Type Shaming Threads

[Norrsken]

[MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION] [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
That's the keyword we should focus on: Unhealthy. Unhealthy people of any type can behave in ways that should be discouraged, Fi or Fe or otherwise.

 

[Norrsken]

[MENTION=26674]theforsaken[/MENTION]

You know, it just dawned on me how what you described could be taken as manipulative, particulary by an FJ. I mean, does it look like the FP is setting a trap - they set a "tone" for communication style, and then when someone follows suit, they accuse the person of being mean?

I think this projects a Fe awareness we simply can be sorely lacking (and this happens with all types; we project our own awareness and lack of it in others looks deliberate). It generally doesn't occur to me that I have power to set tone. There being an agreed upon tone or style doesnt even occur to me. Instead of a deliberate manipulation, it's a big blindspot, but because it is not a blindspot for others, they may think we are just as aware and are being deliberate, therefore making it manipulative.

In the wise observation of a past poster here, it can be much easier to imagine someone having a function-attitude we dont have than them NOT having OUR preferred function-attitude.

With some Fi users, I feel 'set up' and like they set the tone so that if I react in a way that does not sit well with them and their values (or whatever else that is going on in their heads at the time), that they just explode and I feel manipulated somehow. It angers me when they do that. Obviously, I'm going to stress that this is something that only SOME Fi users do, not all of you. The ones that go up and beyond that certain brand of manipulation are a pleasure to be around with.

 

[Evo]

That is very Fe mentality, IMO. In another thread I note there is validity in it, however.

There are extremes where content is missing in favor of presentation (what we often call emotional arguments and manipulative) or where presentation (or the source itself) is abrasive or weak but the content has sound reasoning and support (and dismissal of it can amount to a fallacy of attacking the character and not the argument). The latter is a problem because it does ask us to remove motive, and that becomes important in actually having a discussion. If their motive is not good, then they may not even be open to further reasoning, making the whole thing a waste of energy.

I think Fe types here are determining if it makes sense to engage at all, regardless if the argument is valid. They may resist validating it at all, thinking that also validates the approach. It basically is just a different focus - it's not the rationality of the argument, but the value of the interaction for them (or that's how it appears to me).

Right, it's basically like someone is saying" I don't support increased border control because then that would mean I support Trump."

When in actuality those two things can be separated. It's fine, whatever. People care about different things, and approach things differently. I get it. I just like to be clear that shaming someone's presentation is just as equal in my eyes to the presenter shaming a function.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Uh yeah. Well people on tumblr really do say that, but the first part of the sentence was sarcasm.

Whatever never mind. Can't tell if it was a jab at me or others. Sorry for saying anything.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

So really, Im right in saying that it's not that you care if someone holds a certain view about a type, or whether it's wrong or right. It's the presentation of how they approach the argument?

Right... well this is exactly why those "evil stereotypes" are propagated btw ...

I'm looking for content, not presentation.

Anyway in reality shaming is detrimental to growth. And every function or type has its own reasons for doing what they do. Shaming is something that comes from the outside of someone. So if you clearly pick up that someone else is shaming a type, then you clearly know that they're unknowingeable about that type, because they're on the outside looking in.

If you know that they're unknowingeable, then why does it bother you? If they don't respond proportionately when you offer knowledge, they are clearly a troll, or unsolvable case.

I don't really see the problem. Other than the same ol' presentation argument masked as "misinformation"

It distorts the concept of the type when incorrect or exaggerated information is emphasized. It makes typology discussion an act of futility resulting in less understanding rather than more. I think the threads are damaging. I recently participated in one that seemed like that's what was going on because I thought maybe in the course of discussion there was some attempt at a little higher level thinking. When I came back the next day I saw five more threads like it or worse in the new posts, so it just felt like the forum is going through a negative phase. Perhaps a little push back against it could be constructive?

I mostly avoid the hate threads. If enough people enjoy it, I will certainly leave them to whatever they wish. I do think it results in very distorted ideas about typology and so goes against the basic premise of this forum and against Jung's intentions for the theory. I don't see a reason to support it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION] [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
That's the keyword we should focus on: Unhealthy. Unhealthy people of any type can behave in ways that should be discouraged, Fi or Fe or otherwise.

I agree.

Although I remember this INTP who used to post here going on this rant about the overuse of the phrase unhealthy, because people sometimes use it dismissively or as a judgment on someone. I thought a great point was the suggestion of calling them "unstable" instead, and recognizing how these moments or phases can be the state someone is in when developing. Jung kind of describes it as a doorway that allows growth. I imagine it as subconcious parts starting to shove their way into our consciousness, which we can resist (often the inferior), and it can look ugly and crude at first. In this way, it is not necessarily unhealthy, but part of a process of positive growth (integration).

