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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Te! Of course.

    That... actually makes sense. That was the missing part of the equation. I can actually see Fi working, as long as it's paired with Te to prevent it from becoming unbalanced. Te can make up for anything that Fi lacks, because it can make judgments on a basis that Fi wouldn't consider.

    You would think this would be more obvious to me, considering that I'm a long-time proponent of the idea that all Fe users have Ti.

    I think the Te/Fi combo works out really well in ENFPs, but I have trouble seeing how INFPs would make it work. I mean, they're stuck with inferior Te... it seems like it would be kind of hard for them to compensate for that and become more balanced. Goodness knows I haven't got enough Se to balance with my Ni!
    Yes, oh yes, ye gods INFPs without Te are ...well...they're not exactly the bane of my existence, but I lose patience with them, because they will get so wrapped up in Fi that what they say may have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OUTER WORLD AT ALL...in extreme cases things they say don't even make sense....in less extreme cases, mostly they're just very stubborn about their Fi values with very little objectivity to back it up.

    Good thing, though, that their Fi is more developed than an ENFPs, so they can be extremely ethical...or extremely not. :/

    On the other hand, an INFP lacking Te will never steamroll you like an ENFP hyped up on a half-crazed Fi mission with a hefty Te push.

    Yes, Te is wonderful - when balanced with Fi.

    Yet even Fi-doms without good Te development still serve a purpose, and it's important to acknowledge that they do...they *can* bring peace, tolerance, beauty, and creativity to the world...those things are important.

    And even when their Fi is bad, the cool thing about IxFPs is that they usually won't bother anybody if they lack Te, and won't want to be in any positions of power, so you can relax on that front.

    Any type can go wrong. Every type has it's gifts.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    What did you people do to my thread?
    It's nice to see you, too.

  3. #93
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, okay. Those principles work fine in theory. But what if you find yourself in a situation where one group of people... is causing tons of problems for the majority of people, and the only way to stop them is to kill them? Suppose that they're all, say, crazy suicide bombers/gorillas or something, and they're constantly trying to dominate, frighten, and force us to their way of life. Isn't there such a thing as a situation in which it's necessary to exterminate a group of people, because failing to do so will spell doom and misery for the group of people that you represent?
    Cognitive functions do NOT exist in isolation. All Jungian-based typologies recognize this. Te comes into play. The way Te vs Fi is weighed is different from Fe vs Ti. For Te/Fi, there are practical, logistical constraints to Fi, and personal, values, liberty-oriented constraints upon Te expediencies. Either alone is insanity. Together, it is quite sane and balanced. I don't understand Fe/Ti as well, but there should be a parallel, something like there are practical, subjective, people-related constraints to Ti, and personal, logical constraints upon Fe peer-pressures.

    The "loyalty" is to a practical ideal (Te), not to a social group (Fe). There is no "emotion" vested in procedures/laws/regulations as long as they don't affect personal Fi-values.

    But you CAN'T just believe that each person is important individually... there have to be some people who are more important than others. There have to be leaders, there has to be an authority. There has to be something to hold people together in a group, a common identity, or else you have anarchy. You have to have a loyalty to a particular group over another. You can't just... treat them all equally. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work in reality. Ever.
    @bolded: that's your assumption, and it's a common Fe/Ti assumption. But in Te/Fi land, it isn't a common "identity" so much as a common set of practical interests (Te). Te/Fi is very much a "live and let live (unless it is practically impossible)" approach. Te is how we live together, Fi is our personal space, and "boundaries" are the border between the two.

    What about heinous criminals? We can't just treat them as though they're as valuable as the victims, and thus reward them. The whole concept of enemies and friends is at odds with your way of thinking.
    "Heinous criminals" violate both Fi and Te judgments. They hurt people (violating Fi), and they make normal, practical interactions (Te) untenable.

    This is insanity. I... give up. I cannot understand. I do not feel it! It isn't THERE for me. I'm sorry. I'm sure I violate these principles every day of my life. I think that we are just destined to misunderstand one another forever.
    You don't feel it because you "feel" the "logistics" (Fe), so you're wondering why the value judgments aren't extroverted. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as Ti is working in parallel, and the synthesis of the two yields a sane result. Te/Fi doesn't "feel" the logistics. There is little or no emotion in terms of "justice" as a group ideal, but there is a lot of emotion in terms of "why are people (as individuals) hurting?"

