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Dear Fe User,

Lord Lavender

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I've never been a big fan of this thread or similar ones, but perhaps someone should start the counterpart judging threads? Some people are wanting to criticize Fi, but no one has started a thread. Perhaps that would be helpful? One for Ti or Te?

Ive been thinking that myself actually as Fe seems to be hated the most but Fi, Ti and Te are all also functions that could be taken the wrong way.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Here's a link to Jung's description of Fe

[ESFJ] Jung's Description of the Extraverted Feeling Type (Fe-dominant)

 

Siúil a Rúin

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Dear Fe User,
After re-reading Jung's description of the function and how it uses external sense of context and appropriateness to define the aesthetic value of an object, along with it's basis in social harmony and appropriateness, do you think it's a reasonable leap to suggest Fe is the function most responsible for establishing and stabilizing a sense of culture? Without Fe, what would culture be like and how would it be defined?

Edit: I know that people can internalize a completely individualized sense of their larger culture, but I'm wondering about the existence of the cultural norms in the first place as resting on a foundation of Fe. Is there a way that Si establishes it also, or is that one of the individualized ways of internalizing the larger, external context?
 

PeaceBaby

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Ive been thinking that myself actually as Fe seems to be hated the most but Fi, Ti and Te are all also functions that could be taken the wrong way.

Most of the Fe doms and auxs I know are much admired and loved. And even those who inspire more of a "love-hate" feeling in the general population have supporters who are passionate about them.

Fe is not the most hated function, not by a long-shot. It is imo the most loved.

The fact that this thread exists is more a testament to the fact that Fe can be both a positive and negative force. As a thinking pattern, imo it's most difficult for Fe users to see themselves as fueling bad outcomes for others, since they (often) believe themselves to be so oriented to others and so altruistically driven that a bad outcome is virtually impossible. And, this thinking pattern has the most difficulty (even more than Te) at seeing outcomes produced by other forms of thinking patterns as being "acceptable".

So, if Fe has to take a little heat around the forum, well, is it honestly that difficult for Fe users to believe that the thinking patterns that serve them so well irl just aren't "one-size fits all" and don't solve every problem? Exploration of the differences and occasional aggravations on an internet forum with a little discomfort arising from that pales in comparison to the kind of admiration that real-life rewards them with in abundance at times.

So, this type of statement is simply false.
 

Norrsken

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[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], one could argue, of course, that the societal temperature are accepting more Fi values than Fe values. This is the case with the "Everybody is unique" mindset that is pushed by the political progressives, which of course I am not arguing that they are wrong or bad for thinking that, but I do notice that any groupthink or hivemind activities are falling into a pit stop of endless criticism since we now value individuality more and more nowadays. What do you think about that?
 

Lord Lavender

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Most of the Fe doms and auxs I know are much admired and loved. And even those who inspire more of a "love-hate" feeling in the general population have supporters who are passionate about them.

Fe is not the most hated function, not by a long-shot. It is imo the most loved.

The fact that this thread exists is more a testament to the fact that Fe can be both a positive and negative force. As a thinking pattern, imo it's most difficult for Fe users to see themselves as fueling bad outcomes for others, since they (often) believe themselves to be so oriented to others and so altruistically driven that a bad outcome is virtually impossible. And, this thinking pattern has the most difficulty (even more than Te) at seeing outcomes produced by other forms of thinking patterns as being "acceptable".

So, if Fe has to take a little heat around the forum, well, is it honestly that difficult for Fe users to believe that the thinking patterns that serve them so well irl just aren't "one-size fits all" and don't solve every problem? Exploration of the differences and occasional aggravations on an internet forum with a little discomfort arising from that pales in comparison to the kind of admiration that real-life rewards them with in abundance at times.

So, this type of statement is simply false.

Fe isnt as rewarded IRL as you think it is. It does come with disadvantages as well like falling into group morals and falling to peer pressure for the more unhealthy user's. I do envy Fis abillty to have some Independence from social norms plus you guys can really form deep bonds with others which I do lack at times. Fi users have Te also which has a similar relationship to Ti users as being hivemindy so both Fe/Ti and Te/Fi can run into problems if the parties are not mature or balanced.
 

thepink-cloakedninja

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Most of the Fe doms and auxs I know are much admired and loved. And even those who inspire more of a "love-hate" feeling in the general population have supporters who are passionate about them.

Fe is not the most hated function, not by a long-shot. It is imo the most loved.

