuss them. my passion in debating certain topics is often seen as agitation, and an immature INFP who's deeply personal views have been criticized may actually confuse a debate for an argument/personal attack and respond accordingly.

He does seem to take things very personally when it comes to questioning his ideals. He gets on a kind of crusade to make you understand... but he breaks down in his own argument with inconsistencies; moral decisions that when lined up side by side don't make any logical sense, yet to him they make perfect sense.

Agitated is probably a better word than furious. As soon as someone tries to pick apart what he's saying he kind of dissolves into a fit of moral judgements mixed with grand ideologies that he sees as explaining the whole universe. He can't understand why anyone would think differently.

I do respect his passion... but I don't see how I could have something long-standing with someone who refuses to budge an inch even in the face of blatant fallacies in their argument. To me its baffling. I don't understand it other than to almost dismiss it as his identity being firmly rooted in what he believes and to question that questions everything about who he is as a person. A lot of people are not comfortable doing that... and some are seemingly completely incapable of it at all.

I can get along with those people in social situations - I can bite my tongue - but I couldn't ever see myself trying to live a life with it in my face every day. I'd go nuts.

 

[Rebe]

He does seem to take things very personally when it comes to questioning his ideals. He gets on a kind of crusade to make you understand... but he breaks down in his own argument with inconsistencies; moral decisions that when lined up side by side don't make any logical sense, yet to him they make perfect sense.

Agitated is probably a better word than furious. As soon as someone tries to pick apart what he's saying he kind of dissolves into a fit of moral judgements mixed with grand ideologies that he sees as explaining the whole universe. He can't understand why anyone would think differently.

I do respect his passion... but I don't see how I could have something long-standing with someone who refuses to budge an inch even in the face of blatant fallacies in their argument. To me its baffling. I don't understand it other than to almost dismiss it as his identity being firmly rooted in what he believes and to question that questions everything about who he is as a person. A lot of people are not comfortable doing that... and some are seemingly completely incapable of it at all.

I can get along with those people in social situations - I can bite my tongue - but I couldn't ever see myself trying to live a life with it in my face every day. I'd go nuts.

Do you have a quick example of his logical inconsistency? I am wondering if I do the same thing. If I do, I'd like to change that. Sometimes when people talk about principles, they believe the other argument is logically inconsistent/weak but actually, both principles are not logically sound, but they are principles. In reality, perhaps the principle may never be instilled, but it is still a strong belief. I am wondering what your side of the argument is.

 

[uumlau]

Beautiful image, but the INTJ would have more soul than that robot/android.

The eyes of the robot in the picture are dead.

INTJs have perhaps the most profound depth to their eyes, that may come off as vacuous to some, intimidating to others, and psychotic to a few.

But, for others, well, we see the world inside your eyes, the depth of feeling, granted, buried abysmally deep within.

And, the pain.

hmmmmmmmmm

suddenly feeling sentimental....

I think it's the xNFP ability to empathize. The Ne intuition, plus the Fi/Te, naturally reads things that other types usually miss.

Most see INTJs as impassive, imperturbable. They notice that we aren't interacting with anyone. If they're more perceptive, they notice that we have an intense, but low-key presence that is very still, waiting for something that may never happen.

But xNFPs, and especially ENFPs, wonder what's behind the mask, and because they understand such things in terms of their Fi, their guesses and speculations are more often not correct.

Then, especially the ENFPs, due to their extroversion, walk up to the INTJ and interact with the INTJ using their speculation of the INTJ's inner self as the keystone ... and everything clicks.

This isn't a guaranteed reaction, one should note. Not all ENFPs nor all INTJs are capable of dealing with the other maturely.

But given that the two of them click, the main thing that the INTJ sees in the ENFP is a complete acceptance of the INTJ as is. (Hence the need for maturity ... accepting an immature INTJ can be bad.) Both Ni-dom types have as one of their chief complaints is that no one understands them. Ni comes from left field. The Ne-dom ENFPs read Ni material pretty much as it was intended, with very few, if any, misunderstandings. It is the Ni-dom fear of misunderstanding that makes us reluctant to open up to others. By removing that fear of misunderstanding, ENFPs (and to a lesser degree INFPs) get INTJs to open up in ways that few others ever see.

 

[SillySapienne]

I was initially tempted to answer this...but the fact is you can't, really, without a great deal of projection.

Like all great art, if you identify, you identify. You can't explain to someone else what you see, hear, feel, or experience. I think when someone else explains art to you, you lose the opportunity to learn something about yourself.

Looking at the picture today, my thoughts...

My INTJ best friend in high school had a mystique and impenetrable distance to her, she was ethereal, wise beyond her years, and wiser than me. I embraced her, and loved her, immensely, I was her loyal dog, she my cat queen.

She fully opened up to me on several occasions, but I nevertheless fully embraced her, and trusted that she did, in fact, love me. (which she did )

There was another encounter/experience I had with an INTJ male in high school, I "knew" him for six years and over the course of 14 or so hours, one night/morning, I shared an experience with him that changed my life, forever, but by the end of this shared experience, he fully engaged me, but then, le sigh, after I had to leave, he resumed his aloof position, and I never saw what I saw that fateful night/morning ever again.

