[MBTI General] you must love yourself before anyone else can love you.

[Kollin]

yeah- before my 'grand realization,' part of that disquiet i mentioned feeling definitely had to do with feeling like this must in some way be sort of a cliche that bordered on being an excuse.

thanks

I had a thought later about that maybe this adage is talking more about being comfortable in your own skin...idk, just a thought

 

[luminous beam]

"you must love yourself before anyone else can love you"
If you don't love yourself, you won't be able to perceive happiness, self esteem and confidence, and without those things you may not be very attractive to others...and even if you find someone to love you, it won't be before too long before your insecurities and things arise and may weigh you down and cause you to screw things up for yourself and in the relationship, you may not think you're good enough or worthy of being in the relationship or with that certain individual. Self sabotaging could be an unconscious act that you do w/o even realizing it. You could be in denial that you dislike or even hate yourself.



"you must love yourself before you can love another"
My response to this is somewhat similar to the quote above in that if you are unhappy and inscure about yourself it'll get in the way of you providing unconditional love. You will also question how worthy you are of another and so on, and because of this, not be able to really offer them what you're capable of.

 

[nolla]

what if someone was actually pretty great, but due mostly to the influence and input of others with malicious intent they had come to perceive of themself as worthless and broken. i don't want to paint a picture here of someone who is timid and victimized, but rather of someone who has a strong character, who acts on this negative concept of themself by putting themself continually 'through the ringer' in their attempts to become a better person. what could redemptive love look like in that scenario, what kind of a person would the redeemer have to be? this seems like a plausible scenario to me.

Hmm... I don't think I have ever met anyone who has poor self image and is still himself. I think that self-respect is one really big element in freeing yourself to be you. Still, if we think about the redeemer, he obviously needs to be someone who

1) Sees through the poor self to the true self or potential self.
I don't think that this is possible to many (if anyone) because mostly we project. Therefore:

2) Is healthy enough not to project.
Which means that the redeemer should be someone very very rare. He should be like super-healthy psychologically.

3) Is willing to make the effort.
To think how rare the people are who can see past the poor self, it is highly unlikely that one of them is actually willing to make the effort. I think a person with superior psychological health is likely to go and find someone equal.

So, for practicality, I might say it is once in a million chance. Compared to that, "love yourself" works better. Of course, I am not of superior psychological health, so I might not know what the redeemer would think.

 

[elfsprin]

as a T, i feel a strong need to comprehend and understand why a partner might love me, which i think is something that lies at the heart of this adage's validity for me.

how do any Fs around here experience this need to intellectually comprehend a partner's love- the motivations, how their love may reveal things about their character based on what they seem to value, the internal standards or sets of criteria they operate with which are evinced by their emotions, etc.? does it play a substantial role in your romantic relationships?

one thing i've heard a lot about is the magical 'i just know' when it comes to love. i feel that it relates to the topic because i personally feel that my penchant for analysis-ad-nauseam, which i have to fight quite relentlessly to turn off, may at many times be really and truly inappropriate. i do feel that most of my dissatisfaction with myself is justified, and that it's a positive thing overall because i find overzealous self-critique to be far preferable to self-deceit. but, on the other hand, some of this beratement that i toss my own way might be way over the top and blown out of proportion, and i have a really hard time seeing that clearly. i think this works the other way around as well: i end up over analyzing the actions, words and emotions that are sent my way by someone that i'm in a relationship with because i need to understand it in an intellectual capacity. so, i feel like this ties into the thread topic, as the antithesis to over-analyzing seems to be the 'i just know' phenomenon.

i wonder if Fs tend to experience love from another person primarily through 'just knowing' and secondarily through comprehension? it seems like the obvious answer might be yes, but i'm asking anyway it almost seems like Fi might desire comprehension over 'just knowing' in a way that is very similar to the Ti urge to understand. has that been anyone's experience?

 

[Jack Flak]

Less talk, more love!

 

[Amargith]

i wonder if Fs tend to experience love from another person primarily through 'just knowing' and secondarily through comprehension? it seems like the obvious answer might be yes, but i'm asking anyway it almost seems like Fi might desire comprehension over 'just knowing' in a way that is very similar to the Ti urge to understand. has that been anyone's experience?

The short answer, at least for me, is yes.

I've had problems with my self-esteem as long as I can remember. But, despite that, I did know when a guy was interested, and when a partner loved me. It drove me mad though as for the life of me I couldn't understand (and believe me, I tried), but there was no denying it. I quickly learned that although I might not see what those guys see in me, they were being nonetheless truthful when showing interest, friendship and even love for me.

Less talk, more love!

I'm always happy to comply (within reason )

 

[Jack Flak]

I'm always happy to comply (within reason )

This is excellent news. Reason happens to be my speciality.

 

[elfsprin]

Well, hey. I’ve grown up quite a bit more now *gold star* lol. I’ve worked /am working through trauma and I’ve figured out how to live as authentically as I can.

I find I can love myself, and I can love others, and other can love me.

