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  1. #1
    Senior Member Clegane's Avatar
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    Default We should use Socionics' dichotomies

    Like many here, I'm not a MBTI or a Socionics follower. I follow JCFs. But it's just too obvious that the P/J used in MBTI doesn't work.
    Just think at some of those very sensorish ISTPs. People are often like "this is a good example of an ISTP leading with Se". No, it's wrong. It's just a sensing dominated introvert, also known as Si-dom. Si-dom is not just about the past, but people fail to aknowledge this. ISTPs are Si-Te. Let's stop this madness, and let's start using the correct letters. MBTI ISTJs are often described in a way that's ridiculous to consider them perceivers. Of course, there are some exceptions, but the J letter for them just doesn't make sense. You lead with a perceiving function, you are a perceiver. It has nothing to do with the direction of the function.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Another way to word your post is, the descriptions of J/P in MBTI are misaligned to the actual extroverted function you use. You are correct. The MBTI test cannot accurately pinpoint which cognitive functions you use. That is because Myers-Briggs didn't think through what Pi and Pe really were and how they by definition tell J vs P.

    Lenore Thomson fixed this by defining J/P accurately, in a way that I think is obvious:

    When we refer to J/P, we temporarily in this discussion refer to the extroverted function. Ps (extroverted perceiving types) are those who live in-the-moment, processing outside information. Extroversion is about the outside, and extroverted perception is attuned to the outside information coming in. Introverted perception is mental perception, it is not outwardly attuned, and so Si for instance is not outward sensing, but inward concrete perception. The definition of Ne is seeing possibilities and predictions in the moment, being invested in what's really going on behind the curtain, what's going on over the hill or on an important problem we're solving: what we could try, and what people are really thinking. Ni is not about this or perceiving the outside, it neglects the moment and goes inward to focus on ideas, new perspectives for thinking, imagination, and deep possibilities. You're right in that these correlate to the Socionics types. ILI are not always Ps in MBTI. However ILIs are always Js in Lenore Thomson theory because she defines Js differently: as someone much more attuned to inward perceiving, incoming information in thought, than they are on the moment. She wrote a whole book on the logical clarifications to these dichotomies and what they really mean.

    Next, Fe and Te are outward functions, but not on perception. Fe and Te are about the world's judgement systems and beliefs, such as personal values vs truth/untruth beliefs. You cannot perceive with Fe and Te, you use them as say, resources, authorities, or inspiration. This means, the final functions Fi and Ti are not based on outside information, they are instinctual judgment attitudes stemming from within, but because they are primary in Pe types, Fi and Ti are always used in direct tandem with the moment, in momentary perception and interaction. Fi and Ti are always looking at things or working with things as they happen (Pe,) and that is how you identify the INxP. That is why the TiSe is often described as the "craftsman" and not the SiTe. A real SiTe can get the ISTP result on the MBTI, but thus be mistyped due to Myers's wrong J/P testing. That is why you also see INFJs relating to Fi, INFPs relating to Ni. We simply need to know the obvious, correct, "inherent" definition of J vs P, someone who has strong inward perception vs someone who has strong outward perception, and if you use it, you will inherently always be correct at typing.

    I agree with you that we should call J vs P something else: Je vs Pe. Because Pi types are not Judgers, and the Judging description in MBTI is not really correlated to Fe and Te. Personality seems to be a lot deeper than the attributing of "open" vs "planned" to individuals, when that really has nothing to do with Pe/Je. Especially for a lot of Ni dominants, "plans" are too concrete to fit N, and this is why numerous INxJs are mistyped into INxP. Being planned and organized will not ensure that you have a primary judgment function, as judgment is about a lot deeper things than structure.

    The mainstream may not understand the real type system, because it is for people who want to go deeper into the fundamental difference in types. Lenore Thomson wrote very in-depth profiles of each type. Very clear/obvious definitions. People should study them, and if you want me to post more, let me know.
    Last edited by Dashy CVII; 02-24-2018 at 12:44 AM.
    shhh

  3. #3
    Senior Member Clegane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashy CVII View Post
    Another way to word your post is, the descriptions of J/P in MBTI are misaligned to the actual extroverted function you use. You are correct. The MBTI test cannot accurately pinpoint which cognitive functions you use. That is because Myers-Briggs didn't think through what Pi and Pe really were and how they by definition tell J vs P.