I don't know, though, perhaps this has something to do with the fact that I am an enneagram 4, but sometimes I feel like the android in the picture, I'm there, but there are parts of me that are still so far away?!!?!?!

 

[sculpting]

He does seem to take things very personally when it comes to questioning his ideals. He gets on a kind of crusade to make you understand... but he breaks down in his own argument with inconsistencies; moral decisions that when lined up side by side don't make any logical sense, yet to him they make perfect sense.

Agitated is probably a better word than furious. As soon as someone tries to pick apart what he's saying he kind of dissolves into a fit of moral judgements mixed with grand ideologies that he sees as explaining the whole universe. He can't understand why anyone would think differently.

I do respect his passion... but I don't see how I could have something long-standing with someone who refuses to budge an inch even in the face of blatant fallacies in their argument. To me its baffling. I don't understand it other than to almost dismiss it as his identity being firmly rooted in what he believes and to question that questions everything about who he is as a person. A lot of people are not comfortable doing that... and some are seemingly completely incapable of it at all.

I can get along with those people in social situations - I can bite my tongue - but I couldn't ever see myself trying to live a life with it in my face every day. I'd go nuts.

ah, agitation-enfps can get a little, um, more angry than agitated some times.

as for the logical fallacies-I'd have to refer to the INFPs for this particular person, but sometimes even in myself I will stumble over values-like big inlaid rules-that I cant seem to work past logically. I can ignore them, but it makes me hurt inside to do so. Most always I try and defer to logic if possible, but when the "value" arises, the end choice can totally defy logic. I understand it totally defies logic. However it is still the right answer.

As an example see the "is it okay to be mean to others" thread in relationships. Logically it is okay, lots of people do so for very good reasons. However there is big internal stop sign inside me that says NO! I can run the stop sign and be mean, but later I will suffer internal pain as a result-and it is exceptionally hard to self forgive.

 

[SillySapienne]

I think it's the xNFP ability to empathize. The Ne intuition, plus the Fi/Te, naturally reads things that other types usually miss.

Most see INTJs as impassive, imperturbable. They notice that we aren't interacting with anyone. If they're more perceptive, they notice that we have an intense, but low-key presence that is very still, waiting for something that may never happen.

But xNFPs, and especially ENFPs, wonder what's behind the mask, and because they understand such things in terms of their Fi, their guesses and speculations are more often not correct.

Then, especially the ENFPs, due to their extroversion, walk up to the INTJ and interact with the INTJ using their speculation of the INTJ's inner self as the keystone ... and everything clicks.

This isn't a guaranteed reaction, one should note. Not all ENFPs nor all INTJs are capable of dealing with the other maturely.

But given that the two of them click, the main thing that the INTJ sees in the ENFP is a complete acceptance of the INTJ as is. (Hence the need for maturity ... accepting an immature INTJ can be bad.) Both Ni-dom types have as one of their chief complaints is that no one understands them. Ni comes from left field. The Ne-dom ENFPs read Ni material pretty much as it was intended, with very few, if any, misunderstandings. It is the Ni-dom fear of misunderstanding that makes us reluctant to open up to others. By removing that fear of misunderstanding, ENFPs (and to a lesser degree INFPs) get INTJs to open up in ways that few others ever see.

I get this a lot, from my INTJ, that I *actually* understand him, where most people do not.

Granted, I don't understand all aspects of him, but I read both his implicit and explicit signals/signs well.

What, hmmm, worries me about your above statement is this part, "the main thing that the INTJ sees in the ENFP is a complete acceptance of the INTJ as is."

That's all?

Acceptance?

No mutual exploration?

No mutually found depths of life, and meaning?



SillySapienne wants more from her mate than her mate exclusively wanting her understanding and acceptance.

I give that shit out like candy, granted, INTJs are a bit more complex than your average Joe, but still, that's all you want from us?!!?



Really???!!?

And, once again, this might be due to my enneagram, but I feel misunderstood and freakish all the damn time.

Yes, I have the ability and facility to connect with many life forms, and the universe itself, but still, on a human, existential level, I feel quite unique to a negative, lonely extent.

I was not built like other girls, my desires are vast, varied, and deep.

And, I think what makes me fall in love with people is their ability to "get it", in general, and more specifically, their ability, which is rare, to get me. :blushing:

 

[Poki]

ah, agitation-enfps can get a little, um, more angry than agitated some times.

as for the logical fallacies-I'd have to refer to the INFPs for this particular person, but sometimes even in myself I will stumble over values-like big inlaid rules-that I cant seem to work past logically. I can ignore them, but it makes me hurt inside to do so. Most always I try and defer to logic if possible, but when the "value" arises, the end choice can totally defy logic. I understand it totally defies logic. However it is still the right answer.

