[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

[Stigmata]

Blacks don't have friends. They have bros and sisters if i'm not mistaken. I've watched the wire.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

After this, some people have their own values, prejudice and jump-to-conclusions problems which leads to dislike of said INTJ

I suppose I should be more open-minded about Holocaust denial, for instance.

 

[Amargith]

I suppose I should be more open-minded about Holocaust denial, for instance.

Depends. Sometimes this kind of stuff is a hidden Ni-joke, sometimes its curiosity about your reactions and sometimes it's just to get your goat. Rarely are they serious about this stuff though, imd. The only way to tell which one it is, is to keep your calm and find out what kind of person they are. The context will tell you their sense of humor and intentions.

 

[greenfairy]

Depends. Sometimes this kind of stuff is a hidden Ni-joke, sometimes its curiosity about your reactions and sometimes it's just to get your goat. Rarely are they serious about this stuff though, imd. The only way to tell which one it is, is to keep your calm and find out what kind of person they are. The context will tell you their sense of humor and intentions.

I am terrible at knowing things through context. Is there more I can go on?

Good advice though, I appreciate it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Depends. Sometimes this kind of stuff is a hidden Ni-joke, sometimes its curiosity about your reactions and sometimes it's just to get your goat. Rarely are they serious about this stuff though, imd. The only way to tell which one it is, is to keep your calm and find out what kind of person they are. The context will tell you their sense of humor and intentions.

It's hard for me to tell, because they say or do things that contradict that... but i can never know if that's just because people's beliefs don't always line up logically and make coherent sense.

 

[greenfairy]

Live with one, have worked with two, have dated three, and have one as a sibling. I know my way around the INTJ circuit, including the knee-jerk Fi reaction on display here anytime you try telling them that one of their systemic inabilities is (gasp!) anything less than just another sign of their superiority and awesomeness in every tangible and intangible field of everything. Maybe INTJs can squeak out a few practical tasks when they absolutely have to, but nowhere near as good as SPs...and in my experience dealing with them, they much prefer to delegate such tasks as much as possible. The bulk of the 'work' they do involves endless research into a project, and finding people to help them with it. Attempting to dive in themselves and complete something in a timely fashion typically results in unexpected problems along the way, which infuriates them, and more often than not causes them to give up on the task completely (until they can find someone to do it for them), or just get it to a half-ass 'workable' level of completion. INTJs have remarkable patience in areas of no resistance, but in the presence of a sabotaging reality they just can't deal with it, and shut down-- forever avoiding such tasks in the future, which stunts their ability to problem solve mechanical reality.

I think you've been surrounded by underdeveloped INTJ's, or just are focusing on the negative. They can be this way when they are in a less functional stage, but as they mature and learn to use all their functions well they come into the positive aspects of their type. And it's possible some of them are mistyped, but I think the bolded shows inferior Se. A high number of obstacles which haven't been planned for and "sabotaging reality" cause Ni dominants to be anxious and stressed. How we respond will depend on the development level.

 

[Amargith]

I am terrible at knowing things through context. Is there more I can go on?

Good advice though, I appreciate it.

I think its a TeFi vs FeTi thing

I have the same difficulty in gauging this stuff with NTPs for instance, especially with Fe-related humor coz I'm never quite sure how...much they adhere to social etiquette and therefore, what is up for grabs humor-wise and what is considered a no-no, whereas to FJs it seems often self-evident.

I guess for me, in this particular example, it is clear that an INTJ, unless incredibly immature and/or deluded, is not going to deny the Holocaust. That would be preposterous to Te. It's a well documented fact and no self-respecting INTJ would deny that in any serious fashion, unless he is capable and willing to back it up. Therefore, to utter such a thing to someone that does not know them very well, is proof of ulterior motive. Since INTJs rarely care for public opinion nor respect those that misinterpret who they are without first attempting to understand their pov (pesky tertiary Fi), they have no qualms trying to sell you such drivel and consider you the moron if you buy it hook, line and sinker.

Did I mention the condescension issue?

 

[anticlimatic]

I think you've been surrounded by underdeveloped INTJ's, or just are focusing on the negative.

Just focusing on the negative, as per the title of the thread's request.