    No, we aren't destined to misunderstand each other. Confusion just indicates something that hasn't been learned yet, not something that cannot be learned.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #94
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    Yes! Common practical interests! A practical ideal!

    Thank you INTJ.

  5. #95
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, oh yes, ye gods INFPs without Te are ...well...they're not exactly the bane of my existence, but I lose patience with them, because they will get so wrapped up in Fi that what they say may have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OUTER WORLD AT ALL...in extreme cases things they say don't even make sense....in less extreme cases, mostly they're just very stubborn about their Fi values with very little objectivity to back it up.
    You TOTALLY understand what I've been saying all this time about Fi, then.

    It's the fact that it seems like it has nothing to do with the outer world, or doesn't make sense a lot of the time, that makes me have trouble with it.
    Good thing, though, that their Fi is more developed than an ENFPs, so they can be extremely ethical...or extremely not. :/
    Oh, believe me... I've seen both extremes. In those cases, they tend to either make me feel like a demon for no good reason, or act like a demon themselves. I guess not all of them are like that, though.
    On the other hand, an INFP lacking Te will never steamroll you like an ENFP hyped up on a half-crazed Fi mission with a hefty Te push.

    Yes, Te is wonderful - when balanced with Fi.

    Yet even Fi-doms without good Te development still serve a purpose, and it's important to acknowledge that they do...they *can* bring peace, tolerance, beauty, and creativity to the world...those things are important.

    And even when their Fi is bad, the cool thing about IxFPs is that they usually won't bother anybody if they lack Te, and won't want to be in any positions of power, so you can relax on that front.

    Any type can go wrong. Every type has it's gifts.
    I've felt verbally steamrolled by an INFP on the forums before... felt like I was being dictated to about right and wrong, and being chastised for not FEELING their sense of ethics within me, without even being told. And if I try to accommodate them, respect their wishes... that's never good enough for them if I can't internalize their ethics.

    But I suppose it's a relief to know that their bark is worse than their bite. I keep expecting them to pounce on me any moment like an enraged ESTJ, only for reasons that make less sense to me. Probably because I'm only "seeing" their inferior Te that they're not even aware of projecting, and missing Fi completely.

    It could also have something to do with Fi serving as the "Witch/Senex" function for me, like someone else said, causing me to experience it as something negative and limiting.

  6. #96
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    Hmm, yes, Fi *can* seem to have nothing to do with the world...if it's over-emphasized, imbalanced, or bad.

    Same could be said of Te, though. I'm over my little Fi snit about INTJs (I suddenly feel very appreciative of them, collectively, again) ...but I still want to state that I observed some INTJs on INTJforum who seemed almost dead to Fi ...and that's some scary shit too.

    Using Te *without enough Fi* to try to understand people or relationships is a dreadful, sad, sorry thing...it also appears to have very little to do with the real world, believe it or not ...that is, the real world of people and society and human relationships.It's like trying to repair a dishwasher with a fishing pole. Fishing poles work fine for fishing, but not for household repairs.

    So I don't want to hate on Fi, and don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting Te *above* Fi...they just have to be balanced with each other.

    Fi when it is mature and balanced is deeply ethical and sees the common goodness in human beings and tries to protect their individuality and rights.

    But I know what you mean about the preachy. I've witnessed that, too. But as an ENFP...I'm like, orly? That's nice. *headpat*

    Of course, those same INFPs probably want to drown me in boiling oil for being so obnoxious and uncouth, so there you go.

  7. #97
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Cognitive functions do NOT exist in isolation. All Jungian-based typologies recognize this. Te comes into play. The way Te vs Fi is weighed is different from Fe vs Ti. For Te/Fi, there are practical, logistical constraints to Fi, and personal, values, liberty-oriented constraints upon Te expediencies. Either alone is insanity. Together, it is quite sane and balanced. I don't understand Fe/Ti as well, but there should be a parallel, something like there are practical, subjective, people-related constraints to Ti, and personal, logical constraints upon Fe peer-pressures.
    I totally agree that Fi paired with Te makes sense.

    I've actually put forward the idea before that all the functions exist together with their opposites. You know, Se/Ni, Ne/Si, Ti/Fe, Fi/Te?

    It's just that no one has been mentioning the Te side and how it shapes/restrains the Fi worldview until now.

    The "loyalty" is to a practical ideal (Te), not to a social group (Fe). There is no "emotion" vested in procedures/laws/regulations as long as they don't affect personal Fi-values.