I mean in some ways I can still be a hot mess, but that’s ok.

 

[Luminous]

Hmm... I don't think I have ever met anyone who has poor self image and is still himself. I think that self-respect is one really big element in freeing yourself to be you. Still, if we think about the redeemer, he obviously needs to be someone who

1) Sees through the poor self to the true self or potential self.
I don't think that this is possible to many (if anyone) because mostly we project. Therefore:

2) Is healthy enough not to project.
Which means that the redeemer should be someone very very rare. He should be like super-healthy psychologically.

3) Is willing to make the effort.
To think how rare the people are who can see past the poor self, it is highly unlikely that one of them is actually willing to make the effort. I think a person with superior psychological health is likely to go and find someone equal.

So, for practicality, I might say it is once in a million chance. Compared to that, "love yourself" works better. Of course, I am not of superior psychological health, so I might not know what the redeemer would think.

Maybe I'm rare (I'd like to think I'm not that rare in this case [#not4 ]), but I think it's extremely possible and not all that difficult to see a person's true core, even if they can't see it themselves. There can be an advantage in not necessarily having preconceived notions of what they should be, though that is probably far easier if the people get to know each other prior to getting romantically involved, where it's more likely, for me, to want to see all the good things, at the possible expense of overlooking bad things (which I can do in friendships too, but the investment levels differ). Regarding 3, some people and connections are very rare and inherently worth it. If the person is just simply wonderful, the work or commitment is a small price to pay for love. If there's respect and trust and kindness, no price is too high. There is no 'equal'; everyone is on a growth path, whether they realize it or not. Though that doesn't mean there isn't a static self that is the wellspring of all the values that inspire another's true love.

as a T, i feel a strong need to comprehend and understand why a partner might love me, which i think is something that lies at the heart of this adage's validity for me.

how do any Fs around here experience this need to intellectually comprehend a partner's love- the motivations, how their love may reveal things about their character based on what they seem to value, the internal standards or sets of criteria they operate with which are evinced by their emotions, etc.? does it play a substantial role in your romantic relationships?

one thing i've heard a lot about is the magical 'i just know' when it comes to love. i feel that it relates to the topic because i personally feel that my penchant for analysis-ad-nauseam, which i have to fight quite relentlessly to turn off, may at many times be really and truly inappropriate. i do feel that most of my dissatisfaction with myself is justified, and that it's a positive thing overall because i find overzealous self-critique to be far preferable to self-deceit. but, on the other hand, some of this beratement that i toss my own way might be way over the top and blown out of proportion, and i have a really hard time seeing that clearly. i think this works the other way around as well: i end up over analyzing the actions, words and emotions that are sent my way by someone that i'm in a relationship with because i need to understand it in an intellectual capacity. so, i feel like this ties into the thread topic, as the antithesis to over-analyzing seems to be the 'i just know' phenomenon.

i wonder if Fs tend to experience love from another person primarily through 'just knowing' and secondarily through comprehension? it seems like the obvious answer might be yes, but i'm asking anyway it almost seems like Fi might desire comprehension over 'just knowing' in a way that is very similar to the Ti urge to understand. has that been anyone's experience?

I think the experience has been largely dependent on my level of security, in the context of the relationship, in my partner's expression and whether it's in my love languages, in how withholding they are, and with how I feel about myself and interpret all the other factors. They are all important in developing the trust it takes for me to not overanalyze/ruminate.

Well, hey. I’ve grown up quite a bit more now *gold star* lol. I’ve worked /am working through trauma and I’ve figured out how to live as authentically as I can.

I find I can love myself, and I can love others, and other can love me.

I mean in some ways I can still be a hot mess, but that’s ok.

That's fantastic.

 

[SgtP3pper]

You have to be healthy before you can have a healthy relationship. Yes it's true.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

You need to love yourself before you receive parental love! Do toddlers love themselves?

 

[SgtP3pper]

You need to love yourself before you receive parental love! Do toddlers love themselves?

Toddlers love their feet in their mouths.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I've always hated this adage and saw it as ridiculous. All you need to do to prove its inaccuracy is think of parents.

 

[GoggleGirl17]

I don't think it can be denied that how we feel about ourselves is influenced by our external reality. If we receive the feedback that we are unlovable in some way, again and again, that conclusion is going to ingrain itself in us because the idea of being "lovable" is relationally dependent. There could be many reasons why we received that kind of feedback which hasn't much to do with us at all, and we may even try to disguise the symptoms, but until we balance it with feedback which contradicts our past experiences, we won't feel like it's true or like we're being honest with ourselves, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise. It will always be that thorn in our side that shows itself more the closer we get to people. I absolutely think love from someone stable and emotionally available who is capable of accepting us in the specific ways we need to feel accepted can relieve us of our neuroticisms, but it is a process that requires not only words, but actions consistent with them, to prove that we can finally trust and relax.

