Why are Americans so FAKE?

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

My college choir director once described a visit to her mother while she was still in grad school. She had brought an orchestral score with her to study, which she would have to conduct after break. She was sitting at the dining room table poring over the score, hearing all the parts in her head and imagining how she would want to cue them and shape the performance. Then her mother came along and asked, "What do you think about chicken for dinner?" Poof.

This is what it is often like.

Just because I am not engaged in an obvious conversation with someone walking beside me, and don't have a phone pressed to my ear, doesn't mean my mind is idle and my attention is yours to demand.

For me, it is the scene from Cinderella when she was having a dream and the rats wake her up. And then she's like "fuckers, I'm going to kill some rats." That's small talk, a reminder that you live in an attic with a bunch of rats.

Actually, i don't mind it, except when I'm doing work. With all the people who want small talk, it adds up to a big waste of time.

 

[Kerik_S]

It's just social lubrication.

Everyone who engages in it knows on some level that you're not actually conferring trust-- it's just rote/memorized behaviors that people do in absence of knowing one another on a nuanced level.

It's only "fake" if you view pleasantries-on-initial-meeting as some kind of promise to be pleasant indefinitely-- no one in America is saying that that's the case.

Most people are aware that they're going to break past the initial "meeting period" and engage in more "realness" later on-- most people are waiting for that opportunity to break the "manners" because it's tiresome and mechanical.

　
I think what you're experiencing is Fi-valuing with low/weak Fe unable to inform you of the temporary nature of the rote behavior.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION], and [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], perfectly stated my opinion. My hatred is towards the schooling system of creating sheep that need to mingle with one another instead of a creating a system that allows for independence, and creativity. Choosing who you want to talk to is where it's at as Bill Hicks once joked, someone asked me "It takes twice as much energy not to smile" I responded with "it takes twice as much energy to tell me that then to leave me alone", something like that. It's a personal preference.

Actually, the reverse is true. I asked once why people shown in the earliest photographs always looked so dour. It was explained to me that exposure times were very long - sometimes several minutes - and a dour, essentially frowing expression was easier to hold perfectly still for that time than a smile.

 

[Mole]

Americans are so fake because they are like the rest of us and want to have their cake and eat it too. But with the exception (and remember American Exceptionalism), that Americans are rich enough and powerful enough to have their cake and eat it too, without worrying about being forced to share it.

America is the perfect storm of fakery. The sad fact is, it takes in so many of us.

So the simple fact is Americans are fake because they can be. And we are so gullible, we believe it.

 

[Mole]

Fakes are so interesting.

To be a good fake, we need to understand the presuppositions around us and play to them, to pander to them, and groom our targets.

A good fake operates below the radar, is not seen, but sees.

A good fake knows what we really want, and makes sure they give it to us.

A good fake sees the fake in everyone, and plays to it. It takes a good fake to know a fake.

A good fake sees the world as a masquerade ball, and they are the belle of the ball.

 

[Thalassa]

Part of the fundamental problem with the United States has to do with people co-opting a fantasy identity from a mix of television and corporate logos. While other countries may have television, the United States is often the center of programming and obviously Hollywood films.

One of the particular problems with the United States versus other nations is the lack of an inherent cultural identity due to so many different cultures moving here, so people grasp desperately for identity through empty things like Nike and Disney.

This is not to say that American films are devoid of solid artistic and cultural merit - but a lot of American people seem more trained to trash TV than art film.

It's also the corporate mindset.

None of this stuff is a real cultural identity, and on a subconscious level even the hypnotized sense this, and therefore seem like plastic imitations of commericialism.

One of the reasons I defend the South so viciously despite its flaws, is because it's the only region of the United States that retains any historical cultural identity, outside of the wealthiest parts of New England or D C...but the South is more definitive, because all classes still participate, not just the wealthy or most educated.

 

[Thalassa]

Actually, the reverse is true. I asked once why people shown in the earliest photographs always looked so dour. It was explained to me that exposure times were very long - sometimes several minutes - and a dour, essentially frowing expression was easier to hold perfectly still for that time than a smile.

