[Fi] Fi, Why Are You So Dependent On Others?

[PeaceBaby]

If the OP doesn't apply to you, then don't take it personally just because you are strong with Fi.

Classic Ti deflection - it's not me, it's you.

Honestly, what is your purpose here? You aren't using the right tools to figure this out.

 

[Poki]

Classic Ti deflection - it's not me, it's you.

Honestly, what is your purpose here? You aren't using the right tools to figure this out.

he isnt going about it the right way either. he is stuck down a path perception wise which leads to very focused very narrow framing of everything.

 

[Poki]

I believe repression can exist for any type. Isn't that what the inferior function is all about? Fe in the inferior leads to the repression of social values, mainly of a feeling of being a socially responsible individual, or better, as a citizen defined as an individual considered in the context of a community with rules, values, and traditions for each individual to follow. As Ti-dominant, I question their logic and their necessity in a skeptical fashion, and I question their value for me. But then the question is, what motivates this skepticism? That would depend on the individual, but for me the real, hard-nosed skepticism began in early adolescence via some disappointing circumstances.

The enneagram is more useful in rooting out the source of the motivations as it is primarily concerned with motivation in general. As a triple withdrawn type, my tritype is 549. So, considering the average to unhealthy levels of development, we know that 5 is the socially withdrawn type anyway, so its abilities in the social realm are in the primitive or immature range. The 4, as a dependent type, has a feeling of needing to be taken care of by having needs met by others, and of being exempt from and even above the laws of nature (the archetypical Starving Artist). The 9, as another dependent type, is profoundly neglectful of the human need to be assertive, represses anger, and becomes passive-aggressive as a result.

use Se and you dont have to question anything. you will simply see why. until you see why your logic is gonna stay confused due to lack of data. sounds like Ti Ni loop or something.

 

[Mal12345]

why?

ever taken a belief/pet theory and turned it upside down/considered it's inverse to be true instead, and the ramifications that would have for your entire belief system/thinking process, for example the reasoning, which conceived the belief under consideration to begin with. note that actor or node in this process can be self referencing, and/or symbolic/meta ie it can be itself, or an entire other node/concept, of any magnitude (in terms of content and referencing).

I don't know what they "why" question was referencing, and the spoilered part (why did you spoil it? Because it's off-topic?) seems to be asking me to try a certain technique, kind of like doing things in reality backward that I take for granted such as putting my shoes and pants on starting from the right side.

 

[Mal12345]

Classic Ti deflection - it's not me, it's you.

Honestly, what is your purpose here? You aren't using the right tools to figure this out.

Ok, thanks for your input on that. As for deflecting, perhaps I should ask you what you are doing here.

 

[Mal12345]

I wonder if you would care to hear real life scenarios of Ti-doms who are psychologically repressed? Many have little capacity to feel their own emotions. I knew one who was a good guy, but incapable of feeling anger or attachment. His mother was very pushy and I think he was quite angry at her, but subconsciously didn't feel justified expressing it. Any sign of emotional conflict and he would retreat. His mode for passive aggression was avoidance to the point of emotional abandonment and neglect. When his wife of 15 years left, he had very little feeling about it. She asked how he felt about her moving into an apartment down the street and he said he did not know how he felt, and asked how she felt about it. His wife had sunken into clinical depression that inhibited her functioning because she could not reach him through repeated attempts. The dynamic was one in which she had almost no significance. He would not connect to her in any fashion to the point of it almost being autistic in nature.

I had a close friend who lived for six years with a INTP who had rage in his repression. His ability to think in abstract systems was flawless and enlightened. He was curious about the mathematical proofs of altruism and had theories about social justice. He could only have sex if he inflicted pain on his partner, watched very sadistic porn, but would recoil and flinch when my friend would playfully tickle him. That defined their emotional exchange. He was extremely dominant and forceful in his will and needs, but would call her cruel if she didn't comply. He constantly played manipulative games that were emotionally cruel, but if he told the story you would feel absolute pity for the sufferings of his life. Online the most aggressive Ti-doms have that exact same dynamic. Level the mildest criticism at them and they will respond with a sledge-hammer of cruel words. Just visit a Ti-dom forum if you want to see it in action, or if you want to see a shaming thread that drags some poor mentally ill person through the mud publicly because they have "annoyed" the INTPs there. In my reading and experience I have seen the absolute cruelest game playing come from Ti-doms. It isn't just an endearing lack of social conformity, no, it is logically derived manipulation to achieve their psychologically suppressed rage.

I'm very interested in real-life scenarios. But the INFPs who dominate this forum don't like them for some reason.

