Star Wars 9

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Sorry, think J.J and toxic fan culture both bear the blame for this one, although not equally.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

A lot of fans wanted Khan in the sequel, though. I have no idea why. That was always an idea I had zero interest in.

Really? I used to frequent a lot of boards like Trek BBS and it seemed to be the opposite, almost an overwhelming number of fans who hated the idea of rehashing Wrath of Khan. Literally no one wanted Khan in that movie. If they said they did, they were probably trolling and some suit or JJ heard and took them seriously.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Really? I used to frequent a lot of boards like Trek BBS and it seemed to be the opposite, almost an overwhelming number of fans who hated the idea of rehashing Wrath of Khan. Literally no one wanted Khan in that movie. If they said they did, they were probably trolling and some suit or JJ heard and took them seriously.

i definitely heard that, although it wasn't in the same spaces.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Sorry, think J.J and toxic fan culture both bear the blame for this one, although not equally.

Agreed. It's like 90% JJ.

The idea of some massive toxic fan culture is overstated. At best it's maybe several hundred thousand people being very vocal online. Still a fraction of the overall ticket buying population, and considering at least half those toxic fans will still buy tickets, I don't think Disney or Lucasfilm actually cares too much what they're saying one way or the other. Again though, nice convenient scapegoat when the film is poorly received by critics. Gets Disney and to some extent JJ off the hook. Or in the case of TLJ, made for a easy way to dismiss any valid critiques of the film and write it off as some aging neckbeards "afraid of change"

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Agreed. It's like 90% JJ.

The idea of some massive toxic fan culture is overstated. At best it's maybe several hundred thousand people being very vocal online. Still a fraction of the overall ticket buying population, and considering at least half those toxic fans will still buy tickets, I don't think Disney or Lucasfilm actually cares too much what they're saying one way or the other. Again though, nice convenient scapegoat when the film is poorly received by critics. Gets Disney and to some extent JJ off the hook. Or in the case of TLJ, made for a easy way to dismiss any valid critiques of the film and write it off as some aging neckbeards "afraid of change"

It definitely influenced the direction of the movie. If it didn't why would they bother promoting the film as the opposite of The Last Jedi?

I doubt the line about Jedi weapons in the movie was put in their to appease Disney shareholders.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

i definitely heard that, although it wasn't in the same spaces.

I think you're overstating whatever you heard. The majority of long time fans never wanted rehashes or reboots set in the 23rd century, they wanted Star Trek, which is a franchise about progressing into the future, to actually move forward into the future. That's one reason people are excited about Picard, because it will be the first trek creation that isn't a reboot or prequel to be released since Nemesis.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It definitely influenced the direction of the movie. If it didn't why would they bother promoting the film as the opposite of The Last Jedi?

Honestly, I chalk that up more to JJ having some axe to grind with Rian Johnson. I think it irked him TLJ got more critical praise than TFA. But not wanting to make it appear personal, he uses the excuse that he's "doing it for the fans". Again, it would be a win-win for him. Had ROS been more critically acclaimed and outperformed TLJ, he could say, "this is a movie fans wanted" or in the case of it underperforming as it has, he can say "but this is what the fans wanted"

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It definitely influenced the direction of the movie. If it didn't why would they bother promoting the film as the opposite of The Last Jedi?

I doubt the line about Jedi weapons in the movie was put in their to appease Disney shareholders.

JJ is a shitty story teller and always has been. I think he was feeling salty that Rian made a different type of film than he'd have made. Those sort of lines, if anything, are more emblematic of what JJ assumes fans want. I recall Trek '09 being full of shitty writing about "red matter" or whatever it was, because I think JJ poorly understood trek and assumed the technobabble could be utter nonsense with no basis in science and trekkies would eat it up. But no fans of trek actually asked for what he gave them. I think you overestimate the number of SW fans who actually give two shits about Anakin's lightsaber.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

JJ is a shitty story teller and always has been. I think he was feeling salty that Rian made a different type of film than he'd have made. Those sort of lines, if anything, are more emblematic of what JJ assumes fans want. I recall Trek '09 being full of shitty writing about "red matter" or whatever it was, because I think JJ poorly understood trek and assumed the technobabble could be utter nonsense with no basis in science and trekkies would eat it up. But no fans of trek actually asked for what he gave them. I think you overestimate the number of SW fans who actually give two shits about Anakin's lightsaber.

