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  1. #51
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Looks like you've been solidly answered by Kdude and Southern Kross, Athenian. Can't speak for everyone else but when Fi manifests, right and wrong become crystal clear. Whether it's everyone else's perception of right and wrong is debatable.

    To provide some concrete examples of Fe gone wild, refer to Salem, the attempted genocide of Jews, the treatment of heretics all over Europe, the attempted genocides in Bosnia and Somalia and the Crusades. Also, discrimination as it relates to gender, race or sexual preference.

    There are no bullet-proof checks and balances to either Fe or Fi. We can only rely on an individual's moral compass.

  2. #52
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Only an unhealthy Fi-user does whatever they feel like. My values force me to do things I really don't want to do on a everyday basis. I hold my values above my own personal needs and desires. And it is very important for Fi-users (well doms/auxs anyway) that their actions remain consistent with their values because to fail to do so, is to tear apart their very foundations of self.

    Besides, I find many 'logical' people remain rational about something until it directly effects them and then they throw logic out the window. Being a logical person doesn't mean you are consistent and reasonable.

    You assume logic will always arrive at the right decision; you too are a Feeler, so you believe that there are exceptions to the rules and should understand this is not true. You also assume that logic is always the most useful way to analyse a situation - that every problem has a simple straight-forward answer every sensible person could agree with. Of course this is not the case. There are completely different approaches to logical thinking that will arrive at entirely different conclusions when considering the same problem. How do you know which is 'right'? There is always a degree of subjectivity necessary in even the most rigid, impersonal, analytical thinking. How can you ever trust anyone to make the right decision? Some time or another, people will have to think for themselves.

    This is like asking how do Fe-users know when not to be a mindless sheep and stop following an immoral cause. Like Fe, Fi doesn't exist in a vacuum - it has other functions, including Te, to help it make decisions and test its conclusions. All of the functions have blind spots, thats why they need balance to operate - Fi is no different to any of the rest in this regard.
    excellent points, i totally agree

    After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment.
    that does not, however, mean there is never any adjustment of Fi values. what you'll see happen is that our worldviews will expand to accommodate previous misconceptions. for example, i used to think Fe/Ti users when, they drew away in argument, were trying to block me off. i have generally always thought walling off someone you love is a "bad" thing values-wise - because in my world, blocking someone off is either for the purpose of hurting them or a very final sort of "i cannot handle being around you" decision. there is very little that is altruistic or temporary about it. but when a Fe dom friend explained to me that she draws away for the dual purpose of protecting herself and also not doing anything to me that she would regret in anger, i had to shift my understanding. it still seems strange to me, but i suspend judgment of the behavior until i fully understand the intention. i do still think that hurting people is generally bad, and i will be very surprised if that belief ever really changes. still, while perhaps the value is rooted, it can always expand and contract, and be reshaped to meet reality.

  3. #53
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    The way I see it, the ability to accept or perceive the "logic" of Fi depends on whether or not you believe there exists a universal collection (or a pattern) of principles, ethics or moral standards (or, IOW, some sort of values-based framework). And, whether or not you feel you need to live your life to the pursuit of these.

    Fi principles don't come from nowhere - tracked throughout time and culture, the same themes have persisted for centuries, millennia: do good in the world, don't steal, don't cheat, don't hurt someone else, don't murder, take care of your children, take care of the elderly etc etc etc. Bear in mind this is not looking at personal behaviour or cultural practice, a different entity indeed.

    I think (and this is just me thinking out loud atm) that Fi taps into the feeling of truth when aligning to these principles and weighs the pros and cons of each situation according to these truths. I define and refine these truths continually throughout my life. To what "feels" right. It's a life-long journey. Cue back to this idea of trying to access that universal framework.

    Ti isn't logic, but there is a kind of logic especially appealing to Ti. I think Fi is made the same way, and my initial evidence is that most of us Fi-ers (doms and aux's esp) quickly recognize each other, whether we agree with each other's opinions or not. The Ti brand of logic is more easily expressed than the Fi version, since Ti and Te people can lay claim to supposed objectivity, whereas Fi and Fe do not enjoy the same commonality in dialogue, being essentially too tied up into emotions rather than the truths behind all emotions.

    This is me thinking out loud to try to express this, and is in no way complete. Please add or subtract as you wish.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #54
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ and above, this is where the idea of Fi being personal and only subjective would be transcended to something greater, a larger more comprehensive and universal wisdom that persists throughout time and space. Fi logic. Fi's not small, for in the composition of each individual world it all comes together to form something very big.

    Just a slice from a bigger "truth pie" ... where there's room for multiple purposes and individual truths. And that's why all of us are made a little different, to access our little slice of that big pie.

    I can't quite put my feelings into words atm. Sorry if this comes off as a bit pretentious.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #55
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ and above, this is where the idea of Fi being personal and only subjective would be transcended to something greater, a larger more comprehensive and universal wisdom that persists throughout time and space. Fi logic. Fi's not small, for in the composition of each individual world it all comes together to form something very big.

    Just a slice from a bigger "truth pie" ... where there's room for multiple purposes and individual truths. And that's why all of us are made a little different, to access our little slice of that big pie.

    I can't quite put my feelings into words atm. Sorry if this comes off as a bit pretentious.
    I think there's something to that. Ti works toward universal principles by understanding specific situations/frameworks/etc in depth. Fi likewise is honed by direct experience, but reaches towards universal values.

    Also, Fi is still Feeling, and is still people-centric is many respects. While we can tend to be more selective on who we identify and empathize with, we still find it difficult spend much time in the "screw everyone else, I want what I want" mode. Not that we can't visit that happy abode, or be blind to long term results of our "makes sense in the moment" actions.