    @bolded: that's your assumption, and it's a common Fe/Ti assumption. But in Te/Fi land, it isn't a common "identity" so much as a common set of practical interests (Te). Te/Fi is very much a "live and let live (unless it is practically impossible)" approach. Te is how we live together, Fi is our personal space, and "boundaries" are the border between the two.
    Hmm... well, that works, once again. I can see Fi as perfectly reasonable and necessary within the context of a Te framework.



    You don't feel it because you "feel" the "logistics" (Fe), so you're wondering why the value judgments aren't extroverted. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as Ti is working in parallel, and the synthesis of the two yields a sane result. Te/Fi doesn't "feel" the logistics. There is little or no emotion in terms of "justice" as a group ideal, but there is a lot of emotion in terms of "why are people (as individuals) hurting?"
    Well, I suppose that's what it is all about... I don't have feelings about the sort of things Fi "feels" about. My feelings end up being about the sort of things Fi users normally leave to the domain of Te, and they seem to be getting emotional over a process that I think should be devoid of emotion. The reason I don't see their logic, is because they don't express Te as well as TJs do, and I don't think to look for Te motivations when they're not expressed well.

    In other words, Fi/Te seems "backwards," but as long as both of them are backwards, I can see how the whole structure could work.

    Fi works pretty well in an INTJ, although I do fear it can be a weakness for them at times, making them weak and vulnerable to being hurt badly. I always feel bad and concerned for an INTJ who has been dealt a nasty Fi wound by someone who knows how. It can really cripple them.

    So, I've noticed that I'm far less uncomfortable with the way Fi is described in a tertiary role by INTJs, or even an auxiliary role by ENFPs... it's the idea of it having it as a dominant function that doesn't compute.

    I suppose even an INFP has to absorb some Te from their environment to counterbalance Fi... perhaps not enough for anyone else to understand their values, but some at least.

  8. #98
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I keep expecting them to pounce on me any moment like an enraged ESTJ,
    Some may. The bad thing about inferiors is that they are unproductive. Not that they're nonexistent. They may be harsher than ETJ, just like some INJs more indulgent than ESP. My own little pet theory is that environment affects this deeply too. If you're an IFP who grows up conflicting with a particular brand of harsh Te, it's going to color the IFP's expression of Te, and how it thinks things need to be done. Especially, when they're younger and Ne or Se is not developed in their own right. In that case, the IFP is taking in more information about the world in how it clashes with Fi (that is, Te).

  9. #99
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, okay. Those principles work fine in theory. But what if you find yourself in a situation where one group of people... is causing tons of problems for the majority of people, and the only way to stop them is to kill them? Suppose that they're all, say, crazy suicide bombers/gorillas or something, and they're constantly trying to dominate, frighten, and force us to their way of life. Isn't there such a thing as a situation in which it's necessary to exterminate a group of people, because failing to do so will spell doom and misery for the group of people that you represent?
    sure. kill 'em. Fi =/= no T

    In other words, Fi/Te seems "backwards," but as long as both of them are backwards, I can see how the whole structure could work.


    even if you and i use different processes, we'll probably often end up at the same conclusions. in this case: it is unfortunate but necessary to destroy this group of people. a NeFi individual will probably linger at the place of seeing if there are any other possible options, but if there are no other solutions, then it becomes a necessity to destroy few to protect many. EFP may tend to come to this conclusion more quickly than IFP, for better or worse.

    and to expand on what uumlau has said about Fi/Te balance, i think what ends up happening is that for a Fi dom/aux, we reach certain points (like this situation) at which Te becomes sort of necessary for our sanity. probably the same for a Te dom/aux in regards to Fi. if we didn't have the opposite function, we wouldn't be able to handle situations requiring either objectivity or subjectivity.

    if it's any consolation, Fe/Ti feels totally backwards to me too, lol.

    But you CAN'T just believe that each person is important individually... there have to be some people who are more important than others. There have to be leaders, there has to be an authority. There has to be something to hold people together in a group, a common identity, or else you have anarchy. You have to have a loyalty to a particular group over another. You can't just... treat them all equally. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work in reality. Ever.
    you're right, it doesn't.

    but you can't always have the opposite, either. you can't always treat everyone relationally; every person has to have individual agency to some extent, or we may as well be sorted into castes at birth. correspondingly, it would be nice if we could all have our places we fit in the group and are most productive and safe, but then we would lose freedom and the right to make our own choices, free of group loyalty.

    in a Fi mindset, groups can be important too (i love groups!), but one tends to be more loyal to the ideals of a group than the people themselves, because we don't look at people in this relational way. the shared commitment to certain ideals (Fi) and goals (Te) is what mostly binds me to other people in a group. when i compare myself to an NFJ friend in a group we share, i think she tends to consider the group as a people-whole first, as defined by its purpose. i tend to consider the group as a collection of individuals united by a purpose. look how similarly we operate... the difference is very subtle...