uhhhh.... people flipped out about what Luke did with it.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, my response is 15 minutes too late, but here is the bit I typed and don't feel like updating right this sec:

Yeah, I remember when the idea that Cumberbatch might be Khan came up months before release, people seemed to hate that idea and having Khan be the villain wasn't really a keen notion. So they specifically lied (?) and said it wasn't him, and then it ended up being him after all. I mean, it was just such a dumb ass idea -- to remake the best Trek film out there. It was a loser proposition from the start, no one wanted that. I remember being furious at the latter half of the film.

I'm not sure how to delineate between types of Star Wars fans. Maybe I don't read reddit enough? The RedLetterMedia guy (who was in the video I posted earlier) melted some thousands of vintage star wars figures in fake protest as a "pathetic man child" which was painfully amusing to watch, and they hacked up ROS pretty well. They're fans, but probably not the fans being referred to. I just see a lot of complaints from "fans" about ROS, so I'm not sure which fanbase is the culprit here. I'm still feeling like some of the blame is also Abrams, because he had an idea in his head how he wanted the trilogy to go to serve his own sense of nostalgia, Johnson didn't follow whatever they discussed previously, and so he just wholesale threw any sense of narrative continuity out the window to create this mess. (But that only explains the forced Palpatine intrusion, not the hackneyed spaghetti plotting.)

I will have to read the latest posts and catch up on that next, you guys are just too fast for me.

 

[Totenkindly]

I doubt the line about Jedi weapons in the movie was put in their to appease Disney shareholders.

Well, something is never "wholesale." it's always a combination of influences.

So all that nostalgic throwback (esp considering we already saw Abrams do a throwback to ANH with TFA) belongs at Abram's feet. He did it in STID too. Anything where he decides to 'redo' old films and throws in familiar items just like a Stranger Things "Oh isn't this great because you remember this, don't you" throwback is his influence.

Meanwhile, Disney did lip service to Johnson (I think Kennedy didn't diss him during all the criticism, but the cracks were showing shortly before ROS released) but now wanted a film harkening back more to old SW and TFA.

Meanwhile, all the messy dialogue and plotting figures a lot like (1) Chris Terrio's hacky scripting, (2) plot elements from fan base drawn out of hat, and (3) ingredients by committee. Everyone had their fingers in the pot, so there was no vision. It's just mad scientists tossing in every ingredient in the kitchen because they personally like it, resulting in BLECH.

After all, can anyone truly believe that

Kylo didn't originally die in that pit where Palpatine threw him? And then Rey was going to live? And then someone said, "Hey, we can kill Rey for more drama!" And then someone said, "We can't have Rey die, so let's have Ben crawl out of the hole and kiss her back to life!" Yeah! "And then Ben can die! because of redemption and someone has to die to add severity!"

That whole end was like a group of little kids cobbling together some crazy doll playtime.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

uhhhh.... people flipped out about what Luke did with it.

What, like a few hundred dudes in youtube comment sections and reddit threads? Trust me, these guys are not influencing the direction of SW nearly as much as you think they are.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Well, something is never "wholesale." it's always a combination of influences.

So all that nostalgic throwback (esp considering we already saw Abrams do a throwback to ANH with TFA) belongs at Abram's feet. He did it in STID too. Anything where he decides to 'redo' old films and throws in familiar items just like a Stranger Things "Oh isn't this great because you remember this, don't you" throwback is his influence.

Meanwhile, Disney did lip service to Johnson (I think Kennedy didn't diss him during all the criticism, but the cracks were showing shortly before ROS released) but now wanted a film harkening back more to old SW and TFA.

Meanwhile, all the messy dialogue and plotting figures a lot like (1) Chris Terrio's hacky scripting, (2) plot elements from fan base drawn out of hat, and (3) ingredients by committee. Everyone had their fingers in the pot, so there was no vision. It's just mad scientists tossing in every ingredient in the kitchen because they personally like it, resulting in BLECH.

