Why we always misunderstand one another on the Internet

[Poki]

It's all N vs S. Even if 2 people are Ns, one must have switched to using S or they would understand each other. It can't be T vs F as that's just sensitivity issues.

What I have seen the most misunderstanding is simply due to a difference in knowledge base. Someone who quotes lines alot will be lost on someone who doesn't watch TV. Someone who speaks abstract can be applied to many people, but they all have different ways it applies, but they all agree only to find out it was a misunderstanding and they don't agree on the details.

Also differing personalities. A serious person will take a smart as literally where as someone who is a smart ass may take a serious person as a smart ass.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The only situations where I saw large online misunderstandings is if two or more people are living in different countries that have clearly different culture/environment. In that case there are 2 problems ...


1. The people involved in conversations may not realize the context of what the other person is saying since their life experiences are so different that it takes time for conversation to sync.







2. Language barrier - no matter how hard you try it is impossible to make a perfect translation from language x to language y. Especially since grammar changes the structures of sentence and if text is about complex topic you will surely lose part of massage. It may even sound somewhat racist but I already said on this forum "The English language is sometimes just too simplistic to trully picture my throughts".
English no matter how much you master it is very linear while on the other hand is pretty muddy and unspecific and the best thing is that the person whose first language is English may not even realize how vague they sound to the other person.




Trivial example: Word "Uncle".
I am used that there are specific two words for brother on your mothers and fathers side. Therefore with these two words you instantly know if this person is from mothers or fathers side of family. To me "uncle" is half information.


More serious problem: In English "You" can mean both single and plural and that can lead into muddy communication. In other words you sometimes can't be certain if someone rants against specific person or everybody that posted in their thread since they are all "You".


Complex example: English is much more gender neutral language than I am used to. For example "cooking" and "running" are totally neutral words and you do not have a clear picture who is performing the act. While in Croatian there are the different add-ons on the words if the act is done by male or female. This means that if you say "My friend was running in the morning." you instantly know gender of that friend and it is automatically easier to guess who is that friend (especially since there are two different words for male and female friend). Therefore you can't get in situations that someone types you on a forum after 6 months "I though you were a girl!", what happens on English based forums. In other words: No matter what you will always understand if the relevant person is male or female and that makes things easier and with less awkward questions.




If a person doesn't lie Croatian language is much more transparent and on international forums I am often missing this verbal openess of my first language. If you are INTJ it is much easier when everything is open and without potential dilemmas.

 

[windoverlake]

The only situations where I saw large online misunderstandings is if two or more people are living in different countries that have clearly different culture/environment. In that case there are 2 problems ...


1. The people involved in conversations may not realize the context of what the other person is saying since their life experiences are so different that it takes time for conversation to sync.







2. Language barrier - no matter how hard you try it is impossible to make a perfect translation from language x to language y. Especially since grammar changes the structures of sentence and if text is about complex topic you will surely lose part of massage. It may even sound somewhat racist but I already said on this forum "The English language is sometimes just too simplistic to trully picture my throughts".
English no matter how much you master it is very linear while on the other hand is pretty muddy and unspecific and the best thing is that the person whose first language is English may not even realize how vague they sound to the other person.




Trivial example: Word "Uncle".
I am used that there are specific two words for brother on your mothers and fathers side. Therefore with these two words you instantly know if this person is from mothers or fathers side of family. To me "uncle" is half information.


More serious problem: In English "You" can mean both single and plural and that can lead into muddy communication. In other words you sometimes can't be certain if someone rants against specific person or everybody that posted in their thread since they are all "You".


Complex example: English is much more gender neutral language than I am used to. For example "cooking" and "running" are totally neutral words and you do not have a clear picture who is performing the act. While in Croatian there are the different add-ons on the words if the act is done by male or female. This means that if you say "My friend was running in the morning." you instantly know gender of that friend and it is automatically easier to guess who is that friend (especially since there are two different words for male and female friend). Therefore you can't get in situations that someone types you on a forum after 6 months "I though you were a girl!", what happens on English based forums. In other words: No matter what you will always understand if the relevant person is male or female and that makes things easier and with less awkward questions.




If a person doesn't lie Croatian language is much more transparent and on international forums I am often missing this verbal openess of my first language. If you are INTJ it is much easier when everything is open and without potential dilemmas.

