[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[Virtual ghost]

Because understanding someone and where they come from emotionally, doesn't mean that you agree, that you see eye to eye on them with this. Sometimes you're also torn between your own inner values and emotions they invoke and understanding the person who's violating them. And sometimes we understand that you're feeling something that motivates you to do something...but we're unsure as to the reason why and the intensity of it and want to verify if we do get what you're saying/feeling. Which results in questions from our side, or 'guesses' followed by our own thoughts on the matter, which can then result in defensiveness and miscommunication unfortunately aka a scene.




Sigh. I'm merely using it to give you a frame of reference, so you can relate. If you wanna point a finger, that's fine, but the fact is that all people are guilty of this in some way or another, even you. I was hoping that if you recognized it in yourself, you'd understand why it happens in NFs as well.



I admit that this is something I often say/write without thinking about it because for me the reason to do something is because I get some advantage and pleasure out of it. Now, this is true for many NTs as well, but from what I've been told it's not always that intense or important. It's also one of those things that constantly intrigues me about NTs, as it's hard to describe their 'drive' to do something sometimes. Maybe satisfaction is a better word? Or maybe sense of accomplishment? And yes, I do get the same 'I-don't-care' answer sometimes from my SO. If I push him to choose, he'll take the most logical option. Note though, that when i get this 'apathy' reading from him, I ask. And yes, it used to drive me up the wall that he could have no opinion/show no emotions whatsoever when faced with a choice. It was also very educational and intriguing. It's something I find very perculiar as I don't function that way, so it took me some time to grasp it. I always thought I was missing something, not paying attention enough etc. However, he does also *enjoy* things and those clues are very clear.

I will reply and if you want you can reply.


1. Why you are thorn apart in this case. Your values are what they are and I dont see the point/reason in being so sensitive about them.


2. I now why you did that and what I said before I said exactly because of that. What means that if NT can have a flaw in logic/scientific conceptes of which they are not aware.
Then it would be reasonable to presume that NF hava problems in in understanding people of which they are not aware.

3. This is a good example of what I have said right now. Since you are projecting a large amout of feelings on the NT and you relate closely to him/her. But you are misunderstanding some processes.
The reason why I am saying this is because I think you have a problem vizualizing them. But this also is realted to how expressed NT is.

I am like your so but this trait is more expressed in me then in him.
That is all.

 

[Amargith]

1) I'm torn at that point because although my values tell me that the person in question is wrong in their actions, I can empathise/understand their motivation. And sometimes it's a grey zone. Do I really have the right to press my values through? Doesn't the person have a right to experience those emotions and deal with them in his own way, even if I disagree with his methods, etc. You always have to balance these things out and see what's right for each situation. In order to make that decision, it is important to double check if you understood the other person right, and have all the data. Hence the questions I tend to ask at that point.

2) My point is that we're just human, much like NTs. We're bound to screw up sometimes and not fully grasp the situation though we will certainly try. I dunno about the rest, but I'm always open to the idea that I might be wrong. And even if you give me that feedback, that you think I'm wrong, I won't always be convinced. At that point, time will tell. But that doesn't mean I didn't hear your feedback.

3)I'm not projecting. At least not imo. When he enjoys something, I can tell. Even if I, in the same situation, don't find it amusing (example: certain cult movies). However, when he shows a certain apathy, I start Ne-ing potential states of minds coz I can't get a read besides apathy, and that's where I admit, I do project. I'm trying to intuit what I could possibly be missing and why. Sometimes I miss something coz he expresses it less pronounced than I would, coz he considers his own state of being irrelevant at the time, or simply..because there's nothing there. It's an elimination process. Which one is it? With the first two, I'm just not picking up the clues, and only once I've made sure I didn't miss anything, will I assume the third option. Of course, over the years I've learned which situations are likely to trigger which states of being in him. But I don't know this for the general NTJ population. Including you. And then indeed, as you say, there's always the fact that sometimes you just don't conceive the idea that one tiny little detail in the way they perceive the world could be so different and could affect everything so much. It's important to keep in mind who they are at all times when you interpret like this. Buthere too the data can be incomplete, the interpretation of the data could've gone wrong etc etc in order to get to the right conclusion. Hence, once more, the questions when not sure.

I'd like to add that this is the first time ever that I've actually had to analyze what it is that I...welll, do naturally. So it's quite possible I'm skipping over things or mixing stuff together, things that I find so..natural that it doesn't occur to me that it doesn't work that way in others, so bear with me.

 

[BlueScreen]

Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

It´s our job.

 

[Asterion]

It´s our job.

Sounds like a rather pointless job...

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ But we love it ... who else will do it?

 

[BlueScreen]

Psychoanalysis FTW!

 

[PeaceBaby]

I am going to make a new polarizing thread - NT's and the NF's that misunderstand them.