I don't want to be accused of playing psychiatrist again. But the guy in the first paragraph sounds like a Schizoid 9 who is, in this case, a Ti-dominant (I presume) who is profoundly repressed while having its source in mommy issues (fear of attachment to a mother figure - neglect of the nurturing soul inside oneself, the inability to nurture oneself and others). I don't know what else to say, except that for the people in your two examples my only guidance would be to say "whatever your little game is, don't hurt others while you're playing it, and try not to break any laws."

I visit a Facebook INTP forum on the daily. I can't speak for the cruel ones, but if they're really over the top I simply take advantage of the block feature there. I know that's not your point which was to say that Ti can be worse than Fi. My own viewpoint is that Fi can be and is worse than Ti when it comes to forum etiquette because the nagging just never ends until someone tells them they are right. This placates them somehow, but at least it works.

 

[Mal12345]

I wonder about the fixation on the negative myself; perhaps it is that, by fixating on a negative image, we project its inverse, positivity, into the situation, so that it is in balance overall, and that by a quasi-meditation on the negativity, allow ourselves to prevent such an experience in the future?

I too try to see the positive at all times in people; when I do say negative thing, usually I will have a positive goal in mind, like playing Devil's Advocate. Oftentimes it completely backfires, and I neglect to factor in how seriously others may be taking the interaction.

When I do see negativity in another person, I attempt to reframe it; how it is the by-product of something else positive, how it is actually minor, how the negativity itself could be seen in a positive light. I try to accept my pain, and shortcomings, however it can be difficult dealing with the pressure that pain brings.

As far as I can tell, and from my experience, you're on the right track psychologically speaking.

 

[Jaguar]

Shouldn't you be bitching at the female ISFP who set you off?

 

[Mal12345]

use Fe and you dont have to question anything. you will simply see why. until you see why your logic is gonna stay confused due to lack of data. sounds like Ti Ni loop or something.

My job has forced me down that path to an extent.

 

[Mal12345]

Shouldn't you be bitching at the female ISFP who set you off?

My wife didn't set me off, if that's what you mean. But her dysfunctional Te has been a problem.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Ok, thanks for your input on that. As for deflecting, perhaps I should ask you what you are doing here.

I can help parse the emotional strata using a toolset most appropriate for the job.

Unless you're more interested in sharing your declarative statements about Fi. If so, enjoy.

Or venting, sure, go for it.

Perhaps though, you are looking for validation and wish to cherry-pick data. If so, enjoy that too.

Your OP however, seems to point to some particular issue in your life, as it contains much obvious and repressed emotion in and of itself.

So, if you want to understand that, let me know.

 

[Mal12345]

I can help parse the emotional strata using a toolset most appropriate for the job.

Unless you're more interested in sharing your declarative statements about Fi. If so, enjoy.

Or venting, sure, go for it.

Perhaps though, you are looking for validation and wish to cherry-pick data. If so, enjoy that too.

Your OP however, seems to point to some particular issue in your life, as it contains much obvious and repressed emotion in and of itself.

So, if you want to understand that, let me know.

That was a rather defensive strategy to take. Ok. I'll just explain that I have a series of threads on this topic, so I'm not picking on any type and especially not on any person in particular.

 

[PeaceBaby]

That was a rather defensive strategy to take. Ok. I'll just explain that I have a series of threads on this topic, so I'm not picking on any type and especially not on any person in particular.

My point was more that if you wanted to be declarative or vent, I couldn't really add to that or discuss it, since you were pursuing an alternate agenda.

However, if you had a problem that needed understanding or solving, I would be happy to help.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'm very interested in real-life scenarios. But the INFPs who dominate this forum don't like them for some reason.

I don't want to be accused of playing psychiatrist again. But the guy in the first paragraph sounds like a Schizoid 9 who is, in this case, a Ti-dominant (I presume) who is profoundly repressed while having its source in mommy issues (fear of attachment to a mother figure - neglect of the nurturing soul inside oneself, the inability to nurture oneself and others). I don't know what else to say, except that for the people in your two examples my only guidance would be to say "whatever your little game is, don't hurt others while you're playing it, and try not to break any laws."

I visit a Facebook INTP forum on the daily. I can't speak for the cruel ones, but if they're really over the top I simply take advantage of the block feature there. I know that's not your point which was to say that Ti can be worse than Fi. My own viewpoint is that Fi can be and is worse than Ti when it comes to forum etiquette because the nagging just never ends until someone tells them they are right. This placates them somehow, but at least it works.

I want to be clear when I communicate about horrible scenarios it is not to prove something worse or better than the other, but when I see a theory that is skewed enough that I know it cannot account for the anecdotal data points I know to be true, I offer the descriptions to provide data for the person to consider.