  6. #56
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think there's something to that. Ti works toward universal principles by understanding specific situations/frameworks/etc in depth. Fi likewise is honed by direct experience, but reaches towards universal values.

    Also, Fi is still Feeling, and is still people-centric is many respects. While we can tend to be more selective on who we identify and empathize with, we still find it difficult spend much time in the "screw everyone else, I want what I want" mode. Not that we can't visit that happy abode, or be blind to long term results of our "makes sense in the moment" actions.
    After reading Peace Baby's post, a question popped into my mind, but you answered it somewhat here. I was going to ask, "what happens when an Fi user does something that violates those universal, Fi principles? When an Fi user cheats on their partner or doesn't treat someone kindly or otherwise causes pain or hurt?" And the part of your post that provided insight to the answer for me is the bolded part. The multiple times I have seen an Fi user violate these "treat everyone good and fair" principles have always been the result of a "made sense at the moment" situation. It made sense at the moment, but it was a devastating blow to the other person. I think what maybe compounds this problem is that the friend/partner of the Fi user sees them in almost an angelic way. The Fi user truly exudes this aura that they would never hurt a soul and so, over time, the other person buys into that. The Fi user has a way of gaining one's TOTAL and complete trust. And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

    Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"

    T is my weakest function - I do have a bit of Fi, but not enough of it to really be "fluent" in it. It's still something I'm figuring out, so these explanations help.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #57
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

    Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"
    I'm only one INFP, not an INFP spokesbeing, so what I have to say is just my opinion. Still, my experience is that there's a lot of regret and self-recrimination when I hurt someone else. Compared to Ni-doms and auxs, we NFPs can be blind to the long term ramifications of some of our actions. Like INTPs and ISTPs, we can tend to optimize things for the specific in the moment, and lose sight of the long term trajectory, especially when we our younger.

    So, I certainly tend towards having a lot of guilt and deep feelings of remorse when I have hurt others. Sometimes, it's cases where I should have "known better" or I went against conventional wisdom (again, I think we sometimes have to learn things to the hard way). I think most INFPs, for example, hold themselves to high standards morally, and it's difficult for us to accept the cases where we don't live up to our own standards. Clearly those things happen sometimes, and the cause can be our particular type-related blindness.

  8. #58
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    I can understand how it probably isn't an easy thing. Just as a parallel, if I do something extremely illogical, that makes no logical sense (a Ti fail), that ends up with bad results, I'm very, very, VERY hard on myself about it. You guys probably hurt in your heart, however, while we beat ourselves up in our head/mind. Probably more painful to hurt in the heart, I would imagine.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #59
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'm only one INFP, not an INFP spokesbeing, so what I have to say is just my opinion. Still, my experience is that there's a lot of regret and self-recrimination when I hurt someone else. Compared to Ni-doms and auxs, we NFPs can be blind to the long term ramifications of some of our actions. Like INTPs and ISTPs, we can tend to optimize things for the specific in the moment, and lose sight of the long term trajectory, especially when we our younger.

    So, I certainly tend towards having a lot of guilt and deep feelings of remorse when I have hurt others. Sometimes, it's cases where I should have "known better" or I went against conventional wisdom (again, I think we sometimes have to learn things to the hard way). I think most INFPs, for example, hold themselves to high standards morally, and it's difficult for us to accept the cases where we don't live up to our own standards. Clearly those things happen sometimes, and the cause can be our particular type-related blindness.
    I agree with this. I really beat myself up about such things, and sometimes continue to do so well after the other person is over it. It sounds OTT but it does help to adjust your behaviour the next time similar circumstances arise - I certainly don't want to make the same mistake again after all that self-torture.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #60
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I was going to ask, "what happens when an Fi user does something that violates those universal, Fi principles? When an Fi user cheats on their partner or doesn't treat someone kindly or otherwise causes pain or hurt?" And the part of your post that provided insight to the answer for me is the bolded part. The multiple times I have seen an Fi user violate these "treat everyone good and fair" principles have always been the result of a "made sense at the moment" situation. It made sense at the moment, but it was a devastating blow to the other person. I think what maybe compounds this problem is that the friend/partner of the Fi user sees them in almost an angelic way. The Fi user truly exudes this aura that they would never hurt a soul and so, over time, the other person buys into that. The Fi user has a way of gaining one's TOTAL and complete trust. And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

    Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"
    Good questions INTPness .... I think the germ of the answer is here in your reply. Nobody is perfect. We are all simply human. We are learning and growing, trying to figure life and ourselves out. So having high ideals is quite a different matter than trying to always live up to them .... and some are more sacrosanct I would say? And we can get deceived by how minor one seems in the moment?

    For example, taking care of myself is important so I should floss my teeth every day. And I try to. Yet sometimes I forget, and sometimes I decide I just don't feel like it. That appears small in the grand scheme. In the moment, not flossing one day seems almost inconsequential. BUT often, those little things are not so inconsequential as they seemed. Certainly not when I get unwelcome news at the dentist. The decision of the moment can have long-term repercussions that don't seem so big at the time.

    Here's another angle, from a real-life example, and I used it in another thread but it works here too:

    My daughter and I had an interesting discussion last week about swearing .... since I rarely use the F word, she can remember the times very distinctly that I have. This annoys me because although I try to have 100% control, that word does sometimes come out. And not only that, my high level of self-control makes the times I do "slip up" very well remembered. So compounding the issue too is that I think our very attempts to live to a certain standard make it so much more evident when we do not.

    As far as how I feel when I have caused damage? I agree with the sentiments of Seymour and Southern Kross .... when we have somehow inadvertently hurt someone, it is a deep personal wound too. Myself, I will go to great lengths to try to bring healing and peace back to whatever I have somehow broken. And if I don't succeed .... there's a huge personal sadness that can last for years.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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