The fact that this thread exists is more a testament to the fact that Fe can be both a positive and negative force. As a thinking pattern, imo it's most difficult for Fe users to see themselves as fueling bad outcomes for others, since they (often) believe themselves to be so oriented to others and so altruistically driven that a bad outcome is virtually impossible. And, this thinking pattern has the most difficulty (even more than Te) at seeing outcomes produced by other forms of thinking patterns as being "acceptable".

So, if Fe has to take a little heat around the forum, well, is it honestly that difficult for Fe users to believe that the thinking patterns that serve them so well irl just aren't "one-size fits all" and don't solve every problem? Exploration of the differences and occasional aggravations on an internet forum with a little discomfort arising from that pales in comparison to the kind of admiration that real-life rewards them with in abundance at times.

So, this type of statement is simply false.

Where's my group of fanatic supporters? I wants a squad!!!
 

Siúil a Rúin

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What would it change for you, if Fe were popular or not?
Interesting question.
I suppose it would provide an explanation for how the external world operates. I don't have a personal identity of using Fe, after reading Jung, so it would mostly influence my understanding of the world. However, I suppose that if having the capacity to make a positive impact on people is not related to Fe, but something anyone can do, then I would feel like I should be better at figuring out how to move forward professionally and that the real reason I have run into some significant limitations is because I'm lazy or have some other character flaw? Although to balance that, I can't picture myself in the midst of social interaction - I'm uncomfortable with too much social impact whether positive or negative. I suppose if it were determined that positive social impact is function related, then I couldn't use it as a reason for when I don't manage to pull that off.

I don't have a settled opinion on the subject. I can think of examples of people who are very skilled with Fe being able to apply that socially to get positive results. My impression of some of our newer Fe-users on the forum has been almost a feeling of surprise at just how socially skilled they actually are. For years I've interacted online with some feeling that we're all kinda nerds around here, but I've seen a handful of clear Fe-users who are socially masterful. It has made me re-calibrate with a feeling of "whoah, so that's what we've been talking about".

I don't know about the blanket statement of Fe having a more positive impact socially in a consistent way. Maybe it is true - I don't dismiss it, but am just uncertain about it. I think my main employer is a Fe-dom, although there is a Te feeling about her as well. She is admired, but very much feared. Some people hate her for her assertive nature. It seems like Fe makes the most social impact, whether positive or negative, so perhaps there is a natural human inclination to make a positive impact and so the majority of times it does?
 

entropie

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Interesting question.
I suppose it would provide an explanation for how the external world operates. I don't have a personal identity of using Fe, after reading Jung, so it would mostly influence my understanding of the world. However, I suppose that if having the capacity to make a positive impact on people is not related to Fe, but something anyone can do, then I would feel like I should be better at figuring out how to move forward professionally and that the real reason I have run into some significant limitations is because I'm lazy or have some other character flaw? Although to balance that, I can't picture myself in the midst of social interaction - I'm uncomfortable with too much social impact whether positive or negative. I suppose if it were determined that positive social impact is function related, then I couldn't use it as a reason for when I don't manage to pull that off.

I don't have a settled opinion on the subject. I can think of examples of people who are very skilled with Fe being able to apply that socially to get positive results. My impression of some of our newer Fe-users on the forum has been almost a feeling of surprise at just how socially skilled they actually are. For years I've interacted online with some feeling that we're all kinda nerds around here, but I've seen a handful of clear Fe-users who are socially masterful. It has made me re-calibrate with a feeling of "whoah, so that's what we've been talking about".

I don't know about the blanket statement of Fe having a more positive impact socially in a consistent way. Maybe it is true - I don't dismiss it, but am just uncertain about it. I think my main employer is a Fe-dom, although there is a Te feeling about her as well. She is admired, but very much feared. Some people hate her for her assertive nature. It seems like Fe makes the most social impact, whether positive or negative, so perhaps there is a natural human inclination to make a positive impact and so the majority of times it does?

I only understand half of what you said, cause I am drunk and you talk like an intp. I never understand those.

An explanation to how the world operates you will never get. The World is dynamic and a system like mbti only holds truth as long as someone really is fullfilling his type predictions. If he is emotionally aroused and you dont know it, he may show traits of different types and then there is the concept of free will. Everyone is free to break with his type restraints and if he knows about that, he can even play with that fact and with you. Therefore forget about making rules for the World, one cant trust them.
Fe people basically care a lot for other people and want to be part of the social commune. They do that by empathy and finding out what others like. They invest a lot of their time into finding out what others want. But with age they make shortcuts as well. They build type clusters for themselves, they sometimes put new people they get to know into, based on a previous person they knew that was similiar. That makes them different from Fi's. Fi's value individuality and they bond with people who do so too. Fi has a great knowledge about how the self interacts with the World and derives it wisdom from it, while Fe derives the wisdom from how others react to the I.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I only understand half of what you said, cause I am drunk and you talk like an intp. I never understand those.

