Dear Fe User,

[Z Buck McFate]

I loved this whole post, the whole thing about hitting a lot of people with 'constructive criticism' because of the few (and the few it's actually aimed at are the last ones to hear it anyway, meanwhile the people who DO listen have taken in something to consider that isn't meant for them) and have just a few thoughts to add:

There are also people who are very dominant socially, will manipulate others to get what they desire, they will play complex social games, they will make exaggerated or false statements to impress people, and they will always get the upper hand, but they know how to do it and come off smelling like a rose. There are people who have the social mastery to convince everyone around them that they are loving and charitable, but whose motivations are selfish.

And honestly, this^ happens all across the spectrum. However much someone comes off 'smelling like a rose'- that might have something to do with type, but it still isn't a universal thing that one type 'comes off smelling like a rose' than others. For example, NFPs will push this behavior, may tend to come off smelling like a rose to TJs but it will make other types seeth. NFJs may come off smelling like a rose to certain types, as a general tendency, while making other types seeth. And there will be exceptions. Same goes with SFJs and SFPs- and even the thinkers have their own version of 'dominating' over others that work on some, not on others. But my point is, I don't even thing the behavior above is necessarily Fe. I read that and instantly think Ne, because that's where I see it most. (Emphasis on knowing I'm only speaking for myself.)

So, if you take the approach to push back against the people at this more aggressive, manipulative end of the spectrum, but include the gentler, more authentic folks at the other, you can do damage. It can be a false and unkind position. This is going to be way too much information, but years ago there was an ENTP on the forums here who was *really* angry at his infj ex-girlfriend, so he made quite an impact attacking infjs in general. He was eventually banned for crossing lines, but at the time a lot of people hopped on his bandwagon of rage. His approach to manipulation and word twisting was very similar to an abusive partner I was living with at the time, and I was identifying as an INFJ at the time, along with other of the more authentic, non-aggressive members of the forum. He was reiterating some significant psychological damage I was experiencing at home and so became the single worst online experience I have ever encountered.

Holy shit, yes. I was in a relationship with a really manipulative ENTP for almost ten years. (And talk about types that can dominate, play complex social cames and come off smelling like a rose to INFJs... not all of them, but damn). And this whole stretch of time did very bad things to me too. If it were the first time I were dealing with that brand of behavior (it doesn't matter if the conscious intent wasn't to manipulate, it felt incredibly manipulative regardless), it probably wouldn't have had the effect it did. But it took me years to recognize that kind of behavior as abusive the first time I dealt with it. Even catching glimpses of it now causes a really bad effect in me.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Talking positively or negatively about people inside a large category is a bit like shooting a rabbit with a shotgun, yes, you will hit the target, but there is a lot of collateral damage.

I wrestle with this question of Fe, and I can see why it comes into focus, but I'll try to explain my reaction to threads like this (coming from a loooooong history of these discussions). There are fundamentally different kinds of people who identify as Fe, and in the past I could mostly only see the kinds I was most closely connected to. There is a type of person who is accommodating, they enjoy peaceful interactions with people, and they are quite genuine in their motives. Sometimes even Fi-users who are like this will identify as a Fe-user, and sometimes the people are definitely using Fe, but in a gentle way. These types of people actually have a type of social vulnerability that is *more* pronounced than in the other judging functions.

There are also people who are very dominant socially, will manipulate others to get what they desire, they will play complex social games, they will make exaggerated or false statements to impress people, and they will always get the upper hand, but they know how to do it and come off smelling like a rose. There are people who have the social mastery to convince everyone around them that they are loving and charitable, but whose motivations are selfish.

So, if you take the approach to push back against the people at this more aggressive, manipulative end of the spectrum, but include the gentler, more authentic folks at the other, you can do damage. It can be a false and unkind position. This is going to be way too much information, but years ago there was an ENTP on the forums here who was *really* angry at his infj ex-girlfriend, so he made quite an impact attacking infjs in general. He was eventually banned for crossing lines, but at the time a lot of people hopped on his bandwagon of rage. His approach to manipulation and word twisting was very similar to an abusive partner I was living with at the time, and I was identifying as an INFJ at the time, along with other of the more authentic, non-aggressive members of the forum. He was reiterating some significant psychological damage I was experiencing at home and so became the single worst online experience I have ever encountered. That period of Fe-criticism was damaging to me, and is still a trigger when it is directed at some of the people who are still my friends from that time whom I think are not deserving of that twisted, manipulative categorical rage. I have a couple of friends here whom I feel more protective of than they know, and so when people passive-aggressively attack them, it is all I can do to not "overstate" my response, so I choose to avoid certain people when they are doing that, and make general passive-aggressive statements not directed at any one individual, but describes the way that ENTP and others cause damage.