All very true. Sometimes I'll come across a thread where a misunderstanding is taking place, and you can really see how lines are crossed because there's a slight language barrier between a native English speaker and a non-native English speaker who is still fluent. I've also seen in-person disagreements begin to brew between people who speak the same native language, but whose personal languages are so different. Sometimes it's usually an N-S thing, but other times it's even more individual than that.

 

[prplchknz]

Because the other person is often a cunt viewing things as complete when they're missing vital info.but refuses to recognize they might be wrong cuz to them every one is the same as them

 

[Coriolis]

Trivial example: Word "Uncle".
I am used that there are specific two words for brother on your mothers and fathers side. Therefore with these two words you instantly know if this person is from mothers or fathers side of family. To me "uncle" is half information.

It all comes down to what the speakers of the language (collectively) have considered important. I'm told the Eskimos have dozens of words for "snow", each specifying a certain kind or quality of snow. For most of the rest of us, one word will suffice.

More serious problem: In English "You" can mean both single and plural and that can lead into muddy communication. In other words you sometimes can't be certain if someone rants against specific person or everybody that posted in their thread since they are all "You".

"You" ambiguities are not limited to English.

Complex example: English is much more gender neutral language than I am used to. For example "cooking" and "running" are totally neutral words and you do not have a clear picture who is performing the act. While in Croatian there are the different add-ons on the words if the act is done by male or female. This means that if you say "My friend was running in the morning." you instantly know gender of that friend and it is automatically easier to guess who is that friend (especially since there are two different words for male and female friend). Therefore you can't get in situations that someone types you on a forum after 6 months "I though you were a girl!", what happens on English based forums. In other words: No matter what you will always understand if the relevant person is male or female and that makes things easier and with less awkward questions.

Why does all this matter, especially online? Any awkwardness comes much less from anyone's language than from the assumptions some people make based on gender to begin with. Remove the information, and we are forced to see each other on simply a fundamental human level, much like hiring processes in which applicant names are removed to minimize gender, racial, and ethnic bias.

 

[Virtual ghost]

All very true. Sometimes I'll come across a thread where a misunderstanding is taking place, and you can really see how lines are crossed because there's a slight language barrier between a native English speaker and a non-native English speaker who is still fluent.

Just for the sake of context: Your first language is English ?

It all comes down to what the speakers of the language (collectively) have considered important. I'm told the Eskimos have dozens of words for "snow", each specifying a certain kind or quality of snow. For most of the rest of us, one word will suffice.


Why does all this matter, especially online? Any awkwardness comes much less from anyone's language than from the assumptions some people make based on gender to begin with. Remove the information, and we are forced to see each other on simply a fundamental human level, much like hiring processes in which applicant names are removed to minimize gender, racial, and ethnic bias.

The only point that I was trying to show with my post is that your first language defines your thinking pattern on so profound level that you may not even realize this.




Why does it matter ?

Towards my personal opinion this does matter for 2 reasons.


1. I like the fact that you can say same amount of information with less words or larger amount information with the same amount of words. I simply see this as efficient. Basically the whole point of communication is exchange of information. In other words: this way the whole communication is less of a guessing game and the final point is more clear. What makes it easier to understand where you are and how to proceede.



2. On a forum such as this one you can see plenty of people that have the problem of relating to the world. Therefore I would dare to say that my first language has helped me keeping track with reality. The Croatian langauge is pretty biased towards Se philosophy of life and it forces you to see and acknowledge things. This is simply the outcome of the past since here there is no permanent political stability since the collapse of Roman empire. Therefore there was the strong need to develope language that quickly and concisely exchanges information. Especially since large parts of the population were warriors, traders, outlaws/opportunists/rebels, builders that quickly had to build city walls since war is comming ... etc. If we overlook the last 20 years the logic of this place was "Be quick or be dead".


Once I had the professor that had the task to score essays written on English, but the person didn't know Croatian. However since there was a few Croats in the group the professor was somewhat horrified with our thinking pattern. We used English but towards the professor we were all very blunt and lacked academic finesse. Therefore we were losing grades simply because our expression was wrong and it was wrong because we are focused on different elements and goals in communication. Therfore since the problem didn't go away we all had to sit down in the classroom and have the conversation about what is desired from us.