What I do think is a problem is sometimes when the trauma is very deep, some people try to test others' trustworthiness by creating an identity around some rejected part of themselves, and try to reinforce it because they desperately want others to notice it and not run the other way, but most will, because the person is not truly being authentic by doing this. They are being emotionally closed off and projecting a one-dimensional, false image of themselves that represents how they feel they are seen by others, so they will never feel accepted until they can become more vulnerable. Only then will they not feel threatened by the possibility of changing things they actually do want to change about themselves, and come across more like an ever-evolving human being with their own unique essence than some stuck or broken archetype. Do we need to be a certain way or reach some divine, abstract ideal to be genuinely appreciated for what we are, though? No. This is also true for people who try to change themselves superficially but never open up, because then they only attract people who accept the façade.

 

[Hypatia]

I think this is quite a common fear, actually, and it’s sad it has to plague the very best of humanity, although I’ve heard premonitions of it sprinkle through previous conversations of the subject. I don’t know what causes it. I don’t know whether many people are just so fundamentally uncompassionate at heart that it’s almost like a self-crucification of sorts, like a Dostoyevskian sense of— I know I’m a fool, what’s the sense that someone else isn’t, which always has a kind of Kantian INFJ sense to it— how can I trust that someone else truly loves me? as applied to the demon INTP thought experiment of— can reality really exist aside from my subjective apperceptions (a fundamentally INTP fear, I believe— as that is how I conceptualize Ti-prominent fears in general.)

Self-trust is important, I believe, with also a dash of forgiveness for things I believe that can fundamentally be changed for the better. Faith about priorities, faith about love, faith about friendship, and the transformative aspects about the nature of faith itself. All these, I believe, can assist a self that is searching for the longevity and trust in personal meaning.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

[I've posted the following message elsewhere; just thought I would throw it here in this thread as well.]

"You must first love yourself before you love another. By accepting yourself and joyfully being what you are, you fulfill your own abilities, and your simple presence can make others happy."
--Quote from Jane Roberts’ “The Nature of Personal Reality,” which was published in 1974

A lot of these "love yourself" quotes and ideas get passed around in the "self-esteem movement." And there's some truth to the quotes in that context: People with low self-esteem tend to be crappy partners.

Imagine the person who lacks a basic sense of self-efficacy, feels unworthy or undeserving of the love or respect of others, feels unentitled to happiness, and is fearful of asserting thoughts, wants, or needs, and so on. They are going to be needy, clingy, and codependent. They are going to make their partner responsible for their happiness, and because they are poor communicators (unassertive) they are going to require that their partner read their mind to keep them happy. They look for someone to rescue them from themselves, but more often than not they just drive away the partner with their insatiable neediness.

When people with low self-esteem do find a partner, it's often an abuser of one sort or another, because abusers can take advantage of the fears and paranoias of those with poor self-esteem. And the person with poor self-esteem puts up with it because in their opinion abuse is better than rejection.

Of course, the scenarios that I'm describing are "worst-case scenarios." Everything is on a spectrum, so there is lots of gray area here. Nonetheless, it's generally accepted that poor self-esteem is not a good ingredient for healthy relationships.

On the positive side, there's a counter-argument: "The way to gain confidence (and get a feeling of self-efficacy) is to put yourself out there and give it a try. If you don't take chances, how can you improve?"

That's a fair argument. But be aware: If you're starting from a low level of accomplishment in any given endeavor, then you're probably going to crash and burn on the first couple attempts. In other words, the previous argument is still going to hold true: If you have low self-esteem, you're probably going to be a crappy partner at first. Or you'll end up with a crappy partner, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

But hey, life is for learning. Each time you rise from the wreckage of a bad relationship, you learn something from the experience. Read some self-help books, get some therapy if necessary, and keep trying.

The main thing is to realize that poor self-esteem is a big handicap, and there's no magic wand that will fix it for you. You just have to fight through it.

Disclaimers: This is just my own personal opinion, I'm not a shrink, blah blah blah...

[ETA:] For those looking for some reading on the subject, the following book is considered a classic on building self-esteem in general (that is, not just in relationships): The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem, by Nathaniel Branden (pub. 1994)

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Why Some People Hate Receiving Compliments

What determines whether someone enjoys compliments or whether they turn sour at the first hint of positive feedback?

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Sacrophagus]

"you must love yourself before anyone else can love you."

One of the most misunderstood guidelines that breeds a bunch of selfish narcissists thinking that it works because it attracts people with low self-esteem towards them.

The way I see that adage on a personal level is different. Helping unconditionally and working on the progress of others whether on a personal level or on systems that serve them is a form of self-love. It has to be unconditional, one has to own it, and not complain if others did not react the way they expect them to. In fact, it is unconditional because you should not expect anything in return. However, those who help others day in and day out expecting them silently to do things for them as well is not a form of self-love, but rather a call of self-validation. They end up bitter and stop giving proving that they did not love themselves in the first place. If you want something in return, make it clear in the beginning and spare yourself and other people the drama.

This comes under the definition of stoicism as well as Amor Fati. Ultimately, everyone will display their form of self-love in different ways.