An explanation to how the world operates you will never get. The World is dynamic and a system like mbti only holds truth as long as someone really is fullfilling his type predictions. If he is emotionally aroused and you dont know it, he may show traits of different types and then there is the concept of free will. Everyone is free to break with his type restraints and if he knows about that, he can even play with that fact and with you. Therefore forget about making rules for the World, one cant trust them.
Fe people basically care a lot for other people and want to be part of the social commune. They do that by empathy and finding out what others like. They invest a lot of their time into finding out what others want. But with age they make shortcuts as well. They build type clusters for themselves, they sometimes put new people they get to know into, based on a previous person they knew that was similiar. That makes them different from Fi's. Fi's value individuality and they bond with people who do so too. Fi has a great knowledge about how the self interacts with the World and derives it wisdom from it, while Fe derives the wisdom from how others react to the I.
I'm about to be drunk and you talk like an ENTP.

Well, I suppose the simplest thing to say is that if someone does everything you describe, then it would seem like people would like them for it. That would make Fe the most loved function.

I suppose a lot of my confusion is that it often looks to me like there are fundamentally different versions of the judging functions. Sometimes I'll think to say something or form an opinion about a judging function, but then can think of examples of subcategories that are quite different. I understand what you are talking about with your Fe description and can think of examples of people who are actually that thoughtful and kind. I can also think of versions of something that is likely Fe that seems fundamentally different. For that reason, it is really difficult to make the generalizations because it seems like a lot of conflicting possibilities are actually true.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Fe people basically care a lot for other people and want to be part of the social commune. They do that by empathy and finding out what others like. They invest a lot of their time into finding out what others want. But with age they make shortcuts as well. They build type clusters for themselves, they sometimes put new people they get to know into, based on a previous person they knew that was similiar. That makes them different from Fi's. Fi's value individuality and they bond with people who do so too. Fi has a great knowledge about how the self interacts with the World and derives it wisdom from it, while Fe derives the wisdom from how others react to the I.

:yes:

I see Fi complain when Fe doesn't take their individuality into as much consideration as it should. Fe relates solutions to Fi through Ti and Fe but Ti is subjective. So, the very approach to solution is tainted from the start because the Fe user has its own subjectivity of what works.

But what works may not align with what the Fi user is dealing with and Fe skips over finding out what that is because they are solution based to "fix" make it better, ease, etc.

So Fi (as an individual) isn't heard by themselves but through others (Fe). Which reinforces Fi frustration and alienation. Which makes them super pissed off. Also, they don't need the same kind of solution Fe desires. At least, not without tailoring it to them specifically.

You get hard-headed Fi Fe users together and it's the death of a thousand cuts without either of them trying to hurt the other.
 

entropie

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I'm about to be drunk and you talk like an ENTP.

Well, I suppose the simplest thing to say is that if someone does everything you describe, then it would seem like people would like them for it. That would make Fe the most loved function.

I suppose a lot of my confusion is that it often looks to me like there are fundamentally different versions of the judging functions. Sometimes I'll think to say something or form an opinion about a judging function, but then can think of examples of subcategories that are quite different. I understand what you are talking about with your Fe description and can think of examples of people who are actually that thoughtful and kind. I can also think of versions of something that is likely Fe that seems fundamentally different. For that reason, it is really difficult to make the generalizations because it seems like a lot of conflicting possibilities are actually true.

:)

Whatever happens, its almost propably the worst idea to ask the entp about Fe :/ :).
 

PeaceBaby

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[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], one could argue, of course, that the societal temperature are accepting more Fi values than Fe values. This is the case with the "Everybody is unique" mindset that is pushed by the political progressives, which of course I am not arguing that they are wrong or bad for thinking that, but I do notice that any groupthink or hivemind activities are falling into a pit stop of endless criticism since we now value individuality more and more nowadays. What do you think about that?

What you're seeing is what Fi values look like when adopted by Fe en masse. Processes of transition like this happen all the time. The current societal temperature does loosely give Fi a bit more licence, yes. But, ironically and conversely, Fi does not oppose the values of community and group, as you seem to be saying above. Fi does not elevate individuality when it sacrifices other values that are deemed more paramount.

