[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

[Kingfisher]

I would say I am not a people person at all, yet people like my company for down time, personal time, etc. Just to hang out with, talk to, help them, etc. I can and will do anything by myself, yet people I know like to tag along with me and like my company. I notice this especially with SFP, NFP, and STP types, not so much NTPs.

yeah, i think it is about creating meaningful personal connections. when people find one they like to hold on to it.

i can relate to what you said. i really enjoy it a lot, i love when people actively want to hang out with me. there is a significance to it. it is energizing.

 

[mcmartinez84]

I would say I'm exceptionally bad at manipulating people, actually (though I'm not sure I've consiously tried, I have a fuzzy idea of what it means). Can't speak for other stps though, and I believe Estps, like entps, are very talented at this. Fe would probably be useful for this, and mine is not the greatest.

+1
The only "power" I have is that of reasoning with people. I can try my best to present my case and hope they see it the way I do. It works sometimes, but flops others. I don't like forcing people into doing things they don't want to do. My ENTP friend has no problem doing that. He's a bit ruthless at times. It honestly makes me uncomfortable.

Stick me around a table of people I dont know and I am bored. Stick me with someone who has a common interest and I will talk, put me in a place where the common interest is put into practice like actually 4 wheeling and I will have some fun.

Yep. +1
That's about all I have to say about it.

 

[millerm277]

Well, first off:

I am incredibly manipulative. Sorry, but....I'm very good at reading people, and knowing exactly what I can and can't do with them. I could, but don't manipulate them for bad purposes. I am manipulative in the sense of getting what I want from people "above" me, like police officers, teachers, and bosses. I have never guessed wrong before, and there are certainly things I can't get from certain people, but for the times when I've thought I could, I always have been successful.

My ability to read people, is also really helpful for getting people to do things they don't want to do. It makes me uncomfortable to do that (and I don't) for bad purposes, but I've helped a large number of friends through substance abuse issues and other problems (like cutting class because they're lazy in HS/College). How? Because I instinctively know how much I can push, how much I can make fun of, how much I can threaten, etc, with a specific person.

 

[McRumi]

I laughed at this, said "Including people," ....

Absolutely. I have no interest in finding out how things (cars, stereos, etc) work, but have always wanted to figure out how humans work. I do think the distinction between the E and the I is that the E does use that info to manipulate others whereas the I uses the same info to protect his or her own "space." One is offensive (literally and figuratively), the other defensive.

The ISTP troubleshoots any internal or external matter....fellow humans included. The object of the troubleshooting (be it a car or a roommate) is a matter of choice and preference...it is the troubleshooting and the what-makes-this-thing/person-tick itself that is the constant.

 

[Poki]

Absolutely. I have no interest in finding out how things (cars, stereos, etc) work, but have always wanted to figure out how humans work. I do think the distinction between the E and the I is that the E does use that info to manipulate others whereas the I uses the same info to protect his or her own "space." One is offensive (literally and figuratively), the other defensive.

The ISTP troubleshoots any internal or external matter....fellow humans included. The object of the troubleshooting (be it a car or a roommate) is a matter of choice and preference...it is the troubleshooting and the what-makes-this-thing/person-tick itself that is the constant.

I like to troubleshoot/figure out pretty much anything and everything. In regards to just general manipulation not just within people. I am good at finding ways to get things done whether its following a set of rules or figuring out a workaround. And I would agree to the defensive part as opposed to offensive.

 

[Poki]

Thinking about it a little more I would say that troubleshooting is the essence of myself. It requires almost no energy on my part and I can sit for hours, possibly days troubleshooting without any anger/frustration/exhaustion/etc. Resting only because my brain literally starts to hurt and I have to eat.

Pretty much every problem in life is handled in a troublshooting/objective matter. Looking at the facts, digging in, suggesting/trying solutions.

I read somewhere, I dont know where, that for an ISTP to really grow they need to take their strength and ability and turn it within towards themself.

Now I turned this to a troubleshooting thread, back to the manipulation topic

 

[jixmixfix]

I don't know about you guys but I'm good at making excuses at work for shit that get toppled on me. In terms of troubleshooting overclocking my dual core processor from 1.8 to 2.4 was fun I had to tinker with the voltages and timings for hours, but that's because I enjoyed the end result of having a higher processor speed on my computer.

 

[Snuggletron]

more porn faster

 

[Uytuun]

Lol, yes, manipulation all around for at least ESTPs. And how furious they get when you point out to them what they're trying to do (because to their mind, what they are asking is completely logical).

