kyuuei
Emperor/Dictator
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
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Ive been rattling this in my head all day.
Disclaimer: This is not a statement on vegan lifestyles, vegetarian lifestyles, etc. etc. This is just trying to figure out if this is a profit thing or if there's some understandable mechanisms going on... From the specific perspective of: Vegans trying to convince meat eaters that are fundamentally okay with eating meat to eat less of it with the help of vegan-based meat product substitutions... and people going from vegan lifestyles from meat eating ones that maintain eating meat-like recipes and dishes.
The most common arguments I hear:
- The farming industry is subsidized. This is the most common one...
... To which I'd say ALL farming in America is subsidized, and the reality is? Vegans love to brag about all of the money and environment they're saving.. you're not spending money on feed, on water for the animals themselves, on antibiotics or medicines, on slaughterhouses and their equipment, etc. etc. That's a LOT of money saved there.. It does take more crop to equal the bulk and substance of animal meat's protein and calorie ratios, but then I'm back to the fact farming is a subsidized business no matter which side of it you go into. No google searching has seemed to provide any feedback on specific prices of why the plant matter costs more than the animals do, especially considering the end product at the stores is far cheaper in the produce than the meat sections. Any good useful data on why animals are actually cheaper than vegan meat replacements when it comes to the actual production of the components (versus paying for the ideas/development/experimentation and such) because of the farming subsidies would be useful.. but my searches for it have all come up with vague hippies saying probably this..
- it's a specialty/gourmet item.
... Sure, and those exist in meat-eater lifestyles as well.. but the "cheap" brand of vegan hot dogs do not come anywhere near close to the cheap items for meat eaters. .. It doesn't really make sense to say, "Just replace your hot dog with a can of beans."... Technically meat eaters can replace things as well.. so.. really, hot dog for hot dog, vegan hot dogs are much pricier per pound. I definitely feel like someone creating a vegan steak that even meat eaters can enjoy is worth some serious money for the idea, but it is still pandering to people well off with that... and the reality is, vegan lifestyles aren't going to catch on with poorer people anytime soon because of the lack of variety available to feel 'normal' in situations. You have to be making some bank to be able to throw some vegan dogs on the grill with your meaty counterparts whenever you want... So... the stuff that's pretty normal and standard for meat eaters becomes a special treat for vegans... Maybe that's cool for people prone to being vegan, but looking at it from someone not feeling guilty about eating meat, it seems like a horrible business model for trying to convert others.. I thought the whole idea was to save the environment and animals.. and making things super pricey isn't going to help get that done quick.
- It's a niche market.
... This has some value as well.. but we have soooo many mass producers in the vegan market now-a-days, I feel like this is less and less of an excuse. Vegan/vegetarianism is catching on with people and even though the percentage of full time vegans is veeerry small the people who eat vegetarian dishes is not at all, and in a world of whole foods, vegan meats being in every single grocery store ever, and stuff like that it seems like lots of people are perfectly willing to eat vegan--at times or full time. ... and with mass production, the vegetarian ingredients are cheaper than the meat ingredients.. I see them in the stores all the time. The produce is not the most expensive part of shopping--unless that produce is re-packaged into vegan food.
- Everyone prices up their convenience food.
... Very true. But.. When you have a movement based around the ideas that "if everyone did this we'd help the world" why would you play into that? You can just as easily opt out, still make a decent profit, but have it be affordable enough to cut out yet another excuse people would have to not go vegan.
- Vegan and organic tend to go hand in hand.
... This to me is one of the bigger obstacles. Vegans usually want organic produce for a variety of reasons, and organic is objectively more expensive than non organic farming. So mass producing a non-organic plant matter meat might fall pretty flat on the people who would actually be buying it.. But even with organic food being taken into account, surely it wouldn't raise the price per pound to what it currently is now.. Over $6 per pound for vegan ground beef versus $3-4 per pound for the real deal.
- You can't put a price on health!!!
... You absolutely can, and people do all the time. For me, that price is not $135 for the equivalent of $35 worth of meat. I don't want the discussion to turn to this side of things, because the reality is nutritionists and doctors are torn about the health benefits of not eating meat at all vs not eating as much meat, and people can get veerry bias about this very quickly.
I see a lot of people very quick to try to convince me to go vegetarian or vegan and the environmental or health benefits.. and.. in some ways, I'd probably be willing--but at the end of the day, everything for grocery shopping for me comes down to price. To a lesser extent, the health of the food, the ease of cooking it and how much I'll actually eat it. And at the end of the day, a package of hot dogs from cruel awful facilities that don't give a shit about their beef is 12 cents a dog for me, while vegan hot dogs come in packs of like 5 or 7 (what?!) for $4-6. For someone like me who doesn't feel guilt about eating animals, it just doesn't ever seem practical to do.. Especially with nutritionists torn about whether meat is bad for you or not,
Disclaimer: This is not a statement on vegan lifestyles, vegetarian lifestyles, etc. etc. This is just trying to figure out if this is a profit thing or if there's some understandable mechanisms going on... From the specific perspective of: Vegans trying to convince meat eaters that are fundamentally okay with eating meat to eat less of it with the help of vegan-based meat product substitutions... and people going from vegan lifestyles from meat eating ones that maintain eating meat-like recipes and dishes.