Fe isnt as rewarded IRL as you think it is. It does come with disadvantages as well like falling into group morals and falling to peer pressure for the more unhealthy user's. I do envy Fis abillty to have some Independence from social norms plus you guys can really form deep bonds with others which I do lack at times. Fi users have Te also which has a similar relationship to Ti users as being hivemindy so both Fe/Ti and Te/Fi can run into problems if the parties are not mature or balanced.

You've made an illogical jump. Nowhere did I say there weren't disadvantages.

One is always the master to his own luck

Indeed, one must play to one's own strengths.

Where's my group of fanatic supporters? I wants a squad!!!

Here I am :hug:
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Talking positively or negatively about people inside a large category is a bit like shooting a rabbit with a shotgun, yes, you will hit the target, but there is a lot of collateral damage.

I wrestle with this question of Fe, and I can see why it comes into focus, but I'll try to explain my reaction to threads like this (coming from a loooooong history of these discussions). There are fundamentally different kinds of people who identify as Fe, and in the past I could mostly only see the kinds I was most closely connected to. There is a type of person who is accommodating, they enjoy peaceful interactions with people, and they are quite genuine in their motives. Sometimes even Fi-users who are like this will identify as a Fe-user, and sometimes the people are definitely using Fe, but in a gentle way. These types of people actually have a type of social vulnerability that is *more* pronounced than in the other judging functions.

There are also people who are very dominant socially, will manipulate others to get what they desire, they will play complex social games, they will make exaggerated or false statements to impress people, and they will always get the upper hand, but they know how to do it and come off smelling like a rose. There are people who have the social mastery to convince everyone around them that they are loving and charitable, but whose motivations are selfish.

So, if you take the approach to push back against the people at this more aggressive, manipulative end of the spectrum, but include the gentler, more authentic folks at the other, you can do damage. It can be a false and unkind position. This is going to be way too much information, but years ago there was an ENTP on the forums here who was *really* angry at his infj ex-girlfriend, so he made quite an impact attacking infjs in general. He was eventually banned for crossing lines, but at the time a lot of people hopped on his bandwagon of rage. His approach to manipulation and word twisting was very similar to an abusive partner I was living with at the time, and I was identifying as an INFJ at the time, along with other of the more authentic, non-aggressive members of the forum. He was reiterating some significant psychological damage I was experiencing at home and so became the single worst online experience I have ever encountered. That period of Fe-criticism was damaging to me, and is still a trigger when it is directed at some of the people who are still my friends from that time whom I think are not deserving of that twisted, manipulative categorical rage. I have a couple of friends here whom I feel more protective of than they know, and so when people passive-aggressively attack them, it is all I can do to not "overstate" my response, so I choose to avoid certain people when they are doing that, and make general passive-aggressive statements not directed at any one individual, but describes the way that ENTP and others cause damage.

So, I don't want to dismiss the need for people to provide reality checks for the aggressive, manipulate, forceful, and fake manifestations of Fe as a judging function, but I also am not on board with including a subset of the Fe category which includes people who are none of those things and who could be damaged by incessantly forcing that negative stereotype onto them. It is necessary to realize that if a negative trait correlates with Fe, it does not follow that it is a trait that every person who identifies with Fe is secretly using it. If "fake" is a trait to correlate with Fe, it does not follow that every Fe-user has the capacity to be a "fake". It's more complex than that. I still have a hard time trusting the people that hopped on the bandwagon of that rageful manipulator who created an abstract reiteration of the worst years of my life. It still feels like they'd hop on that bandwagon of my concrete experience of abuse as well and think nothing of exacerbating the worst emotional pain (edit I don't think that, but it feels that way). Of course I can be accused of being too sensitive, and perhaps I am, but I offer this description as something that can represent someone's experience. It has happened to others and they just haven't posted about it here or in another thread.

The problem with attacking Fe is that the more hardened, aggressive versions of it are the least likely to hear it, and the more gentle, authentic, accommodating versions of it will likely internalize all of the shit. I'm definitely not suggesting people don't talk about it, because people should talk about it. Even professional counselors say that conflicts resolve better when people just keep talking, even when they say the wrong things, because eventually the truth ends up in the mix and can be found.
 

Smilephantomhive

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When it comes to mbti, the grass is always greener on the other side. Your type has the most difficult time adjusting with society, and it's easier for everyone else. The whole of society does not inherently favor one type. You may feel like your type is the most hated because you are so self absorbed, and interpreting bad things that happen to your on others views on your type. Well some problems are type related, but people assume more problems are type related than they really are.
 
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