One of the main advantages of knowing more then one language is recognizing your own subtle bias that was built into you by the environment at very young age.


Btw we also recognize a few types of snow.

 

[windoverlake]

Just for the sake of context: Your first language is English ?

Yes, it is.

 

[Coriolis]

Why does it matter ?

Towards my personal opinion this does matter for 2 reasons.


1. I like the fact that you can say same amount of information with less words or larger amount information with the same amount of words. I simply see this as efficient. Basically the whole point of communication is exchange of information. In other words: this way the whole communication is less of a guessing game and the final point is more clear. What makes it easier to understand where you are and how to proceede.



2. On a forum such as this one you can see plenty of people that have the problem of relating to the world. Therefore I would dare to say that my first language has helped me keeping track with reality. The Croatian langauge is pretty biased towards Se philosophy of life and it forces you to see and acknowledge things. This is simply the outcome of the past since here there is no permanent political stability since the collapse of Roman empire. Therefore there was the strong need to develope language that quickly and concisely exchanges information. Especially since large parts of the population were warriors, traders, outlaws/opportunists/rebels, builders that quickly had to build city walls since war is comming ... etc. If we overlook the last 20 years the logic of this place was "Be quick or be dead".


Once I had the professor that had the task to score essays written on English, but the person didn't know Croatian. However since there was a few Croats in the group the professor was somewhat horrified with our thinking pattern. We used English but towards the professor we were all very blunt and lacked academic finesse. Therefore we were losing grades simply because our expression was wrong and it was wrong because we are focused on different elements and goals in communication. Therfore since the problem didn't go away we all had to sit down in the classroom and have the conversation about what is desired from us.


One of the main advantages of knowing more then one language is recognizing your own subtle bias that was built into you by the environment at very young age.

None of this explains why one would find it important for grammatical structure to reflect the speaker's gender, unless you are suggesting that certain cultures place a greater emphasis on knowing this information, perhaps because they have stronger biases associated with it. This may be the case, but I am not a linguistics expert.

 

[Virtual ghost]

None of this explains why one would find it important for grammatical structure to reflect the speaker's gender, unless you are suggesting that certain cultures place a greater emphasis on knowing this information, perhaps because they have stronger biases associated with it. This may be the case, but I am not a linguistics expert.

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Different first language -» different perception of reality.
What in online communication can very easily turn into subtle misunderstanding or thinking that you trully understand what the other person said even if that is not the case.

 

[prplchknz]

i think the percentage is wrong of words vs body language. i bet if we had a conversation on here via series of photos of us using body language to convey our message there'd be even more misunderstanding.

you need both

 

[Coriolis]

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Different first language -» different perception of reality.
What in online communication can very easily turn into subtle misunderstanding or thinking that you trully understand what the other person said even if that is not the case.

Then I am fortunate to be conversing online. I prefer to be judged by the content of my thoughts, not my gender, race, age, beauty, or other factors not discernable here.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I had a prime example on my blog last night. I wrote something intending it to sound hopeful and upbeat and instead someone interpreted it as mocking and disdainful.

It really hurt being misinterpreted so completely.

Lacking body language and tone really makes things a bit harder, especially when emotion is involved.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Then I am fortunate to be conversing online. I prefer to be judged by the content of my thoughts, not my gender, race, age, beauty, or other factors not discernable here.

And now we came back into misunderstanding zone.


Just because language x clearly defines your gender that does not mean that you will be judged because of this. This is exactly the trick: you are used to gender neutrality and any mentioning of gender gets you defensive. You must understand that if you are rised in a way that gender is always visible there is nothing inherently sexist about this, it is just different approach to life. I personally see this simply as a precision of language.


This is like hanging out with 2 friends and then someone says : Hey, the three of you there ..... " and then you say "Who do you call "you"? We are all separate individuals with human right here.".
At certain point defensivness becomes silly.


Just saying.

 

[Coriolis]

And now we came back into misunderstanding zone.


Just because language x clearly defines your gender that does not mean that you will be judged because of this. This is exactly the trick: you are used to gender neutrality and any mentioning of gender gets you defensive. You must understand that if you are rised in a way that gender is always visible there is nothing inherently sexist about this, it is just different approach to life. I personally see this simply as a precision of language.