 

[greenfairy]

I think its a TeFi vs FeTi thing

I have the same difficulty in gauging this stuff with NTPs for instance, especially with Fe-related humor coz I'm never quite sure how...much they adhere to social etiquette and therefore, what is up for grabs humor-wise and what is considered a no-no, whereas to FJs it seems often self-evident.

I guess for me, in this particular example, it is clear that an INTJ, unless incredibly immature and/or deluded, is not going to deny the Holocaust. That would be preposterous to Te. It's a well documented fact and no self-respecting INTJ would deny that in any serious fashion, unless he is capable and willing to back it up. Therefore, to utter such a thing to someone that does not know them very well, is proof of ulterior motive. Since INTJs rarely care for public opinion nor respect those that misinterpret who they are without first attempting to understand their pov (pesky tertiary Fi), they have no qualms trying to sell you such drivel and consider you the moron if you buy it hook, line and sinker.

Did I mention the condescension issue?

Thanks, good points. I'll try using my intuition to figure it out. The situation you just described though I think could have still led me astray with the INTJ I was with though; I consistently thought of him as more rational and less extreme and paranoid than he actually was. Maybe I was ignoring something my intuition was telling me, or not using it in the right way. Of course my present assessment of him could be off too- I really find him hard to read. Maybe the INTJ's I encounter in the future will be less problematic...

 

[Amargith]

Thanks, good points. I'll try using my intuition to figure it out. The situation you just described though I think could have still led me astray with the INTJ I was with though; I consistently thought of him as more rational and less extreme and paranoid than he actually was. Maybe I was ignoring something my intuition was telling me, or not using it in the right way. Of course my present assessment of him could be off too- I really find him hard to read. Maybe the INTJ's I encounter in the future will be less problematic...

Welp, I use Fi for that. Its one of the reasons I'll reserve judgement till I've seen most of what the person is about, till ive seen him in several situations, seen several responses etc, so I can figure out what his values are, whats important to him and what he is likely to be able to laugh at and what the pain points are. And that becomes like my baseline for all my interactions with them, giving me a gauge to see what they are likely to joke about.

I know that with NTPs, if I get a chance to do an elaborate personality map like detailed above, I'm way more capable of anticipating their jokes, identifying them as such and even join in. If I have nothing on record yet (si?) on them, it is a *lot* harder.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I think there's a bad generalization out there that only Ni-doms can be uber-mystical people.

I myself used to fall for that trap, and typed as INTJ in large part because of that, or at least as ISTP in a Ti-Ni loop.

But then again, on the whole, using functions to supposedly justify a typing doesn't seem quite as effective as going by actual personality traits.

If you have the natural tendencies of a certain type, you should also have the same functions in my opinion, despite what others choose (or choose not) to see.

 

[Amargith]

It's hard for me to tell, because they say or do things that contradict that... but i can never know if that's just because people's beliefs don't always line up logically and make coherent sense.

I get that. As I said, I have the same issue with your breed

If at all possible, and you know that they are INTJ, try to think with Te. Is it logical for someone who values external facts and systems to state such a thing? And if not, then what possibly could motivate them to say such a thing? Is it your relationship with them, is it that they are bored, is it that you peeved them in some way, what?

 

[Nicodemus]

Did I mention the condescension issue?

It seems respecting choice is often misread as being condescending. If someone has decided they want to eat shit, I let them. The alternative, which is telling them to stop eating shit (if they want to associate with me), seems far more condescending to me as it invalidates their choice. Also, I see eating shit as a symptom of an underlying character flaw. So, whether they stop eating it or not, they are unlikely to be the kind of person I would want to associate with anyway. One might call that condescension, but then having a distaste for shit must also be condescension - and who would want to argue that?

 

[RaptorWizard]

As [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] said, you might be wise to doubt your intuition, but not ours. Moreover, I at least never trust it without question. If I don't have the means to answer those questions, though, and it is an area where my intuition has been right on in the past, I will trust it when a decision needs to be made. This is Ni and Te working together, with obvious influences of Fi and Se as well (considering available facts, and understanding the need/value of acting to support a goal).