It's more interesting from that perspective.

 

[Virtual ghost]

It´s our job.

Well just becuse it is your job that does not mean that you have 100%
efficiency by default.

1) I'm torn at that point because although my values tell me that the person in question is wrong in their actions, I can empathise/understand their motivation. And sometimes it's a grey zone. Do I really have the right to press my values through? Doesn't the person have a right to experience those emotions and deal with them in his own way, even if I disagree with his methods, etc. You always have to balance these things out and see what's right for each situation. In order to make that decision, it is important to double check if you understood the other person right, and have all the data. Hence the questions I tend to ask at that point.

2) My point is that we're just human, much like NTs. We're bound to screw up sometimes and not fully grasp the situation though we will certainly try. I dunno about the rest, but I'm always open to the idea that I might be wrong. And even if you give me that feedback, that you think I'm wrong, I won't always be convinced. At that point, time will tell. But that doesn't mean I didn't hear your feedback.

3)I'm not projecting. At least not imo. When he enjoys something, I can tell. Even if I, in the same situation, don't find it amusing (example: certain cult movies). However, when he shows a certain apathy, I start Ne-ing potential states of minds coz I can't get a read besides apathy, and that's where I admit, I do project. I'm trying to intuit what I could possibly be missing and why. Sometimes I miss something coz he expresses it less pronounced than I would, coz he considers his own state of being irrelevant at the time, or simply..because there's nothing there. It's an elimination process. Which one is it? With the first two, I'm just not picking up the clues, and only once I've made sure I didn't miss anything, will I assume the third option. Of course, over the years I've learned which situations are likely to trigger which states of being in him. But I don't know this for the general NTJ population. Including you. And then indeed, as you say, there's always the fact that sometimes you just don't conceive the idea that one tiny little detail in the way they perceive the world could be so different and could affect everything so much. It's important to keep in mind who they are at all times when you interpret like this. Buthere too the data can be incomplete, the interpretation of the data could've gone wrong etc etc in order to get to the right conclusion. Hence, once more, the questions when not sure.

I'd like to add that this is the first time ever that I've actually had to analyze what it is that I...welll, do naturally. So it's quite possible I'm skipping over things or mixing stuff together, things that I find so..natural that it doesn't occur to me that it doesn't work that way in others, so bear with me.

Well the lass part of your post indicates that you are probably too over confidant in your methods.
I am notsaing this bacause I want to undermine your self-confidence but I simply can't overlook that "the first time ever" in your post.

I am not saing that you can get a lot of it right but you can't understand somethings if you base some analysis on "what would I do"
Especially snce you are a very strong F. Which is because you can't picture some things and the same works for me when it comes to you.

The main reason why many people think I am depressed is because they base their opinions on personal experiance and it looks to me that EF are first to make this conclussion. However I will admit that send vibes that can look like depression.

 

[Amargith]

Hardly. I've said repeatedly that I never assume I'm right. I check. And double check. Besides, have you really taken the time yourself to completely analyze how you think and why you draw conclusions the way you do, what exactly influences you precisely when you make a decision? It comes so natural to you that you just *do* it. I doubt you fully can explain the process and every factor that comes into it. And I think that analyzing something like the process of empathy is probably even harder than to figure out how someone logically deducts and what he uses in those deductions (his fears, his dreams, his hopes, his intellectual capacity, his past, etc). I use the methods that work for me, that experience has taught me can get me the results I need. I never claimed they were perfect however.

And although I have given empathy and how it works a lot of thought before, there are simply things that you don't think of, again, coz they are so..basic and so natural to you, and that you discover only later on because others suddenly point them out and go...euh that's not how it works for me. It's only then that you realize that those are probably part of the equation as well.

But we're going round and round once more. You're convinced others cannot understand you, and that their methods to do so are inadequate to the task, nor do you seem to want them to try apparently. I'll gladly respect that. So I see no further reason for me to continue this debate

 

[Virtual ghost]

Hardly. I've said repeatedly that I never assume I'm right. I check. And double check. Besides, have you really taken the time yourself to completely analyze how you think and why you draw conclusions the way you do, what exactly influences you precisely when you make a decision? It comes so natural to you that you just *do* it. I doubt you fully can explain the process and every factor that comes into it. And I think that analyzing something like the process of empathy is probably even harder than to figure out how someone logically deducts and what he uses in those deductions (his fears, his dreams, his hopes, his intellectual capacity, his past, etc). I use the methods that work for me, that experience has taught me can get me the results I need. I never claimed they were perfect however.

And although I have given empathy and how it works a lot of thought before, there are simply things that you don't think of, again, coz they are so..basic and so natural to you, and that you discover only later on because others suddenly point them out and go...euh that's not how it works for me. It's only then that you realize that those are probably part of the equation as well.

