Star Wars 9

[The Cat]

Probably the biggest misstep this trilogy made was not bringing him back earlier (he's all over the marketing, so I suppose I don't need to keep using spoiler tags for that), followed by not having Luke reunite with Han. See, that's another reason why I like TLJ better... they actually showed Leia and Luke reuniting.

it really did blow that the relationship between luke and han got the shaft

 

[The Cat]

I actually agree with this stuff.

But for me, it was like sprinkling lots of enjoyable dark flakes of chocolate on a shit sundae.

As you note, there were lots of little nostalgic things Abrams seemed to want to squeeze into this film. I just think all that was missing the point. If he had gotten the big stuff right and forgotten this, I wouldn't have even noticed they were missing.



I don't know, man.

I mean, I like him too (as a character) -- but even when he was pretending to be good, I always found him kind of offhand slimy, like the salesman at an expensive auto dealership who is talking up all his cars but you KNOW he only wants your money.

He was a patron of the arts and extremely cunning. I'd have probably been more like a Darth Maul apprentice than an Annakin but Idk, I was anakins age and a romantic, to be honest I get the kid. I dont think he'd have had the problems if Qui Gon had trained him.

 

[Totenkindly]

He was a patron of the arts and extremely cunning. I'd have probably been more like a Darth Maul apprentice than an Annakin but Idk, I was anakins age and a romantic, to be honest I get the kid. I dont think he'd have had the problems if Qui Gon had trained him.

Frankly, the Jedi are mainly to blame for the hot mess Anakin became. They treated him like shit while preaching to him about how he was gonna save everyone.

Palpatine pretended to appreciate him and give him simple respect as a human being. Anyone would fall for that. It was the only love he got.

 

[The Cat]

Frankly, the Jedi are mainly to blame for the hot mess Anakin became. They treated him like shit while preaching to him about how he was gonna save everyone.

I totally agree. Tough love from emotionally stunted philosophers taken too far when all the kid really wanted was a family. Palpatine gave him a father figure. the first three letters of palpatine spell pal after all (this was an actual bumper sticker on naboo when he was still doing local politics...

Anakins story felt kinda like a reverse Gorion and Candlekeep upbringing usually characters raised by monks turn out as heroes (Baldurs Gate references.)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What is with Chris Terrio and the idea that the mere existence of a mother is enough to get someone to abandon strongly-held if destructive elements of personal philosophies? I totally get that moms can be awesome, but I don't see how that is sufficient to explain major changes in allegiances.

You know, now that I think about, I wonder what Driver would be like as Batman?

Here's something that is cool about that sequence.... it parallels the Mustafar battle on Revenge of the Sith. The symmetry of the turn to light being surrounded by life-giving, cooling water against the turn to the dark with destructive, consuming flames is pretty neat. It's too bad the heart of the scene makes no sense and makes it obvious that they had no idea what to do because Carrie Fisher died.

I also love the visual of the Death Star as a gigantic piece of marine wreckage; it had this amazing, haunted ambiance to it.

I think the best way to some up the individual pieces of the trilogy (on their own) is hat The Force Awakens is a movie I like and dislike, The Last Jedi is a movie I love, and the Rise of Skywalker is a movie I love and hate. It's comparable to The Force Awakens for me, except the awesome parts are more awesome, and the lame parts are more lame. The peaks and troughs have more distance between them.

In this sense, the sequence of the Death Star wreckage is emblematic of the movie as a whole. I love and hate the scene at the same time.

 

[Totenkindly]

What is with Chris Terrio and the idea that the mere existence of a mother is enough to get someone to abandon strongly-held if destructive elements of personal philosophies? I totally get that moms can be awesome, but I don't see how that is sufficient to explain major changes in allegiances.

You know, now that I think about, I wonder what Driver would be like as Batman?

Here's something that is cool about that sequence.... it parallels the Mustafar battle on Revenge of the Sith. The symmetry of the turn to light being surrounded by life-giving, cooling water against the turn to the dark with destructive, consuming flames is pretty neat. It's too bad the heart of the scene makes no sense and makes it obvious that they had no idea what to do because Carrie Fisher died.

I also love the visual of the Death Star as a gigantic piece of marine wreckage; it had this amazing, haunted ambiance to it.

I think the best way to some up the individual pieces of the trilogy (on their own) is hat The Force Awakens is a movie I like and dislike, The Last Jedi is a movie I love, and the Rise of Skywalker is a movie I love and hate. It's comparable to The Force Awakens for me, except the awesome parts are more awesome, and the lame parts are more lame. The peaks and troughs have more distance between them.

In this sense, the sequence of the Death Star wreckage is emblematic of the movie as a whole. I love and hate the scene at the same time.