So, I don't want to dismiss the need for people to provide reality checks for the aggressive, manipulate, forceful, and fake manifestations of Fe as a judging function, but I also am not on board with including a subset of the Fe category which includes people who are none of those things and who could be damaged by incessantly forcing that negative stereotype onto them. It is necessary to realize that if a negative trait correlates with Fe, it does not follow that it is a trait that every person who identifies with Fe is secretly using it. If "fake" is a trait to correlate with Fe, it does not follow that every Fe-user has the capacity to be a "fake". It's more complex than that. I still have a hard time trusting the people that hopped on the bandwagon of that rageful manipulator who created an abstract reiteration of the worst years of my life. It still feels like they'd hop on that bandwagon of my concrete experience of abuse as well and think nothing of exacerbating the worst emotional pain (edit I don't think that, but it feels that way). Of course I can be accused of being too sensitive, and perhaps I am, but I offer this description as something that can represent someone's experience. It has happened to others and they just haven't posted about it here or in another thread.

The problem with attacking Fe is that the more hardened, aggressive versions of it are the least likely to hear it, and the more gentle, authentic, accommodating versions of it will likely internalize all of the shit. I'm definitely not suggesting people don't talk about it, because people should talk about it. Even professional counselors say that conflicts resolve better when people just keep talking, even when they say the wrong things, because eventually the truth ends up in the mix and can be found.

What I am wondering is if you hold awareness that you are conflating thinking patterns with emotional patterns here?

 

[Yama]

When it comes to mbti, the grass is always greener on the other side. Your type has the most difficult time adjusting with society, and it's easier for everyone else. The whole of society does not inherently favor one type. You may feel like your type is the most hated because you are so self absorbed, and interpreting bad things that happen to your on others views on your type. Well some problems are type related, but people assume more problems are type related than they really are.

This.

 

[Agent Washington]

But it took me years to recognize that kind of behavior as abusive the first time I dealt with it. Even catching glimpses of it now causes a really bad effect in me.

Going through similar things. That's the sort of thing that will set me off in a rage so badly that I have to disengage.

 

[Yama]

I'm tired of people whining that Fe is fake and inauthentic for not being Fi or some shit

 

[virtualinsanity]

I'm tired of people whining that Fe is fake and inauthentic for not being Fi or some shit

I know this is 2 months old but I sort of feel like this. I don't feel "tired" of it but I use Fe in healthy ways, I believe and I don't believe I am being "fake." An Fe user's objective goal is different from your subjective goal or conviction. While I think feeling a conviction to be "true to your ethics" is a cool trait to have, I also believe that feeling a conviction to be true to others and denying your own subjective ethics, is also selfless and a trait to admire.

One is honest to the core and the other cares not to hurt others' feelings or to cultivate good ones.

Each one can become unhealthy and I feel as though some of the posts here are describing Fe in the unhealthy states. I don't really use my Fe to manipulate others. I'd like to think I use it in a more accommodating and naturally honest way.

In the situation, my truth is not the important thing but the objective is. So you have 2 different goals, here when speaking of Fi/Fe. We won't go about things the same but I can still see all points of view. It's not like, either way is irrational. Both are understandable.

I don't really think guys who wear beards and lipstick together look that great, if I'm being completely honest but if he likes it and asks me how he looks, I will tell him, "beautiful" because my subjective opinion becomes irrelevant. What would be the point in giving my subjective opinion based on my subjective "truth" when he already made up his mind that he likes it? I skip the subjective opinion about it and adopt his views for second and say he looks "fine." This way, I don't hurt his feelings, keep the good "vibes" going and all is well.

The only time I struggle with this is when a logical fact has presented itself. If that happens, I usually try to introduce it to people, with tact.. at least before I lose my temper. For instance: I don't believe good and bad or right and wrong exists. I think those are too subjective and therefore, they are illusive. I think a lot of Feeler types would get upset at me if I told them this if they felt strongly about something but because of raw logic, I can't deny the fact or apologize for the facts.