I don't think that two individuals repressing emotion can demonstrate the behavior of an entire category of people. That is why I don't start threads with criticisms that contain details that are not necessarily representative of a type, but true of specific individuals. I do think that INTPs have an inclination to repress at least some emotion as a normal manifestation of their type. If a person is at ease with their emotions and expresses them freely, does that sound like a point that implies they are an INTP? Oh, she smiles alot and loves to talk about her feelings. Definitely an INTP. Apathy and being out of touch with one's own emotions is a fairly normal INTP issue which they discuss amongst themselves. When they are angry there is a tendency to withdraw or play calculated, manipulative games. That is how Ti deals with anger. It plays a game of making the anger logically credible even to the point of a distorted, untrue perspective. It turns something irrational, intangible, and incomprehensible into an interesting logic game.

There is no way to measure if that is better or worse than how an INFP might repress emotion. If you offer the criticism it is good to consider how it also applies to your own category. This demonstrates fairness of mind.

 

[Mal12345]

I want to be clear when I communicate about horrible scenarios it is not to prove something worse or better than the other, but when I see a theory that is skewed enough that I know it cannot account for the anecdotal data points I know to be true, I offer the descriptions to provide data for the person to consider.

I don't think that two individuals repressing emotion can demonstrate the behavior of an entire category of people. That is why I don't start threads with criticisms that contain details that are not necessarily representative of a type, but true of specific individuals. I do think that INTPs have an inclination to repress at least some emotion as a normal manifestation of their type. If a person is at ease with their emotions and expresses them freely, does that sound like a point that implies they are an INTP? Oh, she smiles alot and loves to talk about her feelings. Definitely an INTP. Apathy and being out of touch with one's own emotions is a fairly normal INTP issue which they discuss amongst themselves. When they are angry there is a tendency to withdraw or play calculated, manipulative games. That is how Ti deals with anger. It plays a game of making the anger logically credible even to the point of a distorted, untrue perspective. It turns something irrational, intangible, and incomprehensible into an interesting logic game.

There is no way to measure if that is better or worse than how an INFP might repress emotion. If you offer the criticism it is good to consider how it also applies to your own category. This demonstrates fairness of mind.

I don't identify with many of the things you describe about INTPs. Is that your point?

 

[Mal12345]

My point was more that if you wanted to be declarative or vent, I couldn't really add to that or discuss it, since you were pursuing an alternate agenda.

However, if you had a problem that needed understanding or solving, I would be happy to help.

Agenda? I'm not the "agenda" type.

 

[Reborn Relic]

Why is this attributed to Fi, though? If anything, I would picture the archetypal Fi dominant as using fake, twisted logic to justify whatever they happened to feel at that time because ultimately they wouldn't have enough respect for logic to view it as anything more than a tool for their own passions. What you're describing seems like an unhealthy Fe honestly.

(Healthy Fe, of course, can be different from that.)

Is it a thing where the Fi misses having an individual self and so creates a fantasy of one? If so I might be INFP honestly, hah.

 

[entropie]

Over the years I've read a lot of complaints about terrible Si types and those horrible INTJs, but those criticisms are usually being leveled by Fi types who have their own evil tendencies.

You seem to be soooo independent, but you're not. You only think you are. At one point in your life you truly were independent, your values were set and stable; but then you lost confidence in them, in yourself. And now it's gone and you don't want it to be that way. So you lead a life of subtle pretense which fools nobody but yourself. You need people yet you despise them at the same time because they make your neediness more obvious. And it's not just people in general, you need specific people to be reliant upon you and never leave, just as you rely on them to help dispel your feelings of abandonment. You curse them and cast them out, and then either come crawling back or manipulate them into taking you back. These shameless manipulations are a cover up for a deeper lie: you are a charlatan, an intellectual and emotional fraud without a single original idea to call your own. You would like to believe they are original to you, but you plagiarized them from someone else, usually one person who serves as the secret source. At best, you would call that person an influence; but "cause" is a better word for it. In other words, you are effect of someone else's reality, and have no individual existence to call your own.

I am more dependant than Fi's on others. And you are not alone You Are Not Alone (Jon Lajoie) - YouTube

 

[Mal12345]

Why is this attributed to Fi, though? If anything, I would picture the archetypal Fi dominant as using fake, twisted logic to justify whatever they happened to feel at that time because ultimately they wouldn't have enough respect for logic to view it as anything more than a tool for their own passions. What you're describing seems like an unhealthy Fe honestly.

(Healthy Fe, of course, can be different from that.)

Is it a thing where the Fi misses having an individual self and so creates a fantasy of one? If so I might be INFP honestly, hah.

I didn't say that other types can't be manipulative. But the motives are different. The Fi type is dependent on others, sometimes to the extent that it can be called a morbid dependency. Manipulation is a way of getting personal needs met in such a way that it does not "offend" those the Fi type depends on.

- - - Updated - - -

I am more dependant than Fi's on others. And you are not alone You Are Not Alone (Jon Lajoie) - YouTube

Dependence is not always type related either.

 

[Haven]

OP seems like it's more about type 6 than anything else