Yeah. It's about the time it took to photograph it's not because all 19th century people were miserable.

 

[Thalassa]

Why do you interpret being polite as rude as fuck?



I think its kind of silly to expect it to be obligatory that everyone you meet/see immediately spill their guts to you. That would get annoying as hell. It's also naïve to place such unearned trust in strangers. My method about these things is to treat new people for the first time as nice as possible and then reciprocate however they treat me from that point on.

I think too many people are making this about politeness, or small talk. I'm not sure that's what makes American seem fake. It's the aping of middle brow formulaic pop culture and the strict conformist imitation of real spontaneous beauty that makes American people fake.

The "have a nice day" of corporate America isn't social lubricant - it's often masked boredom or even hostility, as if you get paid for greeting objects pleasantly, not realistically treating them as people.

That's what I get out of this. I think some people are missing the point, tbh.

 

[Thalassa]

If I can comment.

Since I am comming from Eastern European country I will dare to say this is mostly the consequence of our education systems. USA from what I see is mostly about educating for specific jobs, while here education is trying to give one deeper sense of understanding the reality. We have the term "basic culture" that is made of quite a number of facts and models and everyone should know those. Also as the education is much more socialized the smarter people get direct state sponsorship in education so that they can become hardcore experts in a topic or few of them. What allows many people to much more easily develop their intellect than in USA. Where you often can't educate yourself without side job that takes plenty of time or help of private businesses that will want something in return.


I know people who went to USA to visit relatives and similar to that and they say that because of this education methodology American TV quizes are very very easy. Earning a 100 000 $ or more should be a piece of cake for a real intellectual from these parts.

I think this is part of the problem too. At university I had an astounding realization and that was I was in no way shape or form designed to be an American public school teacher - and furthermore if I had children I'd never send them there, much less "day care" - because it's modeled around 19th century American factories. It's meant to produce people who work for other people.

I think Andy Warhol was brilliant for this reason - not necessarily because his pictures are all so lovely, but because he pinpointed American culture to an absurd degree. It's interesting to note his ancestry was Slavic.

 

[Rasofy]

Comparing to Russians is a bit extreme, isn't it? I wouldn't say the average American is fake. Entitled, yes, overly p.c., yes, but fake is a word I'd save for other parts of the world

 

[SearchingforPeace]

The one thing my ENFP friend misses about her Eastern European ENFJ ex husband are the philosophical conversations. They discussed literature and art and all sorts of high culture things, because he came from that background. Even most intelligent American men she has dated since then have very little intellectual depth....

I feel it might be a valid criticism, as America has been fully engulfed with crass commercialism as was noted by a prior post.

 

[Coriolis]

I think this is part of the problem too. At university I had an astounding realization and that was I was in no way shape or form designed to be an American public school teacher - and furthermore if I had children I'd never send them there, much less "day care" - because it's modeled around 19th century American factories. It's meant to produce people who work for other people.

From what I have seen, this observation is far more true for schools (K-12) than for daycares. The pre-kindergarten set are still usually indulged with plenty of playtime, hands-on exploration, dress-up play, artwork, etc. But then daycares are still mostly private, at least in my area. Some of them also have a kindergarten, and I see a huge difference already between those and the kindergartens in public schools, which are more likely to follow your 19th century model.

One of the particular problems with the United States versus other nations is the lack of an inherent cultural identity due to so many different cultures moving here, so people grasp desperately for identity through empty things like Nike and Disney.

This is not to say that American films are devoid of solid artistic and cultural merit - but a lot of American people seem more trained to trash TV than art film.

It's also the corporate mindset.

None of this stuff is a real cultural identity, and on a subconscious level even the hypnotized sense this, and therefore seem like plastic imitations of commericialism.

One of the reasons I defend the South so viciously despite its flaws, is because it's the only region of the United States that retains any historical cultural identity, outside of the wealthiest parts of New England or D C...but the South is more definitive, because all classes still participate, not just the wealthy or most educated.