After all, can anyone truly believe that

Kylo didn't originally die in that pit where Palpatine threw him? And then Rey was going to live? And then someone said, "Hey, we can kill Rey for more drama!" And then someone said, "We can't have Rey die, so let's have Ben crawl out of the hole and kiss her back to life!" Yeah! "And then Ben can die! because of redemption and someone has to die to add severity!"

That whole end was like a group of little kids cobbling together some crazy doll playtime.

My point exactly. JJ is actually very similar to Lucas in that regard. They both like to include shit they assume fans want to see. Like Lucas finding a way to shoehorn a young Boba Fett into the prequels, because why not?

JJ says he does movies "for the fans" when I highly doubt he spends his days actually reading fan responses to his films. I think it's all what he assumes they want, based on what he, as a fan, might like to see.


If anything, he does shit no fans want to see, like making a concerted effort to make trek more like star wars (this is no secret or fan-baked conspiracy theory, he literally went on record in multiple interviews and behind-the-scenes featurettes talking about wanting to make trek like star wars). TFA was him guessing at what fans wanted after the disappointment of the prequels. He happened to get a lot right there, but I don't think he actually consulted fans, I think he assumed, like he always does when he swoops in to cannibalize old franchises.

I'm not saying he should do what fans want, but it's shitty of him to pretend like he is so in touch with them when he obviously isn't

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

My point exactly. JJ is actually very similar to Lucas in that regard. They both like to include shit they assume fans want to see. Like Lucas finding a way to shoehorn a young Boba Fett into the prequels, because why not?

People really wanted to see Boba Fett though, although probably not as a kid.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

People really wanted to see Boba Fett though, although probably not as a kid.

Which is kind of my point I'm trying to make about JJ and Lucas. They do what they think fans might like to see, yet never bother to actually find out what fans want. I'm not saying they should do what fans want to see, I'd actually rather filmmakers didn't do that, I just dislike how JJ pretends to care what fans want, when he really just does what he as a fan wants to see. JJ is what happens when an overgrown manchild fan is given keys to a franshise. He's a solipsistic fanboy-turned-filmmaker who assumes his wants are other fans' wants.

And what people actually wanted Boba? I'm a fan and I don't remember wanting Boba in the prequels. You keep making these broad generalizations about "the fans". There's a lot more diversity of opinions in these fanbases than you give credit for. Are you not a fan? Certainly you didn't want what every other fan wanted.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Which is kind of my point I'm trying to make about JJ and Lucas. They do what they think fans might like to see, yet never bother to actually find out what fans want. I'm not saying they should do what fans want to see, I'd actually rather filmmakers didn't do that, I just dislike how JJ pretends to care what fans want, when he really just does what he as a fan wants to see. JJ is what happens when an overgrown manchild fan is given keys to a franshise.

And what people actually wanted Boba? I'm a fan and I don't remember wanting Boba in the prequels. You keep making these broad generalizations about "the fans".

People on the Jedi Council forums on this old website called TheForce.net ? It was the top star wars site around the time of the prequels, although it's since faded.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think the blame is like 25% clueless fans having lame ideas, and 75% Terrio/Abrams.

The powers that be actually wanted Rian back for this one, but he turned it down.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

People on the Jedi Council forums on this old website called TheForce.net ? It was the top star wars site around the time of the prequels, although it's since faded.

And what were the membership numbers? Several thousand active members? It was likely a drop in the bucket as far as number of overall SW fans are concerned.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think the blame is like 25% clueless fans having lame ideas, and 75% Terrio/Abrams.

The powers that be actually wanted Rian back for this one, but he turned it down.

I think Abrams is a clueless fan who out-of-touch suits think is the guy to revitalize dead or dying science fiction franchises. It's a wonder he is still working.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

And what were the membership numbers? Several thousand active members? It was likely a drop in the bucket as far as number of overall SW fans are concerned.

Guess what? You claimed "no one" wanted Boba Fett in the prequels. I can assure you that's not true.

The stuff about Anakin's lightsaber isn't something execs forced Abrams forced to put in there. If anything, they'd prefer a new lightsaber because they'd probably sell more toys with an entirely new design.

I find it hard to believe that the specific line concerning the lightsaber wasn't put in there to appease people who were triggered by Luke throwing it off a cliff.