Please, the last thing I need to be doing is bowing down before those who have bigger brains than my own, simply because "I'm wrong and they're right".

If you really think that it's wise for me to not question those higher up in the social-intellectual heirarchy, then you're just as foolish in certain ways as you may be wise and perceptive in other ones.

Of course, you still will question yourself, and probably do a better job with it than at least 90% of people or so, but that doesn't mean you should have all confidence in certain things just because the evidence and your reasoning all integrated together supposedly make it a certainty.

Combine all this, and you have INTJs in a nutshell.

Although I don't know much about Russell, it's worth noting that I've seen a few experts type him as an ENTP rather than an INTJ. So perhaps then it's INTJs and ENTPs in a nutshell, or it it all NTs, or is it just all intelligent people of any type in general? My best guess is that it's the last option I previously mentioned.

 

[greenfairy]

Welp, I use Fi for that. Its one of the reasons I'll reserve judgement till I've seen most of what the person is about, till ive seen him in several situations, seen several responses etc, so I can figure out what his values are, whats important to him and what he is likely to be able to laugh at and what the pain points are. And that becomes like my baseline for all my interactions with them, giving me a gauge to see what they are likely to joke about.

I know that with NTPs, if I get a chance to do an elaborate personality map like detailed above, I'm way more capable of anticipating their jokes, identifying them as such and even join in. If I have nothing on record yet (si?) on them, it is a *lot* harder.

I get that. As I said, I have the same issue with your breed

If at all possible, and you know that they are INTJ, try to think with Te. Is it logical for someone who values external facts and systems to state such a thing? And if not, then what possibly could motivate them to say such a thing? Is it your relationship with them, is it that they are bored, is it that you peeved them in some way, what?

Well, I hung around him for 8.5 months , and he became more and more inscrutable to me, even as aspects of him became more clear. He was also kind of a dishonest person in some ways, so that I'm sure was part of it. And he was a high functioning schizophrenic. I'd probably have an easier time with a normal INTJ. I'll keep in mind the Te and Fi bits. I also have a hard time telling how serious people are in general. I can never really tell with the ISFP, except that I've learned that they say outrageous things all the time just for fun, and to assume that they don't really mean anything they say.

 

[Amargith]

It seems respecting choice is often misread as being condescending. If someone has decided they want to eat shit, I let them. The alternative, which is telling them to stop eating shit (if they want to associate with me), seems far more condescending to me as it invalidates their choice. Also, I see eating shit as a symptom of an underlying character flaw. So, whether they stop eating it or not, they are unlikely to be the kind of person I would want to associate with anyway. One might call that condescension, but then having a distaste for shit must also be condescension - and who would want to argue that?

Im glad you added your interpretation from your side.

While your perspective is certainly a welcome addition to further unravel this common misunderstanding, my point stands.

Condescension, the perception of condescension and the experience of said presumed condescension are still often a communication issue when interacting with INTJs. Whether the condescension is in fact there or not. Which will then likely affect the INTJs likability.

 

[Nicodemus]

Condescension, the perception of condescension and the experience of said presumed condescension are still often an communication issue when interacting with INTJs. Whether the condescension is in fact there or not.

Certainly true.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I get that. As I said, I have the same issue with your breed

Now I'm intersted, actually. What have you noticed? Is it that we're not as logical as we claim we are?

I don't think I'm a logical person all the time. Sometimes my emotions are really powerful, even uncontrollable. I actually started a thread about that. Actually, I'm like a puppy or a five year old or something inside, it seems.

 

[Amargith]

Now I'm intersted, actually. What have you noticed? Is it that we're not as logical as we claim we are?

I don't think I'm a logical person all the time. Sometimes my emotions are really powerful, even uncontrollable. I actually started a thread about that. Actually, I'm like a puppy or a five year old or something inside, it seems.

You are. And while Im capable of recognizing that, I also find that I lack the knowledge or natural inclinations or methods needed to 'handle' the way you prefer your emotions handled, which makes it hard to 'joke' with you guys

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I also have a hard time telling how serious people are in general.

I use a lot of sarcasm on here.... do you pick up on that or not, or are you just constantly confused as to how much of a jackass as I am? In person it's probably more obvious.