I think the situation is a bit more complicated than this. First there is an American culture, that has been noted by foreign authors visiting our shores for generations. On top of, or within, this are subcultures, such as the Southern culture you note. I am from New England, and there is very much a New England culture that has little to do with those wealthiest of folks. John Adams is a good historical exemplar, but those qualities are very much valued and present today. You are absolutely right about the corporate mindset, though. That works at cross-purposes to all the various organic cultural threads, to everyone's detriment.

 

[Mole]

It is obvious to all of us that whether you are black or white, rich or poor, North or South or West or East, male or female, straight or gay or lesbian, atheist or a person of Faith, whether you are a cleanskin or a convict, whether you are an addict or sober, whether you party or read books, whether you are cultured or uncultured, whether you are educated or uneducated, whether you are healthy or sick, whether you are fat or thin, whether you are beautiful or ugly, you are all American.

The comedy is that being an American is invisible to Americans. This is because all environments are invisible - after all, fish didn't discover water.

And being invisible Americans can't consciously dance with their culture, they can't analyse their culture, they can't defend their culture, in fact, (and I know this is hard to believe) they think they have no culture.

Americans are totally dependent on being limned from the outside. American culture can only be seen from the outside, and the view is necessarily foreign.

 

[five sounds]

Yeah that bothers a lot of Americans too I think.

 

[Thalassa]

From what I have seen, this observation is far more true for schools (K-12) than for daycares. The pre-kindergarten set are still usually indulged with plenty of playtime, hands-on exploration, dress-up play, artwork, etc. But then daycares are still mostly private, at least in my area. Some of them also have a kindergarten, and I see a huge difference already between those and the kindergartens in public schools, which are more likely to follow your 19th century model.


I think the situation is a bit more complicated than this. First there is an American culture, that has been noted by foreign authors visiting our shores for generations. On top of, or within, this are subcultures, such as the Southern culture you note. I am from New England, and there is very much a New England culture that has little to do with those wealthiest of folks. John Adams is a good historical exemplar, but those qualities are very much valued and present today. You are absolutely right about the corporate mindset, though. That works at cross-purposes to all the various organic cultural threads, to everyone's detriment.

Hmm - I don't know how cohesive the culture is without marketing though, because of the old divisions in cities of Jews, Asian people or Italians, and the modern manifestation of this via differences in regional culture (I stand corrected about New England), as well as newer immigrants still sticking to their ethnic identity as Latino or Arabic, for example. One of my professors in college called it a salad bowl instead of a melting pot. Then no one can decide: are we a Christian nation? Some people insist yes, others say no. I will agree there are common themes like materialism, American exceptionalism, and of course how extreme American people are - but this extremism points again to a lack of cohesive identity other than we have all been to McDonald's or seen a Disney movie.

The "freedom" spirit of Americans is probably something that is a defining feature. I'm actually interested in American myths, it's one of the reasons I like Lana del Rey. ..but she astutely points to a dreamy Hollywood America that never really was, while tapping into those archetypes as skillfully as Seth McFarlane but much more sympathetically and romantically.

 

[Thalassa]

It is obvious to all of us that whether you are black or white, rich or poor, North or South or West or East, male or female, straight or gay or lesbian, atheist or a person of Faith, whether you are a cleanskin or a convict, whether you are an addict or sober, whether you party or read books, whether you are cultured or uncultured, whether you are educated or uneducated, whether you are healthy or sick, whether you are fat or thin, whether you are beautiful or ugly, you are all American.

The comedy is that being an American is invisible to Americans. This is because all environments are invisible - after all, fish didn't discover water.

And being invisible Americans can't consciously dance with their culture, they can't analyse their culture, they can't defend their culture, in fact, (and I know this is hard to believe) they think they have no culture.

Americans are totally dependent on being limned from the outside. American culture can only be seen from the outside, and the view is necessarily foreign.

Do tell! Paint us a picture, then.

 

[Coriolis]

Hmm - I don't know how cohesive the culture is without marketing though, because of the old divisions in cities of Jews, Asian people or Italians, and the modern manifestation of this via differences in regional culture (I stand corrected about New England), as well as newer immigrants still sticking to their ethnic identity as Latino or Arabic, for example. One of my professors in college called it a salad bowl instead of a melting pot. Then no one can decide: are we a Christian nation? Some people insist yes, others say no. I will agree there are common themes like materialism, American exceptionalism, and of course how extreme American people are - but this extremism points again to a lack of cohesive identity other than we have all been to McDonald's or seen a Disney movie.