It's kind of like how people say not getting up and walking to the store because they don't "feel" like it is inferior Te when I "know" it's inferior Se. (Since the function is based on action.) A lot of biased folks who have probably mistyped themselves would get angry and I'd create a horrible atmosphere around me.. but yet.. I hold on to the fact a little while before I just move on. However, I can't take the fact back because it can be proven via basic logic.

Back to the original point, though: I use Fe according to what is outside of me because that's what matters. I tend to notice group think in society and things like that.. and it sort of irks me because of the lack of individuality when I know it is there. It's not the harmony but the superficiality and the denying of one's own identity.

I'm a Type 4 and I want to see individuality in a collective society so I do understand the annoyance with "Group Think" but I think if we focus on the goal more than the process of not being subjectively truthful but collectively harmonious, your mind can see it, differently.

An Fi user's aim is to be honest.
An Fe user's aim is to be harmonious.

Different aims create different ethical views.

 

[Ragù]

Dear Fe user...

why do always make me feel guilty when your expectations are not met?
Why all the thoughts i put into something are of no value for you, cause you can't see them?
Why am i always selfish, just because you can't understand my point of view?
Why do i have to be emotionally responsible for other people?
Why should i pay for other people's decisions in the past, why can't i just think about doing what i really want and find the best solution for any problem that will arise?
Why am i always considered the black sheep?
The antisocial. The weird one. The selfish one.
Why do you say that you know my thoughts and motivations better than me, when my reasons are different than yours?
Why do you take advantage of me when i'm not able to express myself and explain myself and show myself, and corner me, and then say that i attacked you when i tried for the last time to be heard?
Why am i the bad guy?
Why is everything i do wrong?
Why can't you just accept me how i am?

The world can be a cruel place when you're an Fi user

 

[Yama]

Dear Fe user...

why do always make me feel guilty when your expectations are not met?
Why all the thoughts i put into something are of no value for you, cause you can't see them?
Why am i always selfish, just because you can't understand my point of view?
Why do i have to be emotionally responsible for other people?
Why should i pay for other people's decisions in the past, why can't i just think about doing what i really want and find the best solution for any problem that will arise?
Why am i always considered the black sheep?
The antisocial. The weird one. The selfish one.
Why do you say that you know my thoughts and motivations better than me, when my reasons are different than yours?
Why do you take advantage of me when i'm not able to express myself and explain myself and show myself, and corner me, and then say that i attacked you when i tried for the last time to be heard?
Why am i the bad guy?
Why is everything i do wrong?
Why can't you just accept me how i am?

The world can be a cruel place when you're an Fi user

you say this like Fe users don't experience any of the same things and that Fi users have never done these things

 

[MyCupOfTea]

I've developed some kind of envy for Fe. It's just... like in social settings, I recognize how I should bond with people, be more open, support other's presence etc. Be genuinely interested about other people. Or this is how I see Fe at it's best. Maybe I'm wrong.

I've been told to give unapproachable first impression. I know I'm difficult to get to know and have only few people I can call my friends. So why do I give a shit? I'm Fi dom, right? Or does giving a shit but not being able to do anything about it mean that I have Fe somewhere in my stack anyway?

Or could it be that Fe (dom/aux) doesn't mean sociability ja Fi (dom/aux) ignorance of it?

 

[blob]

Dear fe user
I love you

 

[AdmiralAndGirlsDesu]

The man I see as my adoptive father is an INFJ, I'm INFP. I can definitely see the differences between Fi and Fe.

Me, as an Fi, care more about sticking to my own feelings and values regardless of the situation. He's more willing to compromise and 'work' with the world. He tries to be polite at almost all times, while for me, if I don't like someone, anyone who's perceptive can probably figure it out in an hour or so. He's more outwardly expressive than me, while I'm more reserved and won't share as easily until I'm talked to on a personal and private level. Both him and I are very disillusioned with the modern world, but he's more of a 'stand my ground and fight' kind of person, while I'm an escapist. We both talk a lot about how messed up things are, but when it comes to actually wanting to do something and fight back, I realize that he's the one that's truly into it, while I just want to get away from it all. He's the kind that doesn't wish ill even for people that he dislikes, while I couldn't give less of a damn whether they sink or swim. If I hate them, I hate them. And it's extremely difficult, if not impossible for me to view someone in a positive light again once I'm determined to view them negatively. He's more into stuff like literature, poetry, and intellectual studies, I am intellectual in my own way but not a truly 'hardcore' intellectual. I like to believe that I'm a 'Thinker', but most of the time when I say 'I think', a lot more of it is really 'I guess this is what I feel.'