The most common arguments I hear:
- The farming industry is subsidized. This is the most common one...
... To which I'd say ALL farming in America is subsidized, and the reality is? Vegans love to brag about all of the money and environment they're saving.. you're not spending money on feed, on water for the animals themselves, on antibiotics or medicines, on slaughterhouses and their equipment, etc. etc. That's a LOT of money saved there.. It does take more crop to equal the bulk and substance of animal meat's protein and calorie ratios, but then I'm back to the fact farming is a subsidized business no matter which side of it you go into. No google searching has seemed to provide any feedback on specific prices of why the plant matter costs more than the animals do, especially considering the end product at the stores is far cheaper in the produce than the meat sections. Any good useful data on why animals are actually cheaper than vegan meat replacements when it comes to the actual production of the components (versus paying for the ideas/development/experimentation and such) because of the farming subsidies would be useful.. but my searches for it have all come up with vague hippies saying probably this..
- it's a specialty/gourmet item.
... Sure, and those exist in meat-eater lifestyles as well.. but the "cheap" brand of vegan hot dogs do not come anywhere near close to the cheap items for meat eaters. .. It doesn't really make sense to say, "Just replace your hot dog with a can of beans."... Technically meat eaters can replace things as well.. so.. really, hot dog for hot dog, vegan hot dogs are much pricier per pound. I definitely feel like someone creating a vegan steak that even meat eaters can enjoy is worth some serious money for the idea, but it is still pandering to people well off with that... and the reality is, vegan lifestyles aren't going to catch on with poorer people anytime soon because of the lack of variety available to feel 'normal' in situations. You have to be making some bank to be able to throw some vegan dogs on the grill with your meaty counterparts whenever you want... So... the stuff that's pretty normal and standard for meat eaters becomes a special treat for vegans... Maybe that's cool for people prone to being vegan, but looking at it from someone not feeling guilty about eating meat, it seems like a horrible business model for trying to convert others.. I thought the whole idea was to save the environment and animals.. and making things super pricey isn't going to help get that done quick.
- It's a niche market.
... This has some value as well.. but we have soooo many mass producers in the vegan market now-a-days, I feel like this is less and less of an excuse. Vegan/vegetarianism is catching on with people and even though the percentage of full time vegans is veeerry small the people who eat vegetarian dishes is not at all, and in a world of whole foods, vegan meats being in every single grocery store ever, and stuff like that it seems like lots of people are perfectly willing to eat vegan--at times or full time. ... and with mass production, the vegetarian ingredients are cheaper than the meat ingredients.. I see them in the stores all the time. The produce is not the most expensive part of shopping--unless that produce is re-packaged into vegan food.
- Everyone prices up their convenience food.
... Very true. But.. When you have a movement based around the ideas that "if everyone did this we'd help the world" why would you play into that? You can just as easily opt out, still make a decent profit, but have it be affordable enough to cut out yet another excuse people would have to not go vegan.
- Vegan and organic tend to go hand in hand.
... This to me is one of the bigger obstacles. Vegans usually want organic produce for a variety of reasons, and organic is objectively more expensive than non organic farming. So mass producing a non-organic plant matter meat might fall pretty flat on the people who would actually be buying it.. But even with organic food being taken into account, surely it wouldn't raise the price per pound to what it currently is now.. Over $6 per pound for vegan ground beef versus $3-4 per pound for the real deal.
- You can't put a price on health!!!
... You absolutely can, and people do all the time. For me, that price is not $135 for the equivalent of $35 worth of meat. I don't want the discussion to turn to this side of things, because the reality is nutritionists and doctors are torn about the health benefits of not eating meat at all vs not eating as much meat, and people can get veerry bias about this very quickly.
I see a lot of people very quick to try to convince me to go vegetarian or vegan and the environmental or health benefits.. and.. in some ways, I'd probably be willing--but at the end of the day, everything for grocery shopping for me comes down to price. To a lesser extent, the health of the food, the ease of cooking it and how much I'll actually eat it. And at the end of the day, a package of hot dogs from cruel awful facilities that don't give a shit about their beef is 12 cents a dog for me, while vegan hot dogs come in packs of like 5 or 7 (what?!) for $4-6. For someone like me who doesn't feel guilt about eating animals, it just doesn't ever seem practical to do.. Especially with nutritionists torn about whether meat is bad for you or not,