Women, "Play Nice" and the Danger Instinct

[Domino]

I want to thank everyone for their participation and input. I'm both pleased and astonished by how many strong-minded ladies we have here, and saddened that you all, world-wide, have seen so many dark times. I hope by sharing we can lighten the collective load and learn how to be safer while not being afraid or driven to cynicism.

I'm really pleased that Ivy mentioned "The Gift of Fear". That was the book title that had eluded my memory. If anyone has read it, please do tell us about your experience with it and how it made you feel.

 

[Anja]

Your welcome, Pink. I was glad to have found you women here discussing this. There was a time when I was actively searching for answers and it's been a while since I've had a conversation of this type.

When I worked for the state I taught a staff development class on women-focussed wellness which was always an interesting challenge. (Heh. Queen of the understatement I am!)

So I like to think I have something to offer.

I was a student librarian, Jae, at my high school in southern MN and later at a college in northern IA. I'd once considered making it a career. Pure heaven - hiding in the stacks and reading. It could have been a disastrous choice!

What you do today would probably bear no faint resemblance to the old stamping books stuff.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you all better and am happy to be well-received!

For anyone who is interested, if you'll forgive me for using this thread by way of introduction, I've been getting to know people at INFP Global Chatter and have an introduction there on the intro thread.

 

[proteanmix]

I've got a little different spin on women and playing nice.

I can identify in some ways but others I can't. As far as my physical safety is concerned, I was raised to stand my ground and fight like a deranged banshee if ever someone threatened to physically attack me. My father and brother taught my sister and I how to fight (dirty if necessary) and my sister is naturally athletic and pals around with guys. I grew up minutes away from very violent areas but my specific neighborhood was comparatively low crime. I was taught to be aware of my surroundings and if anything looked amiss don't ignore my feelings of danger. The only real times I was instructed to defer to people was with church folks, not even a general deference to older people or as a woman.

Actually around my way, if you ever punked out you'd get it 20x worse. I've actually had the opposite problem of wanting to show myself as peaceful and not have it be taken as a sign of weakness. You'd always have to have the last word, last comeback, be harder and sometimes I'd feel like OK, I'm done I don't want to go through this pissing contest but if you showed weakness it would be like open season. I think many people regardless of their sex in my environment feel the need to be tougher than what they actually are and that is just as wearying; to be constantly fighting and never able to take off your armor and rest.

Because of this, I've always felt (foolishly?) immune to certain types of attacks and my vulnerability as a woman because I've always (foolishly?) thought that I can handle myself.

 

[Jae Rae]

I want to thank everyone for their participation and input. I'm both pleased and astonished by how many strong-minded ladies we have here, and saddened that you all, world-wide, have seen so many dark times. I hope by sharing we can lighten the collective load and learn how to be safer while not being afraid or driven to cynicism.

I'm really pleased that Ivy mentioned "The Gift of Fear". That was the book title that had eluded my memory. If anyone has read it, please do tell us about your experience with it and how it made you feel.

I'll request it from the library today.

And thanks for the great thread. I appreciated reading everyone's posts.

 

[cafe]

I haven't had too much trouble, but I was raised to be suspicious. My mom went through a lot of the kinds of things mentioned here so I've always been kind of aware of that stuff.

I did have that one guy at the bus stop invite me into a stairwell with him to get out of the rain. I felt as though my intelligence was being insulted more than anything. But I was still glad when the bus came.

I would definitely like to read that book, though.

 

[Virtual ghost]

There is no way I can say what I will say without sounding creepy but I am doing this because I think that women are overlooking one factor.

Since I am a guy who knows how it is like when women runs away from you screaming and thinking that her life is over I will take my place in the thread.

I have already confessed in another thread what happened so I will not again.
I like to spend time in dark and quiet places alone because it is the best for abstract thinking.

But what strikes me is running speed of women in the time of crisis. I am a person who is a good runner even for a guy. So in the case that I was a maniac there is no way she could have escaped me.

Also if you are against three guys your only hope is to run away. I have seen women running in normal situations and in crisis, and I am sorry to say that this speed will take you nowhere.
So, all of you should at least try to work on that.
(I am sorry if I am creating generalization here)


This is the best advice I can offer in this topic.

 

[Totenkindly]

I will get into this in more depth at a later time. It's one of my favorite topics. But for now, here is a book on this exact issue that IMO we should all read:

Amazon.com: The Gift of Fear: Gavin De Becker: Books

Just as an endorsement, it's one of my favorite books ever.

How'd it make me feel? It made me feel like I could trust my intuition in a crisis situation without having to justify my behavior with some kind of logical rationalization. The mind is aware of much more than we are conscious of, and sometimes we might not understand our intuitions until after the situation is resolved.