This is like hanging out with 2 friends and then someone says : Hey, the three of you there ..... " and then you say "Who do you call "you"? We are all separate individuals with human right here.".
At certain point defensivness becomes silly.

Of course having one's gender known does not guarantee one will be judged for it. When one's gender is unknown, however, it is impossible to be judged for it. See the difference? I hope judgment of any kind is not an issue when hanging out with friends. It is in the rest of the world that it not only can be but is an issue.

Studies have been done, for instance among hiring supervisors in which they are given identical resumes, one with a male name and one with a female name. I don't need to tell you which tips the balance. Same with names having specific ethnic associations. Some organizations actually remove names from resumes to reduce this source of bias.

I have no personal cause for worry as I have been fortunate in experiencing very little gender bias of consequence in my life. Still, I would like a dollar for every time someone has said to me: "But you're a woman, so why would you . . . ", or "But I didn't think a girl would like/want/do. . . ", or "As a woman, you probably . . . ". Actually, probably not. It would be nice if people could stop making gender-based assumptions. We're not there yet, though.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Of course having one's gender known does not guarantee one will be judged for it. When one's gender is unknown, however, it is impossible to be judged for it. See the difference? I hope judgment of any kind is not an issue when hanging out with friends. It is in the rest of the world that it not only can be but is an issue.

Studies have been done, for instance among hiring supervisors in which they are given identical resumes, one with a male name and one with a female name. I don't need to tell you which tips the balance. Same with names having specific ethnic associations. Some organizations actually remove names from resumes to reduce this source of bias.

I have no personal cause for worry as I have been fortunate in experiencing very little gender bias of consequence in my life. Still, I would like a dollar for every time someone has said to me: "But you're a woman, so why would you . . . ", or "But I didn't think a girl would like/want/do. . . ", or "As a woman, you probably . . . ". Actually, probably not. It would be nice if people could stop making gender-based assumptions. We're not there yet, though.

Unfortunately not.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Of course having one's gender known does not guarantee one will be judged for it. When one's gender is unknown, however, it is impossible to be judged for it. See the difference? I hope judgment of any kind is not an issue when hanging out with friends. It is in the rest of the world that it not only can be but is an issue.

Studies have been done, for instance among hiring supervisors in which they are given identical resumes, one with a male name and one with a female name. I don't need to tell you which tips the balance. Same with names having specific ethnic associations. Some organizations actually remove names from resumes to reduce this source of bias.

I have no personal cause for worry as I have been fortunate in experiencing very little gender bias of consequence in my life. Still, I would like a dollar for every time someone has said to me: "But you're a woman, so why would you . . . ", or "But I didn't think a girl would like/want/do. . . ", or "As a woman, you probably . . . ". Actually, probably not. It would be nice if people could stop making gender-based assumptions. We're not there yet, though.

Yes but by hidding gender you are indirectly helping to create the atmosphere that there is a difference between man and women. For me it is pointless to hide this because if the conversation will continue your gender will eventually come out, what only creates strong pressure on the moment when the truth will be out in the open. As for "When one's gender is unknown it is impossible to be judged for it" statement: this may be true at face value but you can still be judged for something else. Since you are obviously trying to cover up your gender you automatically seem less trustworthy to me and this opens much larger concern in me than your gender ever would. For me this is a red flag that advises caution and makes me take your words with grain of salt.

However since this is random internet talk and it is obvious that you are from different culture I ignore this red flag since I am certain that you do not have bad intentions. But if this where a serious converation with obvious consequences I would directly ask you what is your gender.


Therefore I dare to say that I do not see the problem in gender biased questions. Just asking what the person wants or prefers is not sexism by definition in my book. I can understand that some women that are futher away form certain female stereotypes can find this frustrating but as long as the questions are honest and not threatening there should be no real problem. I for example have a hard time understanding most women so I just direcly ask what interest me.






However this returns us to one of my earlier posts that people can have a online misunderstanding if they live in very different countries/environments. In other words I think that we do have this factor at play in this conversation as well. I am from a place where far left has devastated traditional values which have never trully recovered from that political era. Here about 98% of the population are either Christians that are mostly not as much religious as in other countries or they are Atheist/Agnostics. The other options basically do not exist in the population.


