[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

[mcmartinez84]

Are you sure that's because he's an ENTP, or maybe just because he's a jerk?

lol, I can attribute some of that to the fact that he's a bit of a jerk.
Some of it tho, is just how we think about things.

 

[Sinmara]

Let's stay on topic, guys. If you want to discuss the similarities between xSTP and xNTP maybe you should start another thread.

 

[Heinel]

That's interesting. One of my best friends is an ISTP, and he can follow exactly anything I theorize, provided I give the logical chain that leads to it. Same with my ESTP friend - he always jokes that he's a complete idiot, but he's not; he's got a master's degree. It's that he understands exactly what my ENFJ friend and I come up with as far as ideas go, but he wouldn't necessarily think of them in the first place. Ti understands how Ti works, no matter the personality type.

That's precisely my point. We start off with different perceived facts (which is another way to put "viewpoint"), if the Ti process is not explained, we usually do not draw the same kind of conclusions.

That's exactly how Ni works - taking a component of a situation, breaking it down into further components, manipulating them and finding the hidden pattern or truth within them.

I do not deal with a component of a situation. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "situation" correctly, but I definitely do not find hidden pattern of truth (That sounded totally Ne to me) when I theorize. I create the patterns and shape the truth the way I wanted it.

=====

PS: And just for pettycure, this line of thinking is also what I use for manipulation, when I choose to do it

 

[stellar renegade]

xSTPs tend to be very self-aware. We generally don't have many unconscious behaviors or unacknowledged motivations because just as we are constantly categorizing and analyzing the world around us, we're also constantly doing the same to ourselves and trouble-shooting and picking ourselves apart in our own heads. I once told a guy I was dating when he pointed out what he thought would be a dramatic revelation about me and I just shrugged and admitted to it without missing a beat, "Just because I don't admit a flaw about myself to you doesn't mean I'm blindly ignorant of it. I know exactly what's going on in my head." Again, not to speak in absolutes, because I'm sure there are some dumbass xSTPs out there who need a boot up their asses, but this is how most xSTPs are.

hahahaha... omg, yep, I'm definitely constantly picking things apart in my head! I wondered whether this was an ESTP trait or not, but that makes so much sense now. I act all affectionate and lovey dovey and nice on the outside, but on the inside I'm a vicious analytical machine, coldly picking situations and people apart to get the most advantage out of 'em.

Yes, I'm aware of every one of my weaknesses.

Now, I have to confess something here. There are a ton of tactics I learned as a wee one that I got into the habit of and have now forgotten for some reason or another. Probably because I realized that the easiest way to hide the fact that I was scheming and manipulating would be to hide it from myself, too, because of my tendency to be overly honest. So now comes the hard part of recognizing what's actually a tactic. But now that you've laid this all out so beautifully, I realize it's ALL tactics, for good or ill.

We don't do unintentional manipulation. It's just not how we think or operate. If you see one of us trying to extend our influence over another person, even if it's over something small and inconsequential, we've already thought ahead to the endgame with a few contingency plans in our back pocket for just in case. That is how the mind of an xSTP works -- when it comes to dealing with other people, it's all at the forefront. Just because we don't pipe up and declare our intentions doesn't mean we're unaware. We are conscious of what we're doing every single time. You may not see this because we tend to play things very close to the chest and don't like to reveal too many of our trade secrets.

Manipulation is at the forefront of my mind, but I would say that my view of it may not be as clear-cut as yours because I was taught as a young one that manipulation was bad (let's not argue semantics over the definition of manipulation, plz). I know very well that the best way to get someone to go along with a plan or scheme, even oneself, is to change one's viewpoint of it. I was always very good at this, especially double-speaking and using words in an ambiguous sort of way. I found out early on this was the easiest way to get what I wanted. The only problem was that, in order to keep myself from revealing my tactics to others, I at least thought that I would have to bury it out of my own mind as well.

Thus my tendency to do manipulative things without realizing it, to act nice when I'm really just trying to get my own way. My ISFJ BFF always says, "You're such a faker!" Tonight I responded with, "You're insightful," and she said it was easy to see through it, and I asked her why so many people don't then when I'm not really even trying, and she said cuz they're dumb. haha.