I still reread it every so often. He's also a wonderful communicator and knows how to convey his ideas well.

...I had all of my things already consolidated into one manageable bag, and I didn't unlock my car door until I'd put my keys in between my fingers, so they stuck out, in case I had to defend myself ( like I said, we lived in a really unsafe area ), and it also kept me from having to fumble around for them or accidentally drop them.

That's actually what I do too. I'm not paranoid, but I'm prudent and try to minimize my vulnerability. I also always keep my doors locked, as soon as I get in the car, and I'm careful where I walk, etc. I like being with someone if I can.

I've also told myself already, if I'm in a situation that I don't like or I feel harassed by someone, even if there's nothing I can put my finger on as specific justification, I'm allowed to be a bitch and just get out of things. Screw being "nice" and protecting someone else's feelings in that sort of situation.

Have any of you read "Lucky" by Alice Sebold? (The topic matter is harsh, it might be too much... but... just... I don't even know how to describe it. She's a very strong woman.)

 

[INA]

What is troubling is that you are taught to be nice and deferential as a woman, but if you are victimized on account of it, you are blamed for that. Personally, I think it is a good call to distrust and dismiss anyone who tries to teach you to weaken your natural defences or your human reactions. They have something besides your well-being at heart.

 

[proteanmix]

There is no way I can say what I will say without sounding creepy but I am doing this because I think that women are overlooking one factor.

Since I am a guy who knows how it is like when women runs away from you screaming and thinking that her life is over I will take my place in the thread.

I have already confessed in another thread what happened so I will not again.
I like to spend time in dark and quiet places alone because it is the best for abstract thinking.

But what strikes me is running speed of women in the time of crisis. I am a person who is a good runner even for a guy. So in the case that I was a maniac there is no way she could have escaped me.

Also if you are against three guys your only hope is to run away. I have seen women running in normal situations and in crisis, and I am sorry to say that this speed will take you nowhere.
So, all of you should at least try to work on that.
(I am sorry if I am creating generalization here)


This is the best advice I can offer in this topic.

Thank you?

 

[Totenkindly]

Thank you?

I admit, I am not sure how to read any of that either.

(I do know enough though to stay away from rabid sheep!)

 

[Jae Rae]

It is the kind of advice that is well-meant but shouldn't be necessary in a civilized society. But the point is well-taken. Women benefit from model mugging courses and martial arts, not only to defend themselves, but to get an air of empowerment to defend themselves. The first thing you learn is to yell NO!

As pointed out, a woman against three men has little chance. As a college coed I found myself walking down Main Street in Worcester past a group of ne'er-do-wells who decided to have some fun with me. Five or six guys surrounded me, asked me where I was going, etc. It was rather scary, but somehow I knew I would be OK. Eventually they let me move on. Far better to have crossed the street...

I look forward to reading the book.

 

[Anja]

I woke up to the encouragement of strengthening my running skills and have seriously considered investing in a pair of Red Ball Jets. (Remember those tennies which were guaranteed to help you run faster?)

So laffin' out loud here. Thanks for the light-hearted moment in a sobering conversation.

You know, at my age nothing is ever going to enable me to run as fast as a twelve-year old sex-crazed male. And I've heard that the chase is half of the game, so I'm doubtful. . .

 

[Anja]

Sigh.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Sorry girls/ladies I have to explain myself becuse I can't just leave entire thing at this it would be just too ....(insert word)

Thank you?

I admit, I am not sure how to read any of that either.

If I am getting the signals in the right way I have sent mixed massage at least to an certain degree.

My point here is that everybody in this thread have only been on one side and I am probably the only one on this forum which was on the other. And what is sure is that I am the only who is willing to share the experiance and insight of the other side..

What happened to me that night wasn't done by my choice or it was planned. It just happened that she run into me in the place where she did not expect somebody.

EDIT: What I found very interesting in this thread is the insight that women think about who is the maniac so often.
Honestly I was clueless.

 

[LadyJaye]

What is troubling is that you are taught to be nice and deferential as a woman, but if you are victimized on account of it, you are blamed for that. Personally, I think it is a good call to distrust and dismiss anyone who tries to teach you to weaken your natural defences or your human reactions. They have something besides your well-being at heart.

It breaks my heart to say how many of my friends have been attacked and then blamed for it. It's ludicrous.

It is the kind of advice that is well-meant but shouldn't be necessary in a civilized society. But the point is well-taken. Women benefit from model mugging courses and martial arts, not only to defend themselves, but to get an air of empowerment to defend themselves. The first thing you learn is to yell NO!