But we're going round and round once more. You're convinced others cannot understand you, and that their methods to do so are inadequate to the task, nor do you seem to want them to try apparently. I'll gladly respect that. So I see no further reason for me to continue this debate

Trust me I am very well aware of that. Which is because of the reason I have spend years alone. So I have analysed myself alot.
The main reason why I did is because for years I was tring to figure out why am so different form poeple around me. (and I had years to do it)

No I am not convinced that other do not understand me. If that is where the case this conversation owuld be completly impossible.
The only thing I am claiming is that you don't understand some parts of me.
Feel free to read some of my posts in the therad if you don't believe me.

 

[Amargith]

We never claimed to fully understand you though. A lot of us just aspire to do so. So this debate is pointless.

 

[Virtual ghost]

We never claimed to fully understand you though. A lot of us just aspire to do so. So this debate is pointless.

Then it is pointless.
The only thing i was/am saying is that I have a lot of misscommunication with F in genaral. That is all.

 

[Amargith]

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[jenocyde]

are we done now???

Rationals

Play the game of "Robot" when they fear a loss of their ability to
continue to be competent, achieving, and resolved. Variants of the
Robot game include:

-- That's Illogical: keep others on defensive by asking lots of
questions, and once others try to defend or explain themselves, then
accuse them of being Illogical.

-- Super-Intellectual: behave as very intellectual and devoid of
emotion. Appear cold, stiff, distant and impersonal to others. They
intellectualize everything -- even emotions.

-- Nitpick: they become preoccupied with minute details, completely
disregarding the big picture. Rarely satisfied, perfectionistic. The
book makes the example of the graduate student who never finishes her
dissertation.

-- Superstition: go to extreme to avoid something -- like germs. May
also engage in repetitive rituals like cleaning, counting or chanting
or hand-washing.

-- Blanking Out: experience moments when they can't think of familiar
words, names or numbers; most likely to happen when performing as in
taking a test.

-- Haunted: cannot make unpleasant thoughts go away, such as a song
playing in their head, or become obsessed about loved ones.

Idealist

Play the game of Masquerade when they feel they have not been or
cannot continue to be authentic, benevolent, and empathetic. Variants
include:

-- Mind Reader: claim that they know what others are really thinking,
feeling and/or wanting. Project their own thoughts/desires on to
others, often attributing negative motives, ie., that others are out
to get them. May even contend that others are reading their minds.
Take everything as personal when it has nothing to do with them.

-- Martyr: sacrifice themselves for a higher cause or principle, or
for the needs and wants of another. May voluntarily endure suffering
or hardship to impress others of their goodness and purity.

-- Grasshopper: keep hopping from one topic to another, to keep the
conversation away from sensitive issues. Avoid talking about what
really bothers them by pretending to be bothered by something else.

-- Statue: Lose any degree of their motor and/or sensory functioning
and may experience partial or full paralysis, blindness, and or
deafness. This cannot be traced to any organic cause.

-- Forgetful: completely forget whatever is unpleasant from their
past
or present -- develop amnesia of painful moments. Can also forget
their identity and even take on a new one.

-- Twitch: Demonstrate an unusal increase in motor activity that
cannot be traced to an organic cause. May exhibit tics or spasms,
verbal outburts, outpouring of repressed negative thoughts and
feelings. Once started, cannot stop.



from "Survival Games Personalities Play," by Eve Delunas, thanks to a link from Heart.
Need your advice...stay or not - Counselor's thoughts - alt.support.marriage | Google Groups

 

[Amargith]

That's interesting Jeno, where'd you get that?

 

[jenocyde]

The book title (and link with excerpt) are at the end of the post.

 

[Amargith]

sensotard moment, tnx

 

[jenocyde]

hahaha, no worries. as I was typing your reply, I was desperately looking at my history folder to see what the link for it is, not realizing that I had already posted it.

 

[Littlelostnf]

hahaha, no worries. as I was typing your reply, I was desperately looking at my history folder to see what the link for it is, not realizing that I had already posted it.

It is a really good book. I got alot out of working on the case files in the back of the book. Worth the read.

 

[PeaceBaby]

But we CAN read minds ya know ...

I think the trouble occurs when an NF can't really figure out what the issue is when one is sensed and therefore tries to extrapolate or speculate based on their own filters, their own experiences. That's the error.

That being said, I have learned to trust intuition because it is folly to ignore messages received in the first place. I don't want to post the many examples I have of such occasions, so you'll have to take my word on that.

Amargith, you have really held in here to try to explain intuition & empathy and for that I send you

AS-one, you can't intellectualize everything, so it is folly to try to dissect this further. But I do believe you are trying to understand, and that is admirable.

So ya, let's hope this thread drifts off, not to be resurrected again.