    Lenore Thomson fixed this by defining J/P accurately, in a way that I think is obvious:

    When we refer to J/P, we temporarily in this discussion refer to the extroverted function. Ps (extroverted perceiving types) are those who live in-the-moment, processing outside information. Extroversion is about the outside, and extroverted perception is attuned to the outside information coming in. Introverted perception is mental perception, it is not outwardly attuned, and so Si for instance is not outward sensing, but inward concrete perception. The definition of Ne is seeing possibilities and predictions in the moment, being invested in what's really going on behind the curtain, what's going on over the hill or on an important problem we're solving: what we could try, and what people are really thinking. Ni is not about this or perceiving the outside, it neglects the moment and goes inward to focus on ideas, new perspectives for thinking, imagination, and deep possibilities. You're right in that these correlate to the Socionics types. ILI are not always Ps in MBTI. However ILIs are always Js in Lenore Thomson theory because she defines Js differently: as someone much more attuned to inward perceiving, incoming information in thought, than they are on the moment. She wrote a whole book on the logical clarifications to these dichotomies and what they really mean.

    Next, Fe and Te are outward functions, but not on perception. Fe and Te are about the world's judgement systems and beliefs, such as personal values vs truth/untruth beliefs. You cannot perceive with Fe and Te, you use them as say, resources, authorities, or inspiration. This means, the final functions Fi and Ti are not based on outside information, they are instinctual judgment attitudes stemming from within, but because they are primary in Pe types, Fi and Ti are always used in direct tandem with the moment, in momentary perception and interaction. Fi and Ti are always looking at things or working with things as they happen (Pe,) and that is how you identify the INxP. That is why the TiSe is often described as the "craftsman" and not the SiTe. A real SiTe can get the ISTP result on the MBTI, but thus be mistyped due to Myers's wrong J/P testing. That is why you also see INFJs relating to Fi, INFPs relating to Ni. We simply need to know the obvious, correct, "inherent" definition of J vs P, someone who has strong inward perception vs someone who has strong outward perception, and if you use it, you will inherently always be correct at typing.

    I agree with you that we should call J vs P something else: Je vs Pe. Because Pi types are not Judgers, and the Judging description in MBTI is not really correlated to Fe and Te. Personality seems to be a lot deeper than the attributing of "open" vs "planned" to individuals, when that really has nothing to do with Pe/Je. Being planned and organized will not ensure that you have a primary judgment function. Judgment is about a lot deeper things.

    The mainstream may not understand the real type system, because it is for people who want to go deeper into the fundamental difference in types. Lenore Thomson wrote very in-depth profiles of each type. Very clear/obvious definitions. People should study them, and if you want me to post more, let me know.
    I've never read such an useful post in this forum. I'm looking forward to more of them.

  4. #4

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    I couldn't agree more @Clegane . Only after getting deeper into socionics I realized why INFP has never been a good fit for me and why I can't ever type myself as an INFJ. Function wise, I'm an INFJ, but by no means I'm a J type, typing myself a J sounds like a big fat lie. I'm sure there're more people like me out there.

    Introverted perception is a p function mostly, I'm sure a lot of Ni and Si lead types score high on "P" in MBTI dichotomies, irrationality as how Jung described it, connects with P in MBTI far more than MBTI enthusiasts are willing to admit.

  5. #5
    Armchair Explorer Doctor Anaximander's Avatar
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    Identify with ILI/INTp in socionics, but with INTP in MBTI. MBTI describes J vs P differences as the difference between "type A" and "type B" personalities, with little nuance on what that really says about how we process incoming information. It's the most shallow/superficial and useless of the dichotomies in MBTI.

    Anyway, later.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Does "Se extroverted perception (Immersion)" vs "Si introverted perception (Memory)" have anything to do with P vs J? I do believe that the real functions are misportrayed by MBTI preference stereotypes, which is why I think you need to come to a choice about which one to study: you can't have both preference theory and function theory because they tend to be incompatible, and I can easily explain why: I will take my primary function, Introverted Intuition, and I mean by Ni very simply "the N dichotomy as it occurs as a primary function in an introvert (N defined in tests as processing information through patterns, impressions and possibilities, abstract thinking, reading between the lines.)" The Ni function is typically not met in an INxx with making predictions, having visions or plans of the future, and I say typically because, Ni is most common in INxPs. But it has little to do with P: the INxP just happen to be more common, and thus more Ni types are INxP. Instead, Ni seems to be usually compatible with a very open-ended, inwardly explorative lifestyle that may have nothing to do with planning (J) and certainly doesn't have anything to do with extroversion (Ne.)