I agree basically about the Death Star scene, it might be my favorite scene of the film -- but it is ruined because the emotional core of it is false. Which really sucks.

Even Harrison Ford's appearance is really really great. BUT the redemption of Ben Solo is so false. He was very consciously on his own road at the end of The Last Jedi. The first half of TRoS also doesn't really hint at any cracks in his beliefs about himself. He seems perfectly happy where he is. But oh hey, now his mom dies in his head and suddenly he repents? I don't get it. It's like "Ben has to find forgiveness" is on the agenda so it's just tossed in without earning it. I get also that tossing his lightsaber in the water is symbolic, but it's just a lightsaber. Who cares what it looks like or what color it is?He obviously doesn't mind using lightsabers, he uses one later -- but now it's the nice pretty one. This is all so shallowly trope-heavy. Like you, I was happy Rey had a yellow saber at end... I am just not sure why it matters or why she needed one at that point, if she's doing the hermit thing and First/Final Order is gone.

To mirror your language, for me, The Force Awakens is a movie I simply like and just wish it hadn't been as derivative, The Last Jedi was a movie I was frustrated with but grew to strongly appreciate once I had rewatched it a number of times.... and The Rise of Skywalker is a film with some performances and a scene or two I really love but pretty much the film is incoherent at worst and irrelevant at best.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I agree basically about the Death Star scene, it might be my favorite scene of the film -- but it is ruined because the emotional core of it is false. Which really sucks.

Even Harrison Ford's appearance is really really great. BUT the redemption of Ben Solo is so false. He was very consciously on his own road at the end of The Last Jedi. The first half of TRoS also doesn't really hint at any cracks in his beliefs about himself. He seems perfectly happy where he is. But oh hey, now his mom dies in his head and suddenly he repents? I don't get it. It's like "Ben has to find forgiveness" is on the agenda so it's just tossed in without earning it. I get also that tossing his lightsaber in the water is symbolic, but it's just a lightsaber. Who cares what it looks like or what color it is?He obviously doesn't mind using lightsabers, he uses one later -- but now it's the nice pretty one. This is all so shallowly trope-heavy. Like you, I was happy Rey had a yellow saber at end... I am just not sure why it matters or why she needed one at that point, if she's doing the hermit thing and First/Final Order is gone.

To mirror your language, for me, The Force Awakens is a movie I simply like and just wish it hadn't been as derivative, The Last Jedi was a movie I was frustrated with but grew to strongly appreciate once I had rewatched it a number of times.... and The Rise of Skywalker is a film with some performances and a scene or two I really love but pretty much the film is incoherent at worst and irrelevant at best.

I'm not sure it would work as it is even if it weren't for the fact that we've seen people try to redeem Ben twice and fail, but because that is the case it's a very tricky scene to pull off and what they did didn't work. I like my Anakin Skywalker idea; basically he'd appear and he'd tell Ben he was wrong, but he still has the chance to "finish what I started". That means Anakin's Skywalker's sacrifice still has meaning. Because of his Vader obsession, this is something that might actually make sense as a catalyst for redemption. You'd have to explain why he didn't appear before and tell Ben "Yo, that voice you heard? Totes not me bro. ", though.

People say Hayden was good in other things, so if that's true, I think it's possible something like this could have been pulled off. Anakin's force ghost not having anything to say about any of this is kind of a loose end, anyway.

Luke wouldn't work because as Kylo Ren, he hates and fears Luke, but Anakin is a different story.

Edit:

(Oh, and I remember a bit more about the different leak I read. There was something about Kylo Ren being possessed by Palpatine's ghost after he stopped possessing one of the Knights of Ren. Then he gets an exorcism, becomes redeemed, dies, and then Luke's ghost bring hims back to life. At least what we got is better than bullshit. Some people think this might have represented an earlier version/draft of the movie, in which case I'm glad that they changed it (would have deprived us of a lot of Ian, too!), but they definitely needed to make a more few more passes on this thing. )

 

[Totenkindly]

The Anakin angle would be okay if we were still in the first film. Unfortunately, Johnson pretty much moved Ben past that in the second film. He is not beholden to any of the people (dead or alive) he wanted to please earlier in the trilogy as soon as that throne room scene happened. he is his own man.

So that whole room of collectible items on the star destroyer should not exist, at least not as nostalgic mementos. It should all be in the garbage unless it has practical value. Abrams retconned that, the mf'er. I don't think your suggestion would really do much if Ben truly is existentially free as Johnson made him in TLJ.