My ENTP friend would see through it, too, and years and years after I'd forgotten why I do things in a certain way, he'd call me out on my hidden tactics and I'd either deny it or be like, "Oh, shit, that really does look like what I'm doing... maybe it is... hah"

Manipulation is not the natural, constant state of xSTPs. The natural state of an xSTP is to be blunt and honest, often to the point of sounding tactless. (I've often been told I have all the tact of a blunt axe. ;D) It's easier to be honest than it is to have your manipulation switch flipped to the ON position all the time. It's just not practical. We can't always be strategizing in our heads and forecasting the next move; that's a skill we turn on and off as needed. If someone asks us our opinion, we're more likely to tell the god's honest truth than say what they want to hear. There have to be other factors in play to make us behave contrary to what comes naturally to us.

So, to say that xSTPs are always manipulative to some degree without realizing it because that is the constant and natural pattern of thought we always use isn't really accurate.

I welcome the other xSTPs to affirm or dispute this, but I'm pretty sure I have it right.

Yeah, well I choose to be tactful because it tends to give you charm with others and cause them to like you more, thus being lulled into becoming friends and doing more things with you and for you.

You have to remember we're very political. We're not so much about the truth for the sake of truth like the Rational NT's are, but for the sake of some kind of activity. So if the activity at stake depends on us being completely blunt and even tactless, we will be, but otherwise we may try to play it cool, depending on the XSTP, I'm sure. For this reason we may often appear to others to be very agreeable.

I had an ESTP coworker who would nod while he was talking so you'd mirror his body language and nod, too, which sent an unconscious signal to your brain to begin agreeing, maybe due to body memory. It was slick, I tell ya what!

Somebody should give that dude an award!

Anyway, thanks for helping me recover a lost part of myself. I will now implement it once again with a full-blown fury that even the gods have never seen.

 

[Poki]

hahahaha... omg, yep, ....

:yim_rolling_on_the_

I do not deal with a component of a situation. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "situation" correctly, but I definitely do not find hidden pattern of truth (That sounded totally Ne to me) when I theorize. I create the patterns and shape the truth the way I wanted it.

And I can tell this bolded part by some of your replies. The key is do you believe this truth? I myself dont find a pattern across multiple things, that is Ne. I look at a single situation and pull the theory or the why out of that, then see how it fits across other situations. Its the opposite of Ne.

 

[mcmartinez84]

And I can tell this bolded part by some of your replies. The key is do you believe this truth? I myself dont find a pattern across multiple things, that is Ne. I look at a single situation and pull the theory or the why out of that, then see how it fits across other situations. Its the opposite of Ne.

Meeeeee too!

 

[man]

i hate when istp trolls u

 

[Poki]

i hate when istp trolls u

Thats just your tertiary Ni causing you to fear that "the man" is after you. So who is your man? He may have a crush on you

 

[Charmed Justice]

Thats just your tertiary Ni causing you to fear that "the man" is after you. So who is your man? He may have a crush on you

I'm going to troll right now just to say that I luvs you STPs!!

 

[Poki]

I'm going to troll right now just to say that I luvs you STPs!!

oh, wait, im istp not estp

 

[Charmed Justice]

Haha, take those headphones off! Any SPness will do.

 

[Heinel]

And I can tell this bolded part by some of your replies. The key is do you believe this truth? I myself dont find a pattern across multiple things, that is Ne. I look at a single situation and pull the theory or the why out of that, then see how it fits across other situations. Its the opposite of Ne.

Your way sounds more Ni to me. I think that is what onemoretime is trying to describe, too.

However, the truth, to me, are only relevant in so far as it helps me achieve what I want to achieve. You ask me whether I believe in them myself, I will say "roughly" yes.

 

[stellar renegade]

And I can tell this bolded part by some of your replies. The key is do you believe this truth? I myself dont find a pattern across multiple things, that is Ne. I look at a single situation and pull the theory or the why out of that, then see how it fits across other situations. Its the opposite of Ne.

Hey, that's what I do! But then I easily find evidence to contradict my "theories" thus nullifying all that type of thought.

I do better just observing what's happening in the moment.

Thats just your tertiary Ni causing you to fear that "the man" is after you. So who is your man? He may have a crush on you

What man, who's the man, when's a man a man, why's it so hard to be a man? Am I a man? Yes, technically I am...

I'm going to troll right now just to say that I luvs you STPs!!

We know.

We wuvs u, 2.