skylights
i love
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2010
- Messages
- 7,756
- MBTI Type
- INFP
- Enneagram
- 6w7
- Instinctual Variant
- so/sx
^ before getting into MBTI, i totally thought Ne dom was just how everyone thinks. i didn't know anyone thought any differently. i just assumed that was the way brains worked in general.
i agree with you - and i do not condemn hitler as lacking any spark of humanity. for those who doubt, watch him with eva braun, there is a guarded sweetness that lingers.
but what southern kross is saying is that we know internally that there is something not right about what hitler did, regardless of context. that is where Fi's independent double-subjectivity becomes important. everyone could agree, everything could be logically consistent, and there would still be something that strikes people as wrong.
i think the latter is particularly relevant. Fi relies on body of baseline principles - much like Ti principles - like "humans are valuable" and "hurting is bad". things are wrong without dissent when they break these principles. it's really almost logical in nature. since we've already godwin'd, i'll pull this...
if we don't protect each person, each "unit" as important individually, we run the risk of subdividing ad infinitum. thus we have to establish baseline principles affirming the inherent importance of each being. if we try to establish these guidelines as groups, we're already violating the idea, because every human in existence cannot possibly be present to weigh in. we have to form these principles individually.
and we each have to trust ourselves, really. trust that there is some kind of core in us, some similarity, some spark of mental energy that inherently knows what should be done. trust that even without context, without logic, we remain capable of making judgments. Fi is how we know when an attack on one of us threatens the wellbeing of us all. yes, it's illogical, yes, it's self-centered, and yes, completely individual... and somewhere deep in our psyches, we need to have it. because then we are equipped to handle even the most insidious threats of destruction to our individual selves.
Athenian200 said:Evil is something that you DO, not something that you ARE.
i agree with you - and i do not condemn hitler as lacking any spark of humanity. for those who doubt, watch him with eva braun, there is a guarded sweetness that lingers.
but what southern kross is saying is that we know internally that there is something not right about what hitler did, regardless of context. that is where Fi's independent double-subjectivity becomes important. everyone could agree, everything could be logically consistent, and there would still be something that strikes people as wrong.
Athenian200 said:If there is no dissent, how can it be wrong? Or at least, how can anyone be held responsible for it if is, since there's no way of seeing that it's wrong without a way of contrasting it with something else?
I don't know where to begin with this.
Southern Kross said:You can always contrast it with something else, if only with a past experience or a concept of how you would want to be treated.
i think the latter is particularly relevant. Fi relies on body of baseline principles - much like Ti principles - like "humans are valuable" and "hurting is bad". things are wrong without dissent when they break these principles. it's really almost logical in nature. since we've already godwin'd, i'll pull this...
Pastor Martin Niemoller said:First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
if we don't protect each person, each "unit" as important individually, we run the risk of subdividing ad infinitum. thus we have to establish baseline principles affirming the inherent importance of each being. if we try to establish these guidelines as groups, we're already violating the idea, because every human in existence cannot possibly be present to weigh in. we have to form these principles individually.
and we each have to trust ourselves, really. trust that there is some kind of core in us, some similarity, some spark of mental energy that inherently knows what should be done. trust that even without context, without logic, we remain capable of making judgments. Fi is how we know when an attack on one of us threatens the wellbeing of us all. yes, it's illogical, yes, it's self-centered, and yes, completely individual... and somewhere deep in our psyches, we need to have it. because then we are equipped to handle even the most insidious threats of destruction to our individual selves.