I'm just annoyed with the both of them for not communication and reaching agreements. They placed their individual desires above the coherence of the trilogy. Johnson threw in curve balls without real regard for how they would impact the third movie and the narrative direction, some pretty brutal ones; but once that was done you also try to service the WHOLE, not the part. Having his own ideas about the kind of movie he wanted to make, Abrams simply ignored, tossed, or undermined the narrative impetus and coherence to make a film unrelated to the prior pieces. For me, that's a huge failing.... I feel like the creative team is in service to the narrative, not the other way around, so you go where the narrative is going and you only get your creative input in HOW you tell the unfolding narrative + any decisions that narrative has not yet made.... but you gotta find ways to incorporate what has gone before, or you disrupt the whole. This whole thing just felt like fanfic to satisfy Abrams.

Maybe that is just me. I view leadership as an act of service, not "being in charge" per se, for example. I go where things take me rather than forcing myself on them, and see how I can support the effort.

 

[Totenkindly]

J.J. Abrams Responds To ‘The Rise Of Skywalker’ Critics: “They’re Right” – Deadline

False equivalence to some degree. This isn't necessarily an "A or B" thing. Essentially, the folks who are happy with this version could have likely also been just as happy with something that appealed to other segments of fans who did not appreciate this film. It's not like the first film was reviled, even if some people had issues with it -- it was much more widely accepted by everyone.

So sick of the laziness of false equivalence, honestly. "You can't please everyone" is true and something to remember, but it's not an excuse for making subpar efforts that could have appealed to many more.

 

[The Cat]

J.J. Abrams Responds To ‘The Rise Of Skywalker’ Critics: “They’re Right” – Deadline

False equivalence to some degree. This isn't necessarily an "A or B" thing. Essentially, the folks who are happy with this version could have likely also been just as happy with something that appealed to other segments of fans who did not appreciate this film. It's not like the first film was reviled, even if some people had issues with it -- it was much more widely accepted by everyone.

So sick of the laziness of false equivalence, honestly. "You can't please everyone" is true and something to remember, but it's not an excuse for making subpar efforts that could have appealed to many more.

The whole thing feels like one of those old writing games where someone writes one scene and then someone else writes the next scene and then the original writer comes and writes the next scene competely retconning the past scene. Which, I mean I get, but that's why I dont play those games. I damn sure wouldnt do it on this scale...

 

[Totenkindly]

The whole thing feels like one of those old writing games where someone writes one scene and then someone else writes the next scene and then the original writer comes and writes the next scene competely retconning the past scene. Which, I mean I get, but that's why I dont play those games. I damn sure wouldnt do it on this scale...

yeah, we used to do that for kicks at college. Of course, we did a lot of the crazy stuff on purpose, because the whole point was to troll the past and next writers, to see what they could do with it. This was supposed to be a coherent film, lol.

 

[The Cat]

yeah, we used to do that for kicks at college. Of course, we did a lot of the crazy stuff on purpose, because the whole point was to troll the past and next writers, to see what they could do with it. This was supposed to be a coherent film, lol.

yeah, I didnt enjoy that game. I once choked out a kid for doing that shit in middle school. I was a handful in my own way.

 

[Totenkindly]

yeah, I didnt enjoy that game. I once choked out a kid for doing that shit in middle school. I was a handful in my own way.

We would try to at least do it artfully. Like, if one guy was exploring the masculinity of his main character, I'd come along and have him realize he was a girl and make her a beautician. And so om. And then someone would change her back. We did actually have enough skill to do the retcon sensibly, it was more just fighting for control of the narrative.

We were also fighting over one character dying and being brought back to life by the next writer, and it got worse and worse (since it became a joke), so then it was like, "and SO AND SO REALIZED HOW [THE DEAD CHARACTER] WAS EXTREMELY AND IRREVOCABLY DEAD, WITH NO PART OF THEIR CORPSE LEFT TO RESURRECT OR BE MISTAKEN ABOUT THE ACTUALITY OF THEIR DEMISE, IN THIS DIMENSION OR ANY DIMEnSION THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVEN GOD AGREED WITH THIS DECISION WHETHER OR NOT S/HE EXISTS..." etc...

it actually was pretty fun.

 

[The Cat]

We would try to at least do it artfully. Like, if one guy was exploring the masculinity of his main character, I'd come along and have him realize he was a girl and make her a beautician. And so om. And then someone would change her back. We did actually have enough skill to do the retcon sensibly, it was more just fighting for control of the narrative.

We were also fighting over one character dying and being brought back to life by the next writer, and it got worse and worse (since it became a joke), so then it was like, "and SO AND SO REALIZED HOW [THE DEAD CHARACTER] WAS EXTREMELY AND IRREVOCABLY DEAD, WITH NO PART OF THEIR CORPSE LEFT TO RESURRECT OR BE MISTAKEN ABOUT THE ACTUALITY OF THEIR DEMISE, IN THIS DIMENSION OR ANY DIMEnSION THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVEN GOD AGREED WITH THIS DECISION WHETHER OR NOT S/HE EXISTS..." etc...

it actually was pretty fun.

lol. I'd rather just have the fist fight and get it over with. I used to tell teachers I wasnt going to participate. They only ever insisted once. I took my "writing for fun" very seriously.