As pointed out, a woman against three men has little chance. As a college coed I found myself walking down Main Street in Worcester past a group of ne'er-do-wells who decided to have some fun with me. Five or six guys surrounded me, asked me where I was going, etc. It was rather scary, but somehow I knew I would be OK. Eventually they let me move on. Far better to have crossed the street...

I look forward to reading the book.

Scary! I've had a group of guys surround me before, and it was really tense. I'm so glad they didn't do anything to you.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I wrote my last post here late last night and I did not saw that the post in one part says that I am actually willing to scare and chase women late at night. I have repaired the post so now it is what it should be.

I am getting out of this thread before it is too late.

 

[bluebell]

Interesting thread. I really really struggle with trusting my instincts because mine are overly hypervigilant, about things that are usually totally harmless. eg anyone sneezing or coughing used to freak me out because it reminded me (at an unconcious level) of some bad stuff. I know that I overreact to many mundane safe trivial things so it's hard to know when I need to be genuinely vigilant. And something that isn't often acknowledged is that females can be aggressors as well. It's probably much rarer but it does happen.

I'm aware of most of my past, but this thread reminded me of something I'd forgotten. At grad school, I'd been told by a couple of female grad students to avoid being alone with a particular professor at another college because of his inappropriate behaviour. Two of my (male) advisors wanted to me to go visit this profressor by myself and I told them what I'd heard. I can't remember their exact words but it was something dismissive like 'oh, we expect our female students to be able to be able to be strong enough to be able to deal with things like that'. The stupid thing was at that point in my life I was extremely shy and meek - it should have been obvious to everyone who knew me then that I was unlikely to have the skills to have handled it. I didn't end up going, I don't remember why now (it's all a bit hazy now).

 

[Anja]

I've had some time to think on this today and the thought that haunts me about this subject is the relationship between sex and violence.

It's everywhere in our society and certainly blatant in today's social patter. For example the way we casually throw the expression "Eff you" around as a means of expressing ill-will toward someone.

My understanding of the Eff word, ugly sounding as it is with no explanation of meaning involved, is that it is used to describe an act of love. Short of love being involved it is nonetheless descriptive of an act of creation, not destruction. Of human connection, not disharmony.

Thinking about how this has been distorted.

More later.

Comments?

 

[Anja]

Sorry - I needed to tie that in to the OP.

"Play nice" = danger.

 

[Algora J]

This is a very interesting thread.

I always think women are taught to supress their instincts by attempting to be "polite" and to use "linear logic" (ie, "there is no reason to fear that man and you have to give him the benefit of the doubt").

Just for purposes of sharing, I had 3 very distinct incidents in which I became hypervigiliant in regards to men.

1. I went to a private kindergarten art school, and on one day, a man came to give a presentation on fairy tales. I immediately sensed something "creepy" about him, as he would make a point to stare at me or to sit close to me, and I immediately went to one of my teachers (who was probably about 24 years old) and told her I wanted to go home. She couldn't quite understand it, and called my mother to pick me up. I was only about 5 years old then, but looking back, I think he was probably some sort of child molester. According to Bertrand Russell, children are most immediately in touch with their atavistic instincts. I think that young children (and also animals) can immediately tell if a person is dangerous or being insincere.

2. I was 15 and at an outgoing for a camping trip within my church. There was an adult male supervisor there who was visiting from another branch of the church. During the entire weekend, he kept taking numerous photographs of me, while ignoring the other children. I immediately sensed there was something "not quite right" about him and made it a point to be with the other male churchgoers my age during the entire duration of the trip. Anyhow, the boys ended up protecting me, but one of them did end up throwing me into a lake for fun. However, the male supervisor never approached me while the other boys were around, although he tried very hard to approach me around other girls. The gut feeling (Te + Ni) I had about the man was exactly similar to the incident when I was 5.

3. Just recently, I was picking up some items at a shop, and a man was following me around the entire store. He followed me everywhere and I had the initial instinct to run. But since I was surrounded by people in daylight, I convinced myself that I wasn't in any danger. As I was leaving, he followed me to checkout, then outside to where my car was, but stopped just before the outside of the entrance. I think the reason being was that there were many people around, and he couldn't act without being seen.

I think we should trust our instincts. They are quite logical in that we immediately sense something wrong about the entire picture, and even if we do not have all the evidence, there is something there that threatens our well being.

OT, I felt the same way about John Edwards watching him in the Democratic debates. There's just something about that man that feels "wrong" to me. I'm not comparing him to incidents 1-3, but definitely something about him brings about those atavistic instincts within myself in which tells you not to trust that individual.