    The difference between Ni and Ne therein is in the definition of the Introvert vs Extrovert: the Introverted Intuitive is someone dominantly focused on gaining inward abstract perceptions by reading into their mental state, ideas and manifestations, while the Extroverted Intuitive is someone focused on gaining abstract perceptions/intuitions in the external moment as it happens and as they read into it: about people, dynamics, changes, and what's really going on underlying an event--Just like, the Introverted Sensor is someone focused on gaining inward concrete perception by reading into internal memories, while the Extroverted Sensor is someone focused on gaining external concrete perceptions by immersing in the moment. It is all very clear, this is how Ni and Ne actually exist in individuals (the natural state of what Ni and Ne are), and they seem unbounded by T/F just like they're unbounded by J/P: these dichotomies only muddle what natural Ni/Ne are as they occur in individuals, all those primarily with a tendency of N > T/F >> S. In the same fashion, you see External Intuition in a lot of other NPs, who are very intuitive and concerned with perceiving the background meaning of the moment and its dynamics. That is basically that.

    Ni or Ne has everything to do with I vs E. If you're an ambiverted perceiver (such as an INxPs: Ne secondary/Si tertiary) you have have much more equal reign on perception. While everyone uses both Ni and Ne, one is typically stronger. For myself, my Ni is much stronger than Ne. As Lenore Thomson put it succinctly: "With Pi vs Pe, are you perceiving something in your mind, or something specifically underlying the external moment?" Thomson went on to define the J/P dichotomy accurately to Carl Jung, as I wrote out in my above post.
    shhh

  7. #7
    Senior Member Luigi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashy CVII View Post
    I do believe that the real functions are misportrayed by MBTI preference stereotypes, which is why I think you need to come to a choice about which one to study: you can't have both preference theory and function theory because they tend to be incompatible, and I can easily explain why: In the case of Introverted Intuition, my primary function, I mean by Ni very simply, "the N dichotomy as it occurs as a primary function in an introvert (N defined in tests as processing information through patterns, impressions and possibilities, abstract thinking, reading between the lines)," it is typically not met in an INxx with making predictions, having visions or plans of the future, and I say typically because, Ni is most common in INxPs, but it has little to do with P: INxPs just happen to be more common. Instead, Ni is usually compatible with a very open-ended, inwardly explorative lifestyle that might have nothing to do with planning (J) and certainly has nothing to do with extroversion (Ne.) The difference between Ni and Ne therein is in the definition of the Introvert vs Extrovert: the Introverted Intuitive is someone dominantly focused on gaining inward abstract perceptions by reading into their internal ideas/manifestations, while the Extroverted Intuitive is someone focused on gaining abstract perceptions/intuitions about the external moment as it happens and as they read into it: about people, dynamics, changes, and what's really happening underlying something--Just like, the Introverted Sensor is someone focused on gaining inward concrete perception by reading into internal memories, while the Extroverted Sensor is someone focused on gaining external concrete perceptions by immersing in the moment. It is all very clear, this is how Ni and Ne actually exist in individuals (the natural state of what Ni and Ne are), and they seem unbounded by T/F just like they're unbounded by J/P: these dichotomies only muddle what natural Ni/Ne are as they occur in individuals, all those primarily with a tendency of N > T/F >> S. In the same fashion, you see External Intuition in a lot of other NPs, who are very intuitive and concerned with perceiving the background meaning of the moment and its dynamics. That is basically that. Ni or Ne has everything to do with I vs E, and if you're an ambivert focused on both the mind and the moment, you have one Nx function, and one Jx function, and while everyone uses both Ni and Ne, one is typically stronger. For myself, my Ni is much stronger than Ne. As Lenore Thomson put it succinctly: "With Pi vs Pe, are you perceiving something general in your mind, or something specifically underlying the external moment?" Thomson went on to define the J/P dichotomy accurately to Carl Jung, as I wrote out in my above post.
    If you perceive something specific underlying the external moment, by perceiving something general in your mind, is that Pe then Pi, close together?
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    @The Penguin Let's look at ISxP and ISxJs as examples: Se vs Si (outward perception (Immersion) vs inward perception (Memory.) (a) First ask, do those definitions sound like they have anything to do with P vs J? But more importantly ask (b) Does an Si type use Se?

    In my experience, an ISxJ uses Se to access perception of the external world almost as much as they use Ne-inferior, but really, they're rather weak. A mix of Ne/Se is typically what their Si is made from, however, as a dominant Si type, they're so primarily focused on inward concrete perception that Pe tends to go underused.

