Exactly. A dress code that requires only men wear ties is just as discriminatory as one that requires only women wear skirts/dresses instead of trousers.
These two comparisons are very much so similar, and are a better comparison than women exposing their chests vs men. I don't see the reason for women being forced to wear skirts or men forced to wear ties or bowties--but I have to wear high heels and skirts regardless of how comfortable I feel in them to events where men are allowed to wear pants, and I feel the same sort of envy.
While the highlighted may be true, the topic here is not women's rights or reception in the workplace overall, but the effects of exposing cleavage at work, or more broadly, certain forms of women's attire. If, as you say, it has no net effect on the respect accorded women at work, does it make any difference, then, how a woman dresses? I don't know where you work, but I have never worked in any setting where men were allowed to bare their chests. We're not talking about string bikinis or even toplessness at the beach here, but about dressing in a professional setting.
And my point is that the topic goes beyond simply, "is it good or bad that they expose their chests at work?" The issue is much deeper than that. It's about women not being cornered into what men think is appropriate attire. As I stated before, businesses lay out what they find appropriate, but usually they do not touch the subject of cleavage because women's body types and styles are very finicky issues. They are so because of women's rights movements and the push for equality in the workplace.
It can just as easily be asked, "If it has no net effect, why stop it?" But it DOES have an effect on women. How they dress does effect them. The picture you posted shows modest, but fashionable attire--it also shows a lot of skin on the arms and legs. I don't understand how that is so much more professional than something that covers nearly everything but has a lower cut on the neck. Women's fashion in the work place is different from men--if men really want it so equal, maybe they ought to start branching out and wearing less and getting away with more and pushing the subject into a full blown revolution. That's what people do when they want change--they make it happen. But men aren't going to do that anytime soon--all in all, they're content with their lot in life, annoyances and all. Women were not so content, and years later the changes are showing.
We are focusing on revealing women's attire because that is the topic of the thread. That does not mean that those of us replying to the OP think about this all the time, or focus on it at the expense of more significant workplace issues.
I wasn't so much thinking about the replies to the OP when making that statement, I meant people as in the general populous. Even the replies, including my own, had some very strong feelings behind it.. so regardless of thinking about it all the time, the thought that is put into it is very strong. People went out of their way to say that EVERY woman showed cleavage to get the attention of men that they came across--a fact I find hard to believe but I cannot testify otherwise for their particular scenario. Many people were very strongly against it--and brought up that things like that were destroying women's rights movements, taking steps in the wrong direction, and that it was generally disruptive.
It is a lot of very strong opinion put into something that, in truth, is really no one's business except the company with it's policies and the women dressing themselves.
First, I had assumed this thread was discussing workplaces in western societies, given the types of attire described. Obviously, customs and expectations in Muslim societies will be much different. Second, I disagree in your assessment of human nature's role in covering up. It is also human nature to want protection from the elements, and simple privacy, which covering up facilitates. Also, some of the greatest female exposure is found in situations where women are not respected at all, but objectified for sex purposes. In any case, modesty and calmness are usually desirable in the workplace. If demonstrating these does not enhance one's respect more, demonstrating their opposite certainly will not.
The question was posed why would women dress in that manner. My answer was simply because we can. We live in a culture where we aren't *forced* to cover ourselves up, and seen as degrading if we don't try at all costs to live completely modest lives. Many women are very grateful for that fortune, and are not going to give it up anytime soon.
There are some situations that, unfortunately, most men are not going to completely acknowledge and understand are simply different for women. Yes, modesty and calmness is admired in some work situations. But certainly not all. A quiet, modest office cubicle working with nice, sweet people all around them is not the only professional institution in which women find themselves working. You really don't see how many people see modest attire, and a quiet demeanor in a woman, and assume they can walk all over them because they assume they lack a backbone and the confidence to retaliate. I've dealt with it on several occasions, and even my modest male friends were not picked on in the same way I was. I'm sorry, but if you cannot accept that there are some situations males simply do not deal with in the professional environment, then there isn't more I need discuss with you. The difference is there, and the equality is not as equal as we'd like it to be. It is leaps and bounds from where it was--but with a long way to go.
No one is complaining and in a huge uproar about a pepsi commercial being on in the office with a girl in a bikini. But a woman with cleavage is somehow a disaster in the workplace? I refuse to believe the matter is that simple. The matter is a deep one, and seated with a lot of bias and strong opinions about women's looks in general, not just cleavage and not just in the workplace.
I did not say it bothered me. I said I was curious as to why women seem to prefer exposing more skin than men in professional or formal situations. Consider the photo below of the Obamas and Bidens from the 2008 Democratic Convention. Politics aside, most would agree that all four of them are tastefully and not inappropriately dressed, yet the women show much more exposed skin than their husbands. This seems to be both generally accepted, and individually preferred by those two women. In fact, sleeveless dresses have become a fashion trademark of Mrs. Obama. If her husband tried to go sleeveless in the same situations, however, I doubt it would be so well received.
My apologies. The tone seemed like one of annoyance, since your post had a "well, men deal with discrimination of clothing too, so why do women get away with so much?" tone to it.
I find all of those attires appropriate. I also find polo shirts, suits without a tie, suits without a jacket, and golf shorts very professional looking and appropriate. I don't create the fashion do's and don'ts in society (probably a good thing), but I do know if men wanted to break out of their fashion box of a measly 4 choices (jeans and t-shirt, polo and slacks, suit, tuxedo) they simply would do so. Women get daring, wear something crazy, and then support is backed until it is a normal thing. Change doesn't come simply because someone says a tie is annoying. You have to really, truly want the change to occur, and push for it.
I don't see men doing that is all. Whereas women obviously put a lot of value into the clothing they wear and how it affects their mentalities in the workplace. The stances are different, and thus socially acceptable attire is different.
Which I am okay with.. but I am not okay with someone telling a woman that a portion of her body is inappropriate and that she cannot wear the same clothing as someone smaller-chested than her just because she was born with a different lot. What is cleavage-revealing for one girl is not at all for another. It's hard to make a dress code without offending someone in a professional environment--and why go through all that painstaking trouble anyways just for a bit of cleavage that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't that big of a deal? The amount of effort that would take, you might as well make a blanket dress code (which many businesses do), or work on issues that actually need addressing.
I tend to say that a lot too.. People are always "Im so inconvenienced by the actions of others!" "Well, why don't you do the same thing?" "No way! I don't want to live like that!"