Also I am from a nation that is 100% white and in our country there is only few thousand people that are not par of the dominant group. These are Roma that mostly live a few separated villages/settlements, but even they have plenty of white blood in them. Plus since we live in a globalized world where are a few foreign diplomats/buissnesman with their families. Therefore when we calculate in minorities we are still something like 99% white country.


To picture you how homogeneous we are I will tell you that I am in my 30s and I have never had a converation with non white person face to face.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes but by hidding gender you are indirectly helping to create the atmosphere that there is a difference between man and women. For me it is pointless to hide this because if the conversation will continue your gender will eventually come out, what only creates strong pressure on the moment when the truth will be out in the open. As for "When one's gender is unknown it is impossible to be judged for it" statement: this may be true at face value but you can still be judged for something else. Since you are obviously trying to cover up your gender you automatically seem less trustworthy to me and this opens much larger concern in me than your gender ever would. For me this is a red flag that advises caution and makes me take your words with grain of salt.

That atmosphere was well-established long before I came on the scene. We will always be judged by others, but some people pass such a firm judgment at the outset based on a relatively unimportant characteristic, that in matters of real importance (e.g. hiring) it can help to set it aside. Sure, the "truth" will come out, but by that time the person has his/her foot in the door, and can make an impression based on the whole person.

For what it's worth, I do not as a rule make an effort to hide my gender. I have not found that necessary. That being said, I don't preface every post by telling people I am female. I someone asks, I will usually ask them why they want to know. This way, when I answer I can forestall any assumptions the other person seems to be making.

Therefore I dare to say that I do not see the problem in gender biased questions. Just asking what the person wants or prefers is not sexism by definition in my book. I can understand that some women that are futher away form certain female stereotypes can find this frustrating but as long as the questions are honest and not threatening there should be no real problem. I for example have a hard time understanding most women so I just direcly ask what interest me.

There is nothing wrong with gender-based questions when they are relevant, e.g. for medical or dating purposes. For general discussion, say of politics, movies, or typology on a site like this, I don't see what the point is, unless the person asking is trying to read something into a members comments beyond what was actually said. This is better not done on any basis.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That atmosphere was well-established long before I came on the scene. We will always be judged by others, but some people pass such a firm judgment at the outset based on a relatively unimportant characteristic, that in matters of real importance (e.g. hiring) it can help to set it aside. Sure, the "truth" will come out, but by that time the person has his/her foot in the door, and can make an impression based on the whole person.

For what it's worth, I do not as a rule make an effort to hide my gender. I have not found that necessary. That being said, I don't preface every post by telling people I am female. I someone asks, I will usually ask them why they want to know. This way, when I answer I can forestall any assumptions the other person seems to be making.


There is nothing wrong with gender-based questions when they are relevant, e.g. for medical or dating purposes. For general discussion, say of politics, movies, or typology on a site like this, I don't see what the point is, unless the person asking is trying to read something into a members comments beyond what was actually said. This is better not done on any basis.

Ok, then we will just have to agree that we live in different places and that is it. Over here if you say that you did "Walking, learning, cooking, ironing, driving etc. you automatically admit your gender since language structure does not allow you to hide it. All actions have male and female version of the word for that action and that makes hiding impossible without lying. Therefore to a person that grew up in such environment all this fogginess is frustrating.

 

[Coriolis]

Ok, then we will just have to agree that we live in different places and that is it. Over here if you say that you did "Walking, learning, cooking, ironing, driving etc. you automatically admit your gender since language structure does not allow you to hide it. All actions have male and female version of the word for that action and that makes hiding impossible without lying. Therefore to a person that grew up in such environment all this fogginess is frustrating.

So how does one write about a person of one gender masquerading as another, say in describing the actions of the character Fidelio?

 

[Virtual ghost]

So how does one write about a person of one gender masquerading as another, say in describing the actions of the character Fidelio?

You mean Fidelio from opera writen by Beethoven ?

I do not know the details of the plot but if a character is pretneding to be of opposite gender then the person that is writting the script has to decide if it important that the audience knows this from the start or it is better that this comes out as a surprise. As I said the only way to cover your gender in my first language is to lie ... however there are no laws of physics that make lying impossible.


To tell you the truth sometimes it seems to me that exacly since our language is so open we have all become good liers. Since in order to cover up things we must deliberately distort the truth. (but this is also the outcome of violent history as well)