    Next, for your example, we can compare ISxJ to an ISxP, who uses Se and Ni much more equally. Perception won't be their dominant focus, but they will fit your above example quite well, because their perception is very even: they don't have any inferior perception.

    As INTJs do we use Ni, Se, Ne? Yes. But Ni is so predominant that EP functions go vastly ignored. This would be way different for say, an INTP, who seeks immersion in intuiting their environment through Ne, and usage of memory (Si), both fairly equally. It might sound different from a textbook TiNe, but it is the natural TiNe as he/she exists in reality, in real people all around (and it actually is in a textbook.)
    shhh
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Luigi's Avatar
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    @Dashy CVII

    Thank you for rephrasing that. I didn't understand the first time.
    Now you answered my question in a way that I understand.

    ISFJ 6w7-9w1-2w1 sp/so | Neutral Good | Phlegmatic-Melancholic | Hufflepuff


  10. #10
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Upon realizing many patterns in the types, it seems that the Extroverted functions quite literally take on the nature of immersion, and the Introverted functions quite literally take on the nature of reflection, and they do so by existing in a duality as two sides of the same process: Fi-Te, Ti-Fe, Ni-Se, Si-Ne.

    We'll make a contrast first between the literally opposite perspectives, Ne/Si vs Ni/Se. Ni/Se types handle reality in a way that may seem stranger to Ne/Si, but it's all in perspective. Se takes a quite literal account of what's happening without any reading into a situation, so the Ni/Se type could find themselves often saying to the Ne type, "you know, that might be what's happening, I didn't see that, you're probably right" or "I'm skeptical of jumping to that conclusion." Ni's aim has always been different from seeing patterns externally and in dynamics, as it receives raw data from Se without anything added, then retreats inwardly to reflect in an abstract unapplied way, sometimes for days, but it never acts like Ne/Si by making frequent hunches/assumptions of externals (Ne) and reading into things sometimes as an ingenious talent of External Intuition, then Si accessing memory to see if it really has been so, or what other external possibilities there could be extrapolated from experience (Si.) This exact latter process, in a nutshell, seems like it should be the default process of a human, to realize the explicit truth and workings of things happening, but it is actually the opposite process of an Ni/Se type, whose daily obsession is not about matching up abstract external hunches with a sea of inner concrete data/experience, but about finding implicit deeper truth and meaning from a reflection of raw sensation of reality.

    Instead, Ni takes an enlongated, philosophical and impilcit approach to understanding reality, and Se sees and immerses fully into raw data as it is, so comfortably in-the-moment without wandering or putting much together but an appreciation of rawness (Se.) But once it latches firmly onto a big-picture concept that shocks oneself, it doesn't apply it specifically and say "see, here is the concrete proof of what's going on now (Ne/Si.) I solved it!" It instead solves a situation by interpreting it within its larger web of perception, "I solved what this means to me" or "what it could imply in a subject" (Ni out of context due to being anti-external) as it retreats deeper into its ideations of what a certain reality might entail as a bigger idea or truth, and over what personal lesson it takes away into the rest of their day's reflection (Ni.) It isn't explicitly applied to solve or conceive of what's really happening, like an Ne/Si does through seeing external patterns and imagery: The Ne/Si type goes into reflection by accessing all concrete data and information they know to be true (Si) so precisely without muddling it with abstract leaps unrelated to the moment, like Ni does, and where they shine is through seeing what really is behind a moment (Ne), reading dynamics and minds, seeing so easily the underlying patterns, something Ni is disinterested/shied away from, as, for Ni, these ideas are not internal and general enough to be applied to a slow pace of reflection upon a bigger-picture conceptual philosophy, or lessons and generalities about subjects and life (Ni.) We use all the functions to a degree.

    The definitions of the processes Ne, Ni, Se, Si are precisely, Intuition of Immersion, Intuition of Reflection, Sensing of Immersion, and Sensing of Reflection. We know the latter two as accurately defined in MBTI: Immersion (Se) and Memory (Si,) but they got it wrong on the first two, and neither of these four in total have anything to do with J vs P lifestyles.


    Fi-Te and Ti-Fe work in this same pattern of duality, of internal reflection to external immersion, back-and-forth, as one function makes up the internal life, and the other makes up the external application. And we know, we also less frequently use the process opposite to ours, when we need to learn more, but it's not our default pose.
    shhh
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