 

[Vendrah]

I watched just about now.. My quick analysis on spoiler..

I was hyped at first, redo my hype reading you on saturday, and now that I came back Im gonna say... I liked it.
I loved the effects, the scenes, the new planets, the sith planet looking, the design of the scenery did look very good and way better than the previous 2 movies, soundtrack was good, acting wasnt that bad as some said, it give emotional feelings. I liked Ray "spirit", the encouraging of the rebellion combating the greater evil. This movie was good but they had everything to make this trilogy as epic as the other movies were, or even more with the tech, the attention, the budget/resources; They made a good job but giving what they had in hands, they could had done much more.

The big fail here was the script/text. While I immerse myself and was quite tolerant, since I never really stop to analyse consistency on these movies (if I were to, perhaps I would watch half the movies I did), but in this case the logic was screaming for help. Rey was one of the most OP characters in the universe, at the start of the movie I couldnt help but think "OMG they must nerf her right now". It doesnt matter the bloodline, Luke had a great bloodline either, but it was shown immense powers that even Yoda and great masters Jedis couldnt achieve or understand after decades of training and whole librarys of knowledge, while she get these powers like pure magic. I watched the movie expected Anakin to appear, I was like "Annakin!Annakin!", and in the middle I realized - no Anakin, no Obi-Wan (Obi-Wan is the role-model Jedi, he deserved more attention than he has), they just bring Palpatine back and Luke that shouldnt died that way. I expected Palpatine to have a justifided and epic entrance, like he suddenly appearing in the shadow with full of lightning out of nowhere, with a long evil laugh, with suddenly a big troop appearing behind him, and perhaps some Lava and some stunning Sith monument behind him, but instead Kylo Ren just get off an elevator meeting him like he was paying some old uncle a visit. They revive Palpatine, so I thought - at least Kenobi, ANakin or perhaps Yoda? To balance things, you know? But no.

I didnt came out frustrated, I liked, I saw the effort and they were full of budget, the effect scenes where good, I loved the scenario, some were beautiful, but this script should be way better. I think [MENTION=30038]The Cat[/MENTION] would write better, tbh even I that I am not a professional writer would had created a better script than them. But I think the CGI and the actors did a good job, but the authors/writers..

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, the big issue is with the writing/plotting.

-----------------

Saw this article today. The headline is too sensationalized (I guess the daily Beast is known for that), but the content does summarize the story and continuity problems:
‘Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker’ Erases the Power of Rey’s Story and Surrenders to Sexist Trolls

I like this bit:

The Last Jedi pulls something similar with Rey’s story, denying her the luxury of a predetermined destiny. “Rey is our protagonist. And the truth is, in the story, the toughest possible thing for her to hear is, you know, you’re not gonna get the easy answer that you’re so-and-so’s daughter, this is your place,” Johnson told me after The Last Jedi’s release. “You’re gonna have to stand on your own two feet and define yourself in this world. And you always want to throw the hardest thing at your protagonist.”

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

yeah, I didnt enjoy that game. I once choked out a kid for doing that shit in middle school. I was a handful in my own way.

Let him go Chewie

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't 100% agree with him (although I do agree with his preference of preferring new, fresh, and unexpected to fan service and easily predicted "twists"), but I definitely enjoy his. I like the way HelloGreedo avoids falling into the trap of "wow everything Star Wars is totally awesome" or "wow that was the worst cinematic abortion I've seen in my life and that's an objective fact." The fandom could do with more of that, and that's been the case since 1999 (damn, I've been plugged into internet opinion on Star Wars for that long?).

I suppose my reaction of "loving and hating it" can be boiled down into an "ok" as well. I differ from him in that there's more I liked than just the Kylo and Rey stuff, and one moment he thought worked did not work for me at all. Also, I think I am way more into details, but more in a sense of liking to explore the universe rather than a nitpicky way. But all of that is ok. We have different opinions and reasons for feeling the way I do.

Perhaps the reason why I felt ambivalent in the Han and Leia stuff in TFA is because I've never been a parent (although, in TLJ, I did enjoy Leia's relationship with Poe as sort of a surrogate son). Perhaps the reason why I responded strongly to Luke in TLJ is because I have been a disappointed idealist.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I wonder what Plinkett will say. His reviews of TFA and TLJ weren’t as brutal as his prequel reviews. He at least admitted there were redeeming qualities.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I wasn’t even aware of the existence of widespread hate for Phantom Menace till I saw the internet communities’ reactions.