I often see these phases or moments as turning points - the instability can open the way for the person to gain insight and grow OR regress.
So I don't have a problem calling it unhealthy, as far as recognizing the behaviors and attitudes as negative and not coming from a mature and balanced frame of mind, but I think the instability can be viewed as a doorway for growth (rather than writing someone off). In other words, the person may need to go through that in order to become balanced and mature.

Some people go a long time with a facade of balance and maturity because they cut out and avoid anything which disturbs their ego. I think this is the average state, and why many overrate their emotional health level. They avoid disturbances to their ego so they aren't aware of how narrow it is.

With some Fi users, I feel 'set up' and like they set the tone so that if I react in a way that does not sit well with them and their values (or whatever else that is going on in their heads at the time), that they just explode and I feel manipulated somehow. It angers me when they do that. Obviously, I'm going to stress that this is something that only SOME Fi users do, not all of you. The ones that go up and beyond that certain brand of manipulation are a pleasure to be around with.

It is messed to do that, but like I said before I don't think it is conscious, or that is not even an unconscious desired outcome.

I can go into how FPs are manipulative, which I was going to do in Mal's thread but realized it would fall on deaf ears (see, I DO learn from the Fe way ). However, I am longwinded and need a short break ATM from typing.

 

[Evo]

It distorts the concept of the type when incorrect or exaggerated information is emphasized. It makes typology discussion an act of futility resulting in less understanding rather than more. I think the threads are damaging. I recently participated in one that seemed like that's what was going on because I thought maybe in the course of discussion there was some attempt at a little higher level thinking. When I came back the next day I saw five more threads like it or worse in the new posts, so it just felt like the forum is going through a negative phase. Perhaps a little push back against it could be constructive?

I mostly avoid the hate threads. If enough people enjoy it, I will certainly leave them to whatever they wish. I do think it results in very distorted ideas about typology and so goes against the basic premise of this forum and against Jung's intentions for the theory. I don't see a reason to support it.

Hey, I'm all for ignoring trolls lol. I usually avoid the long drawn out threads where reactivity is the basis of which they're fueled.

Perhaps it comes down to what each person considers a hate thread. I see more threads about feminism and gender tbh. I mean there's a thread comparing cancer to feminism up right now.... I guess I just laugh at the ridiculousness instead if take it personally.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Hey, I'm all for ignoring trolls lol. I usually avoid the long drawn out threads where reactivity is the basis of which they're fueled.

Perhaps it comes down to what each person considers a hate thread. I see more threads about feminism and gender tbh. I mean there's a thread comparing cancer to feminism up right now.... I guess I just laugh at the ridiculousness instead if take it personally.

Sometimes I don't get upset, but there is a build up of negativity and I take it personally for myself and others.

As far as learning about our own flaws, I don't know about y'all, but I write and sings songs about mine. Perhaps we should start CD swaps instead.

 

[Mal12345]

Someone make one about Ti please.

 

[Dreamer]

Its also hilarious how unhealthy Fi types can actually manipulate situations seemingly even better than some of the twisted Fe types I've come across in my life. Gotta love it when they talk about how brutally honest they are and how important it is to keep it real but then they flip a table when you give them the same medicine.

I think the danger with any type that has such a deep grasp on human psychology and the way emotions work is that when unhealthy or in a vulnerable state, they have the rather easy ability to twist people's emotions and thoughts on a dime, regardless whether someone is Fi or Fe. It sometimes scares me that I feel I have such ability to manipulate people with some degree of ease, but thankfully I've matured far beyond that point. High school though...umm, I was a little demon child at times, manipulating each of my parents to get what I wanted. Actually, I feel any teen has this ability hahaha. You quickly learn what each parent responds to and you use that to your narcissistic teenage ways. Ohhh high school, how I shall never wish to return to those days.

Disclaimer: I just realized I have a tendency to do this, but someone's post often times spawns an idea I have and I can at times go off on some tangent without even properly addressing the person I was quoting! So...Sake, forgive me, but I may only slightly be responding specifically to you. But I give you full credit in getting me to the idea I posted

 

[Yama]

Someone make one about Ti please.

Didn't you already make one? And fail to actually address any real criticisms?

 

[Norrsken]

I think the danger with any type that has such a deep grasp on human psychology and the way emotions work is that when unhealthy or in a vulnerable state, they have the rather easy ability to twist people's emotions and thoughts on a dime, regardless whether someone is Fi or Fe. It sometimes scares me that I feel I have such ability to manipulate people with some degree of ease, but thankfully I've matured far beyond that point. High school though...umm, I was a little demon child at times, manipulating each of my parents to get what I wanted. Actually, I feel any teen has this ability hahaha. You quickly learn what each parent responds to and you use that to your narcissistic teenage ways. Ohhh high school, how I shall never wish to return to those days.