I think it is an awesome skill. At the same time, I cannot not respect it.

That said, I have found that ESTPs can completely misinterpret other people as well...it seems that their forte is influence rather than complete understanding...they are too self-invested to truly be masters at understanding.

 

[Halla74]

Lol, yes, manipulation all around for at least ESTPs. And how furious they get when you point out to them what they're trying to do (because to their mind, what they are asking is completely logical).

I've rarely in my life been furious about anything, and when prompted by another to consider my actions/motivations, respond with diplomacy. In short, what you wrote above is rubbish, IMO. You want to see furious when they are questioned? Try an ESTJ type-A male. ESTPs are cool headed and smooth.

I think it is an awesome skill. At the same time, I cannot not respect it.

(1) How can you disrespect a skill? It is the inappropriate utilization of a skill that is capacble of being disrespectable; the skill itself is not disrespectable, as interpretation of a skill's utilization is totally dependent on the context of the situation it is being implemented in.

(2) Are you under the assumption that others are concerned whether or not you respect them? Just curious.

That said, I have found that ESTPs can completely misinterpret other people as well...it seems that their forte is influence rather than complete understanding...they are too self-invested to truly be masters at understanding.

The sheer ignorance of your remark is astounding.

Do you think ESTPs are the only MBTI type that can misinterpret other people?

And as far as our (ESTPs') forte as being one of "influence" rather than "understanding," that is a rather shallow thing to say, as it assumes your understanding is correct, and that of others is not.

Do not hate those that have the wherewithall to pursue their own will in real life. There are three types of people in this world:

(1) Those that can
(2) Those that will
(3) Those that can AND will

ESTPs are among the few people that consistently "can and will" get things done when needed, regardless if they are personally vested in the situation or not. ESTPs work WITH and THROUGH others to accomplish objectives, which is why we're so damn handy to have on a work team of any kind.

I think your beef is with selfish, unhealthy people, whom I guarantee you are of all 16 MBTI types, and no just ESTPs.

 

[mcmartinez84]

lots of stuff

+1. Thank you. I <3 my ESTP BFF to death and that post made me want to do bad things to innocent kittens.

 

[Uytuun]

I've rarely in my life been furious about anything, and when prompted by another to consider my actions/motivations, respond with diplomacy. In short, what you wrote above is rubbish, IMO. You want to see furious when they are questioned? Try an ESTJ type-A male. ESTPs are cool headed and smooth.

The kind of diplomacy where you call other people's experiences and opinions rubbish? And that based on your own personal experience as well? I see.

You should do a survey here and see how people feel about linking ESTPs and coolheadedness. IMO, this post doesn't do much to help your case. Neither did your reply to the people criticising INFJ-ESTP relationships.

(1) How can you disrespect a skill? It is the inappropriate utilization of a skill that is capacble of being disrespectable; the skill itself is not disrespectable, as interpretation of a skill's utilization is totally dependent on the context of the situation it is being implemented in.

The skill revolves around manipulation (in the sense of indirectly steering other people). Whether for good or for bad, that is a starting point that remains problematic for me.

(2) Are you under the assumption that others are concerned whether or not you respect them? Just curious.

No. However, I also do not operate under the assumption that I should respect people simply because they feel mistreated when I don't (pretend to). I offered my opinion. You seem to be offended by it.

The sheer ignorance of your remark is astounding.

Why?

I have run into a lot of these issues with ESTPs and have observed others in interaction with them dealing with the same issues. They are valid points for consideration. ESTPs are prone to suffering from the locked-in-self syndrome that can be found in all Ti users. It makes for a certain blindness.

Do you think ESTPs are the only MBTI type that can misinterpret other people?

Obviously no. And neither have I claimed so.

And as far as our (ESTPs') forte as being one of "influence" rather than "understanding," that is a rather shallow thing to say, as it assumes your understanding is correct, and that of others is not.

I don't understand why you would rate "influence" lower than "understanding" considering your claim in quote 2. That's something that's your psyche's responsibility and not mine.

If by that you mean that I assume that my understanding of the functioning of ESTPs is correct, then yes, I am convinced that it has merit. I don't subscribe to the idea that I should elaborate on my own blind spots (which I argue lie in different dimensions from those of the ESTP) simply to make you feel better because I criticised yours. And I do believe that in many cases, the assumptions on which the ESTP mind is based prevent a complete and conscious understanding of the other. As I said, it is the price you pay for having a prominent introverted judging process. I do a better job at assuming other people's assumptions as it were. Which doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or cannot oppose them...

