The problem for me [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] is that you have presented a mess of an op with very mixed messages. Which, maybe more subtly than some will get, is pretty heavily biased towards the meat industry in general.
"I see a lot of people very quick to try to convince me to go vegetarian or vegan and the environmental or health benefits.. and.. in some ways, I'd probably be willing--but at the end of the day, everything for grocery shopping for me comes down to price. To a lesser extent, the health of the food, the ease of cooking it and how much I'll actually eat it. And at the end of the day, a package of hot dogs from cruel awful facilities that don't give a shit about their beef is 12 cents a dog for me, while vegan hot dogs come in packs of like 5 or 7 (what?!) for $4-6. For someone like me who doesn't feel guilt about eating animals, it just doesn't ever seem practical to do.. Especially with nutritionists torn about whether meat is bad for you or not"
For the record, my "what?!" comment was the number itself, since buns come in an 8 count in the US and it always leaves a staggered number of buns or dogs. I'm not trying to say that hot dogs in particular are 'good' for you, I don't consider them a healthy dinner by any means, but I fail to see where I say price point is what matters to me and that, generally speaking, you'll find nutritionists that say meat in general is alright (heavily favoring portioned pieces of lean cut meats) and others who will support vegetarian and vegan diets is all attacking vegans. None of that is attacking vegans. I could definitely make the thoughts flow better, but I was writing this while on my lunch break which I don't get much time in... though I don't think the OP is an entire mess anyways.. perhaps lacking flow without proof reading, but still I think my questions are pretty valid to ask.
The foods you talk about are not the meat nutritionalists are talking about. There is no-one debating that that 'processed' meats have any goodness at all. I'm pretty sure it's a no brainer that they are bad food.
I'm only talking about hot dogs and burgers because these are the most common vegan counterparts I see and the prices that are easiest to look up, so I'm more using them as a frame of reference than as the ONLY things available.. I tend to find the other specialties like vegan chicken and fish to be even pricier. The ONLY reason I mention nutritionists is, like I stated in the OP, you'll find those who support and turn away meat, and I'm not down for talking about nutritional content in this thread because I think it's distracting and detracting from the conversation I want to have here. There is easily a whole other thread that can be done on nutrition and meat and fake meat and all of that, and it is a distracting element.
The op's premise is that you are discussing foods of equal nutrition... specialist counterparts would suggest specialist alternatives yet you use the crap for meat hotdogs as an alternative suggestion.
No. Absolutely not. The OP's premise is, time and time again, "Why doesn't the vegan meat industry adjust its price points and marketing into putting a dent into the meat industry?"
Again, from the OP:
"I don't want the discussion to turn to this [the nutritional] side of things"
The only time I talk about nutrition is in the OP, yet it is always the first thing vegans bring up. Even my favorite-to-watch-on-you-tube lady, when discussing 'affording raw vegan diets' the first mention she makes is that you cannot put a price on health, as if money and health are constantly linked together.
How to Afford Eating FullyRaw - YouTube -- the first caveat posed to her knowledge is "how much are you willing to invest in your health?" It is a concept I see a lot... And I can tell you as someone who eats these not-good-for-you-foods is, no one is thinking about their health when they eat a hot dog. It isn't the reason people eat hot dogs. Again, my ONLY reason for mentioning this nutritional aspect is that vegans place a heavy emphasis on it, and to make a dent in the meat industry the focus must shift away from this because the reality is meat-eaters are not always so heavily focused on this. Particularly those buying hot dogs, hamburgers, and pre-made meat dinners and such. There are plenty of people who only eat grass-fed-organic-this-and-that, but these are not the majority of Americans.
The problem is that you are using specific circumstances to label a whole market and incorrectly. If you want to compare crap for meat with crap for vegan alternatives we can find some. But the premise was 'speciality' So the question remains... what do you actually want to compare here?
... To compare why well-engineered Vegan foods who tend to have an activism component to the movement don't take a great idea and make it non-profit for the purposes of putting a dent into the meat industry. I think I've mentioned several times I think fake-meats are a really good idea, and that I've used them on a vegetarian level and continue to do so and this is what sparked the thread in the first place. No one is here to attack any vegans, or their lifestyle at all. In other threads I've been very vocal about the issues I take up with veganism in other threads, but this thread is not here for that at all and is only discussing a good idea like faux meats and cheeses and asking why not try to push it to be more mainstream. I just want to discuss the price points and what keeps them high, while trying to leave out all the red herring arguments that many vegans are quick to talk about like the health of the food.. no one buying hot dogs is thinking about their health, and some vegans even take an issue with faux meats themselves as being bad habits and bad for you.. So, I'd rather leave nutrition out of this and talk about prices and what drives them.
As you've mentioned many times, the UK and US seem to have vastly different price points, so while it may seem like I am trying to label a whole industry as expensive when it seems not not be there, the information I am using are the grocery store price points here in the US.
At this point, the conversation has already devolved into the distractors I never wanted in here to begin with, and is full of negativity. Brainstorming is not really happening, and the really great ideas and points being brought up were more on-the-side rather than being the stars of the show. So, I think I'm done with the thread.