Disclaimer: I just realized I have a tendency to do this, but someone's post often times spawns an idea I have and I can at times go off on some tangent without even properly addressing the person I was quoting! So...Sake, forgive me, but I may only slightly be responding specifically to you. But I give you full credit in getting me to the idea I posted

All teenagers are monsters, tho.

 

[violet_crown]

In all honesty I've appreciated negative feedback from members most of all...when it is accurate. I mean, if you buy into the concept of type...then it follows that you likewise bu y into the existence of type-related strengths and weakness. Seeing as I am always hoping someone or something else will make enlightenment super easy for me...I'm very cool with the people that are willing to risk discussing my type and functions in a negative way. But it damn well better be accurate.

If the information is accurate I want it out there regardless of the messengers motivations. Shame what is legitimately shameful for all I care... I'm looking towards the insight.

I'm not sure what wires get crossed for me though when an individual is inaccurate and belittling on top of that...perhaps it then registers with my system as an underdog situation and I go into reaction mode. But these people usually sink their own ships. Image spinners that use type-talk in an effort to sell their perfected facades are far more creepy to me than someone venting about their ex.

I strongly agree with this point.

Some of the biggest learning experiences I've had here have been times when I've come and vented about a certain type. I had had some pretty bad experiences with an INFJ a little while back, and went on a multi-page tear about it. It led to a situation where I had to actually evaluate some of the bullshit I was spewing in the presence of real life people as opposed to some amalgamation of concepts in my head. By the end, I realized that most of what I had posted wasn't reflective of anything real.

That said, I recognize that what I did was unfair and caused needless distress, even if it did result in a teachable moment. If I had to do it again, I would have done more to frame my opinion within the context of my experience. I think what [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] is pointing to as the problem is maybe the only thing that could make these kinds of rants forgivable. If someone says, "Look, my XKCD ex did such and such a thing. How much of their horrible is type-related, and how much of it is just because they were a dirtbag?" I feel people would be much less likely to take it personally even if they shared a type with the ex.

Knowing someone's intended purpose can make a difference. I don't think it's fair, for instance, to lump [MENTION=26674]theforsaken[/MENTION]'s post on offense and Fe with some of the other threads that have popped up as of late, because I got the impression her goal was actually understanding something about extraverted feeling. It doesn't serve anyone to cut off possibly uncomfortable subjects of conversation simply because they're uncomfortable, especially if those participating in the thread can agree on the value of engaging with the subject matter.

Speaking to the OPs point, being disrespectful to other people, or being destructive just because, is an issue. Maybe a way to address this would be to challenge posters on what they're trying to achieve. "Ok, XKCDs are all evil, soul sucking narwhales. Noted. What else were you trying to get out of this conversation? What sort of discussion were you seeking besides validation of what you already think?" Etc.

Just my $.02.

 

[ceecee]

Someone make one about Ti please.

I'm waiting for the Ni thread.

 

[Norrsken]

I'm waiting for the Ni thread.

Coming up next: "Ni users- How come the future freaks you out?"

 

[Dreamer]

All teenagers are monsters, tho.

This is true. From there, people either remain monsters, or don't. I look straight into the eyes of a teenager and ask them, "are you pure evil?". Then I tickle them without warning. If they respond with laughter, they will live, if not, they are already dead inside and I must move on.

 

[prplchknz]

This is true. From there, people either remain monsters, or don't. I look straight into the eyes of a teenager and ask them, "are you pure evil?". Then I tickle them without warning. If they respond with laughter, they will live, if not, they are already dead inside and I must move on.

i hate being tickled and that would make me resent you i would laugh but that's because i'm ticklish

of course my question actually is what if they're not ticklish and get mad for you invading their personally space instead of laughing? are they still dead inside?

 

[Norrsken]

This is true. From there, people either remain monsters, or don't. I look straight into the eyes of a teenager and ask them, "are you pure evil?". Then I tickle them without warning. If they respond with laughter, they will live, if not, they are already dead inside and I must move on.

Oh, and don't feed them after midnight.
Trust me.

 

[Dreamer]

Oh, and don't feed them after midnight.
Trust me.

And we all know where this leads...

 

[Mal12345]

Didn't you already make one? And fail to actually address any real criticisms?

Right. And since I'm such a horrible failure at being objective with Ti, I'm asking someone else to do this.