ESTPs do have an excellent intuitive (heh) understanding of how to influence people, which might presuppose a subconscious map of sorts - a variety of understanding as well if you insist.

Do not hate those that have the wherewithall to pursue their own will in real life. There are three types of people in this world:

(1) Those that can
(2) Those that will
(3) Those that can AND will

ESTPs are among the few people that consistently "can and will" get things done when needed, regardless if they are personally vested in the situation or not. ESTPs work WITH and THROUGH others to accomplish objectives, which is why we're so damn handy to have on a work team of any kind.

I think your beef is with selfish, unhealthy people, whom I guarantee you are of all 16 MBTI types, and no just ESTPs.

That's a little transparent. It seems that you are unreasonably attached to your type. I do not hate ESTPs.

I wonder if you are simply offended by my style.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I think ESTP's are greatly misunderstood.

 

[Halla74]

I wonder if you are simply offended by my style.

Or lack thereof, but nonetheless I wish you well.

I think ESTP's are greatly misunderstood.

ISTPs are also greatly misunderstood. Why is it that those (XSTPs) who figure out how the gears of life work are resented by others?

 

[Uytuun]

Or lack thereof, but nonetheless I wish you well.



ISTPs are also greatly misunderstood. Why is it that those (XSTPs) who figure out how the gears of life work are resented by others?

It's always easier to hide behind insults and the idea that others merely fail to understand your awesomeness than it is to look into the mirror.

 

[Halla74]

It's always easier to hide behind insults and the idea that others merely fail to understand your awesomeness than it is to look into the mirror.

The only thing easier to do than that is to make baseless and derogatory assumptions about others from afar. Keep at it, you're doing great, I'm taking notes...

Let's see how much more you've got.

Tell us all about those evil, manipulative ESTPs...

 

[sLiPpY]

Now how did they fit Whoopi Goldberg into a basket on the front of a bicycle?





Wait, that's not Whoopie! It's the Extra Testicle!

"Elliot! Elliot! You're stepping on my testicles!"

 

[jo savage]

Wow. This is an interesting thread. So...anyone want to place bets? I've somehow become emotionally entangled with an ESTP. It seems like we both have a sharp object up against the other's jugular at all times. I can see the manipulation, and what makes it weird is my rational side is watching this and wondering who is going to be burned down to the fucking ground, and my involved emotional side keeps getting taken advantage of. But then I'm also getting hits at him too.
It's all just an entertaining, albeit goddamn draining, spectacle.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Wow. This is an interesting thread. So...anyone want to place bets? I've somehow become emotionally entangled with an ESTP. It seems like we both have a sharp object up against the other's jugular at all times. I can see the manipulation, and what makes it weird is my rational side is watching this and wondering who is going to be burned down to the fucking ground, and my involved emotional side keeps getting taken advantage of. But then I'm also getting hits at him too.
It's all just an entertaining, albeit goddamn draining, spectacle.

Man. That sounds familiar. I once described the ESTP I dated as "a worthy adversary" to my friend. To which she responded, " ...this is someone you like, right?"

Yep.

 

[Sinmara]

Lol, yes, manipulation all around for at least ESTPs. And how furious they get when you point out to them what they're trying to do (because to their mind, what they are asking is completely logical).

The bolded part doesn't quite make sense from the standpoint of someone trying to maneuver another person...when someone doesn't respond in the way you anticipated or wanted, you don't get upset and argue that your request is logical, you either do damage control and try to deflect from your mistake or go with it and try again from a different angle. What you've said doesn't sound right at all.

Now, maybe you've known ESTPs who are not very good at doing this and just got loud when you pointed out their failure and tried to act indignant to save face and shift the blame onto you. I doubt they got upset because they thought what they were asking was completely logical...that sounds more like an ESTJ reaction, in which case you've mistyped them and misunderstood their intentions.

Either that, or you interprited an ESTP behavior as deceptive when they were being honest and got upset at being falsely accused. People tend to not really appreciate being accused of manipulation when they weren't doing it. A big emotional reaction like this is the last thing a person would want to do because it makes you look guilty, so either they're an inexperienced and absolutely horrible liar, or worse for you, they're telling the truth and you just pissed them off.

I'm not arguing that xSTPs are super grand masters and would never make such a mistake, but the claim that they become furious when they're called out because they think what they're asking is logical flies in the face of the basic principles of manipulation. Either the person was not xSTP, or they were being honest, or they were REALLY bad at what they were doing...in which case, they deserve what they get. ;p