    What about heinous criminals? We can't just treat them as though they're as valuable as the victims, and thus reward them. The whole concept of enemies and friends is at odds with your way of thinking.
    to some extent, yes. but like uumlau explained, no function occurs in a vacuum. we have Te to be able to objectively deal with situations like that. i understand well the principles of reinforcement; i'm not going to reward someone who is hurting others. but that's not the same as acknowledging that at some level they have inherent value as a living being, if that makes sense. even heinous criminals deserve an attempt to understand them - even if we end up having to kill them for the sake of protecting society. there are benefits to understanding how our enemies are similar to us; it is an essential part of the peace process. most often enmity occurs simply over misunderstanding one another.

    This is insanity. I... give up. I cannot understand. I do not feel it! It isn't THERE for me. I'm sorry. I'm sure I violate these principles every day of my life. I think that we are just destined to misunderstand one another forever.
    no despair

    Fi and Fe work towards the same purpose! Fe protects individuals by taking care of the group; Fi protects the group by taking care of individuals. Fe and Fi are really not so foreign to one another as concepts. they just becomes confusing when we put them into play. go find an FP to interact with IRL. seeing Fi/Te in action is probably much more understandable than hearing us talk about it, because i suspect you and i tend to use different language to express the same feelings and concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    I think the Te/Fi combo works out really well in ENFPs, but I have trouble seeing how INFPs would make it work. I mean, they're stuck with inferior Te... it seems like it would be kind of hard for them to compensate for that and become more balanced.
    yeah, perhaps so. i have seen an INFP get stuck at a Fi level before. she was very wrapped up in herself and had trouble interacting with the world. but i get lost in Ne sometimes, too. and i know you NFJs are prone to getting lost in Ni.

    they do have better S than us. whereas you and i, we're just totally off our rockers

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    On the other hand, an INFP lacking Te will never steamroll you like an ENFP hyped up on a half-crazed Fi mission with a hefty Te push. [...]
    And even when their Fi is bad, the cool thing about IxFPs is that they usually won't bother anybody if they lack Te, and won't want to be in any positions of power, so you can relax on that front.
    the lady has her points.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Some may. The bad thing about inferiors is that they are unproductive. Not that they're nonexistent. They may be harsher than ETJ, just like some INJs more indulgent than ESP. My own little pet theory is that environment affects this deeply too. If you're an INP who grows up conflicting with a particular brand of harsh Te, it's going to color the IFP's expression of Te, and how it thinks things need to be done. Especially, when they're younger and Ne or Se is not developed in their own right.. and the IFP is taking in more information about the world in how it clashes with Fi (that is, Te).
    I agree with you on all points. It rang a bell actually when Athenian said preachy, self-righteous INFPs seemed almost scary and restrictive (I don't see them that way when they're in that state, like I mentioned, I downgrade them to merely annoying...which probably makes them angrier...and I guess that's how INTJs feel about ENFPs in that state...other types might be scared of the bulldozing ENFP, NTJ is just like "oh you're being such a brat" which pisses the ENFP off more)...it made me realize that the Te clearly *exists* it's just it's not...moving? Or something.

    I think my Te is nasty sometimes -- especially if I'm also too wrapped up in my Fi ---- because I was raised by an unstable crazy invasive bulldozer of an ESTJ, and a much more stable but emotionally distant ISTJ for most of my life (aside from my first six years with ISFJ grandma, thank heaven for her...). So my Te looks kind of like my ESTJ step-grandmother sometimes, my own mother has told me so. Not good. Fortunately, IRL, this only shows itself outwardly on an occasional basis.

    On the other hand, I couldn't have gotten through my life so far without my tertiary Te. No way. I would have crumbled.

    My Si is much more "useless"...I use it for enjoying my favorite songs over and over again, having nostalgia, and habitually repeating certain patterns. I suck at detail, am annoyed by detail for the most part. HOWEVER, I've recently realized that a lot of my creative writing is inspired by my Si, which is actually really cool (Ne taking Si stores and making something new of it).

    So I don't think the inferior is *always* "unproductive."

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