As an example see the "is it okay to be mean to others" thread in relationships. Logically it is okay, lots of people do so for very good reasons. However there is big internal stop sign inside me that says NO! I can run the stop sign and be mean, but later I will suffer internal pain as a result-and it is exceptionally hard to self forgive.

So basically your internal pain is your Fi values. Its a part of Fi, but is not all that Fi is. Your defined values is just that a definition of your Fi values. Its not that the values arise like a stop sign, but the awareness of the value, the awareness of passing that stop sign and having that feeling value rear its head. If you were not aware then you would basically go until you "broke" a value.

This is just how I see things.

 

[stringstheory]

Agitated is probably a better word than furious. As soon as someone tries to pick apart what he's saying he kind of dissolves into a fit of moral judgements mixed with grand ideologies that he sees as explaining the whole universe. He can't understand why anyone would think differently.

I think this is just a human trait as opposed to a type-specific one. Consistency isn't a strong area for humans, and even your more "logical" types are no exception. my ENTJ best friend is exactly as you describe here, while i find that i'm the one who tends to be more open to dissecting the ideas we discuss.

I do respect his passion... but I don't see how I could have something long-standing with someone who refuses to budge an inch even in the face of blatant fallacies in their argument. To me its baffling. I don't understand it other than to almost dismiss it as his identity being firmly rooted in what he believes and to question that questions everything about who he is as a person. A lot of people are not comfortable doing that... and some are seemingly completely incapable of it at all.

People are strange.....

 

[SillySapienne]

Are we talking about Fi, now, and how it is like living with God inside you all the damn time, even when you masturbate!!!!

It never goes away, and sometimes I wish it would.

 

[Poki]

Are we talking about Fi, now, and how it is like living with God inside you all the damn time, even when you masturbate!!!!

It never goes away, and sometimes I wish it would.

I dont know, part of my values are dependent on the people I am with and dependent on in which ways I am with them, part of them are dependent on the things that would cause me to hurt if they did.

You seem to have your values defined by God. Who is God to you, which values does he define, which ones do you "need" him to define? Which ones are driven by anxiety, which are by hurt, what causes the hurt.

You really have to seperate out your values and not just know what it is that causes them, but to know why, to be able to seperate it out and assign these values where they deserve to be assigned. Like if something hurts you it means you would not wish someone else to do it to you, but another person may be fine if you do this same thing to them. Be able to seperate the internal judgement of how you would feel from how the other person feels.

But then you have to add in the complications of though shall not kill and where this fits in to values or basically the extreme ends.

I would be the first in line to logically argue with God and his reasoning Would be a real eye opener.

I feel kinda stupid explaining these things to an Fi user, hopefully you got something out of it.

 

[uumlau]

I get this a lot, from my INTJ, that I *actually* understand him, where most people do not.

Granted, I don't understand all aspects of him, but I read both his implicit and explicit signals/signs well.

What, hmmm, worries me about your above statement is this part, "the main thing that the INTJ sees in the ENFP is a complete acceptance of the INTJ as is."

That's all?

Acceptance?

No mutual exploration?

No mutually found depths of life, and meaning?

Yep. We INTJs are shallow SOBs. No exploration.

SillySapienne wants more from her mate than her mate exclusively wanting her understanding and acceptance.

I give that shit out like candy, granted, INTJs are a bit more complex than your average Joe, but still, that's all you want from us?!!?



Really???!!?

Well, yeah, because we're shallow like that. No depth at all.

And, once again, this might be due to my enneagram, but I feel misunderstood and freakish all the damn time.

Yes, I have the ability and facility to connect with many life forms, and the universe itself, but still, on a human, existential level, I feel quite unique to a negative, lonely extent.

I was not built like other girls, my desires are vast, varied, and deep.

And, I think what makes me fall in love with people is their ability to "get it", in general, and more specifically, their ability, which is rare, to get me. :blushing:

And not only are we INTJs shallow, we don't do sarcasm at all.

Nope, not a sarcastic bone in my body.

All serious. All the time.

Especially around ENFPs.

 

[stringstheory]

Yep. We INTJs are shallow SOBs. No exploration.


Well, yeah, because we're shallow like that. No depth at all.

And not only are we INTJs shallow, we don't do sarcasm at all.

Nope, not a sarcastic bone in my body.

All serious. All the time.

Especially around ENFPs.

You are too cute

 

[sculpting]

You are too cute

You forgot utterly, totally, completely amazingly adorable. Along with amazingly clever and cute! Meow!

 

[Amargith]

Ohhh Uumlau...you're in for a very very goeeyy ride

Edit: to save this poor INTJ the trouble of having to explain this to every NFP on the forum, I wanted to let you guys know me and Uumlau have had this convo already on our walls

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/converse.php?u=9310&u2=5494&page=5

(start from the third post)

 

[SillySapienne]

Is there an uumlau love train that I was unaware of goin' on up in here!!?

uumlau = awesomeness

infinite

 

[uumlau]

Choo-chooooooooooo!