The "freedom" spirit of Americans is probably something that is a defining feature. I'm actually interested in American myths, it's one of the reasons I like Lana del Rey. ..but she astutely points to a dreamy Hollywood America that never really was, while tapping into those archetypes as skillfully as Seth McFarlane but much more sympathetically and romantically.

Yes, there's freedom, but more than that a sense of being able to make of yourself what you want through hard work and focusing on your dreams. I realize this is much easier said than done given the hardships that many segments of the population face, but it has largely been part of the appeal of America for immigrants, the idea that here they will not be held to standards of caste or ethnicity or religion, but simply how hard they work and what they can do. The nation has a long tradition of immigrants who come here with little more than the clothes they are wearing but find work, settle down, and have a better life than they would in their original home. Yes, they bring their own cultural traditions and perspectives (fruit salad is a good metaphor), but the ones who come are those who already buy into that aspect of American culture, so in that respect they just serve to reinforce it.

 

[Mole]

Do tell! Paint us a picture, then.

Alexis de Tocqueville, a French aristocrat, started painting the picture of America in 1835 with Democracy in America, click on http://classiques.uqac.ca/classique...al_critical_ed/democracy_in_america_vol_2.pdf

We have built on this picture ever since. For instance,
Americans have their own way of signalling deference and dominance.

American children are taught to express themselves and entertain, whereas American adults listen to the children. So those who talk and entertain are showing deference, while those who listen are showing dominance.

In Oz it is exactly the other way round, those who talk and entertain are adults, and talking and entertaining show dominance, while children listen and show deference.

So when Americans talk and entertain they think they are showing deference, while we interpret it as dominance. And as they tend to do this all the time we call them, Big mouthed Yanks.

So there is a constant stream of misunderstanding between Oz and the USA because we have different signals for dominance and deference.

 

[Mole]

Do tell! Paint us a picture, then.

Building on the picture painted of America by Alexis de Tocqueville in 1835, we see America was founded under the Royal Ascendancy, while Oz was settled after 100 years of peaceful Aristocratic Ascendancy.

So Americans have inherited and democratised Royal values, while we have inherited and democratised Aristocratic values. So every American is a little King or Queen, while every Australian is a little Aristocrat.

The Aristocratic values we have inherited are a love of the outdoors, brutality in sport and manners, peaceful resolution of conflict, and a jealousy of anyone seeking to become King, so we ruthlessly cut down tall poppies, and with rat cunning we keep the King weak and powerless.

By contrast Royal Americans encourage and value those who rise above their fellows and celebrate them, turning them into celebrities, and Americans are extraordinarily polite, and seek to settle things with a gun.

So we are Aristocrats who keep a weak and powerless King, while Americans stole the power of their King, and gave it to each American. Americans believe in Royal power so much, their paranoia led them to commit Royal patricide so they themselves could be Royal.

 

[Thalassa]

Alexis de Tocqueville, a French aristocrat, started painting the picture of America in 1835 with Democracy in America, click on http://classiques.uqac.ca/classique...al_critical_ed/democracy_in_america_vol_2.pdf

We have built on this picture ever since. For instance,
Americans have their own way of signalling deference and dominance.

American children are taught to express themselves and entertain, whereas American adults listen to the children. So those who talk and entertain are showing deference, while those who listen are showing dominance.

In Oz it is exactly the other way round, those who talk and entertain are adults, and talking and entertaining show dominance, while children listen and show deference.

So when Americans talk and entertain they think they are showing deference, while we interpret it as dominance. And as they tend to do this all the time we call them, Big mouthed Yanks.

So there is a constant stream of misunderstanding between Oz and the USA because we have different signals for dominance and deference.

This is extremely interesting, the post you made about Royals seemed pretty common sensical, but this aspect about deference is a great insight.