 

[LucieCat]

Dear Fe users,
Thank you for what you bring into the world. And thank you to the Fe users close to me who always have my back.
-An ENFP

 

[Agent Washington]

Dear Someone,

...The law doesn't necessarily work on multiperspectivity. Thank god for that.

 

[gracia]

I am an Fe dominant (ENFJ) and I agree with Randomnity! I definitely don't conform to status quo. In fact, many of my friends have remarked that my ENFP friend was more prone to her opinions being swayed by the group's opinions. (VERY easily)
Because I am able to interpret how and why each individual has his/ her opinion in the group, whether "popular" or "unpopular", I can form my own judgement based on personal principles that is able to bring everyone's opinions together. I think Fe is about knowing how to say something, what to say and when to say it for the harmony of the group (WHICH includes the Fe user himself). I know how to bring across a harsh message in the best way possible, so that everyone is able to understand it.
Hmm I don't think arrogance comes from Fe at all. I have caught myself using manipulation, especially around IXFX types. It's never done out of spite though, just accidental ingenious persuasion, or simply a nudge in another direction. If you don't like what an Fe user is telling you, tell them, they're usually more than happy to give way as long as you have explained your reasoning

 

[Tilt]

I am an Fe dominant (ENFJ) and I agree with Randomnity! I definitely don't conform to status quo. In fact, many of my friends have remarked that my ENFP friend was more prone to her opinions being swayed by the group's opinions. (VERY easily)
Because I am able to interpret how and why each individual has his/ her opinion in the group, whether "popular" or "unpopular", I can form my own judgement based on personal principles that is able to bring everyone's opinions together. I think Fe is about knowing how to say something, what to say and when to say it for the harmony of the group (WHICH includes the Fe user himself). I know how to bring across a harsh message in the best way possible, so that everyone is able to understand it.
Hmm I don't think arrogance comes from Fe at all. I have caught myself using manipulation, especially around IXFX types. It's never done out of spite though, just accidental ingenious persuasion, or simply a nudge in another direction. If you don't like what an Fe user is telling you, tell them, they're usually more than happy to give way as long as you have explained your reasoning

I agree with most of what you said, but there can be an underlying arrogance of "assuming too much about others" without checking in with people/external sources. Some Fe users can be very guilty of this because they forget to communicate and seek feedback so then the assumptions become off-base.

 

[Sil]

I believe my cousin may be a high Fe user. He doesn't use Fi-oriented language such as like/love/hate/dislike, and is always careful to keep his feelings on any topic neutral enough that it doesn't disturb the social atmosphere. It's not that he doesn't have his own feelings on subjects, just that he doesn't view them as worth asserting at the cost of making others emotionally uncomfortable. Even if he wants to make a point, he'll do it with charm and in an agreeable fashion.

As a Fi user, it comes off incredibly non-committal and people pleasing, but I've learned to adapt to it the way he accommodates my strong Fi approach to things.

 

[magpie]

Dear Fe users,

Hi.

 

[Yama]

I believe my cousin may be a high Fe user. He doesn't use Fi-oriented language such as like/love/hate/dislike, and is always careful to keep his feelings on any topic neutral enough that it doesn't disturb the social atmosphere. It's not that he doesn't have his own feelings on subjects, just that he doesn't view them as worth asserting at the cost of making others emotionally uncomfortable. Even if he wants to make a point, he'll do it with charm and in an agreeable fashion.

As a Fi user, it comes off incredibly non-committal and people pleasing, but I've learned to adapt to it the way he accommodates my strong Fi approach to things.

I don't think I'd say that that sort of language is Fi-oriented; Je in general tends to freely assert its value judgments, especially if dominant. Fi sees no need to share said value judgments unless directly asked because it doesn't feel that sort of sense of obligation to share its value judgments with anyone else.

 

[Nomendei]

Hiii
Just wanted to break the 777

 

[Coriolis]

I agree with most of what you said, but there can be an underlying arrogance of "assuming too much about others" without checking in with people/external sources. Some Fe users can be very guilty of this because they forget to communicate and seek feedback so then the assumptions become off-base.

I agree. I am sometimes on the receiving end of this. When people assume they know why I have my opinion, or even what my opinion is, they are usually wrong. I can see through the sugar coating on a harsh message right away, and usually lose respect for the messenger. Better to ask than to assume.