[NT] Who's more close-minded: NTJs or NTPS?

[Qre:us]

Case point, made by the NTP.

The irony!

FAIL!

 

[Jaguar]

NTJ It's the anger.

That comment coming from someone who wants to see a drive-by shooting in an Fe neighborhood?
Get out of Dodge!

 

[Moiety]

That comment coming from someone who wants to see a drive-by shooting in an Fe neighborhood?
Get out of Dodge!

Dodge? What's Dodge? Like my Dodge Viper? Or Dodge City?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

It's a town.

 

[Glycerine]

One of the most open-minded people I know is an ENTJ.

 

[Zarathustra]

stupid question, the one who judges the external world more readily, instead of trying to understand the big picture before making the judgment of course..

-1

+1

-1

You, sir, suck at flaming the NTP vs. NTJ war. Asking such logical questions.

It's a welcome back present for simulatedworld, so make the arguments fly.

+1

I'd also ask the question, in what context?

IMO, it depends on what's at stake: Te or Ti. NTJs can be inflexible regarding the external results (i.e -- what "should" occur), but open-minded about the internal processes necessary to arrive there. Conversely, NTPs are flexible on the results, yet steady-fast on what is considered the "truth".

So an NTJ's "close-mindedness" works in the opposite direction of an NTP's. You'll rarely see a bunch of NTJ's arguing excessively about which system is the most logical, rather than the one that "works" and keeps the environment orderly. Switch the tables around, and NTP's are more prone to being meticulous about logical precision. Both types aim to make sense, but in a way the other individual doesn't value, or recognize.

So, you're saying NTJs care more about soundness, while NTPs care more about validity?

Interesting...

Ah, we change our initial judgment about the external world as soon as the circumstances show us otherwise. We shoot for approximations, and base our decisions upon them, which may eventually lead us to the final judgment. For some, waiting all day for the "right" choice takes up too much time. Many prefer to experiment and fix them as they go.

So NTJs actually change their opinions if the facts no longer corroborate...?

And this is close-minded how...?

Here's a gem from SimulatedWorld:

"So INP is flexible now, stubborn later; INJ is the other way around." - SW

In the end, it's a matter of when you want to see how stubborn someone can really be.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with what Sim says there...

Just consider how Sim can hold so rigorously to "his model" in the present -- how is that being "flexible now"? And isn't that just an aspect of Ti (at least when wielded in a certain way?)

I feel the same way about his NTJ-NTP not-understanding-one-another bit that he always reposts.

I critiqued it a while back, but I'm not sure whether he understood it.

He's too stuck in his box.

 

[Zarathustra]

We need a poll for which type is most likely to fail to understand irony.

Agreed.

stupid question, the one who judges the external world more readily, instead of trying to understand the big picture before making the judgment of course..

+1

Including the unintentional variety...

 

[Jaguar]

Dodge? What's Dodge? Like my Dodge Viper? Or Dodge City?

"Get out of Dodge." Dodge City. Wanker!

 

[Zarathustra]

Having an open mind means nothing more than having the will to listen and ponder about other views. It doesn't mean you have to adapt to those views wether or not you believe them.

So there are open minded and close minded NTJ's and NTP's. Open mindedness has nothing to do with type. If any of the types are naturally inclined to be either open or close minded, I have yet to see arguements for it.

Along with Lethe's post(s), this was the only one that really dug into the issue in the way I'd been hoping for.

I very much agree with what you express here wolf, but I don't think it tells the whole story.

The part it does explain, it explains correctly. But I think there is more.

Lethe does a pretty good job explaining the other part: that each of us -- NTJs and NTPs -- can be close-minded in our own particular ways.

Just being a certain type doesn't make one close-minded or open-minded: that much is obvious. There are open and close-minded NTJs and NTPs.

We can, however, identify how each type is close-minded in different ways (Lethe said that the difference was more temporal, which, I can somewhat understand, but I don't think that really gets to the crux of the issue).

I certainly think an NTJ can be open-minded in the present, and an NTP close-minded, so... I'm not sure where this explanation gets us...

Obviously, Lethe's notion and the following one intersect at some point, but I think it would be more useful to focus on the manner in which Ne/Ti and Te/Ni thinking differ in how they can be close-minded, not just the "when" (of course, if she clarifies how this "when" relates to Ti/Ne and Ni/Te differences, then she'd be doing just that *nudge*).

Aside from that, there's also the obvious "which type is more likely to demonstrate close-minded tendencies", which was kind of the lower-common-denominator impulse to which this thread was aimed, albeit solely in the hope that we might actually get a more fruitful discussion going regarding the above-mentioned topic(s).

 

[Zarathustra]

"Get out of Dodge." Dodge City. Wanker!

Don't worry, Jag.

I'm 26, and I got it.

You're not too old...

 

[Craft]

Define "close minded". If to viewpoints(ambitions etc.), INTJ. If to understanding(logic etc.), INTP. If to facts, INTP>INTJ. If to values, INTJ>INTP.

Introversion factors + in close-mindedness. Extroversion = -.

 

[onemoretime]

Define "close minded".

Now you did it.

 

[Jaguar]

Now you did it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Define "close minded".

Now you did it.

Ne/Ti thinking.

 

[Zarathustra]

Those who have voted, thus far, that NTJs are more close-minded:

NTPs
BÃ¥rris - INTP
Redbone - INTP
Fan.of.Townsend - INTP
InsatiableCuriosity - INTP
INTP - INTP who really hates NTJs
MacGuffin - INTP
Morgan Le Fay - INTP
Neobick - INTP
paradigm-shift - INTx (says INTj socionics)
phobik - ENTP
ReflecttcelfeR - ENTP
Shmooooooooo - INTP
spacab - INTP
tawanda - ENTP
thealchemist - ENTP
Within - INTx (says INTJ MBTI, but LII socionics)
xfactor99 - INTP

NTJs
highlander - INTJ
Economica - INTJ
within - INTJ

Other
Z Buck McFate - INFJ
Emectar - ENFP
Rainne - ISTP
Chloee - unstated

 

[Zarathustra]

Those who have voted, thus far, that NTPs are more close-minded:

NTJs
JustHer - ENTJ
Kangirl - ENTJ
vieamemusique - ENTJ
Zarathustra - INTJ (although, I just voted to this shit kick-started)

Other
paisley1 - INFJ
Anastar - unstated

 

[Paisley]

Pitting IN vs IT vs EN vs ET. Completely subjective question, but based on my experience, INTP's are more closeminded than INTJ's, but ENTJ's way more closeminded than ENTP's, but they are all stubborn on what they think is correct, like I'm sure all the INTP's and ENTJ's will go ahead and disagree with me on that.

 

[Zarathustra]

As one would suspect, there's a rather high correlation here...

So, my question is to the non-NTPs who voted that NTJs are more close-minded (particularly the NTJs who voted as such), and to non-NTJs who voted that the NTPs are more close-minded...

Why?

 

[Zarathustra]

Pitting IN vs IT vs EN vs ET. Completely subjective question, but based on my experience, INTP's are more closeminded than INTJ's, but ENTJ's way more closeminded than ENTP's, but they are all stubborn on what they think is correct, like I'm sure all the INTP's and ENTJ's will go ahead and disagree with me on that.

+2

That's a really great observation.

Interestingly enough, under Socionic's notation, those two types (MBTI's ENTJ and INTP) would be labeled the NT judgers: ENTj and INTj.

I have a pet theory that the types that get labeled "J/j" under both MBTI and Socionic's notation would display the most characteristics generally considered to be "judgmental" of all the types (i.e., ENTJ, ESTJ, ENFJ, ESFJ)...

 

[Paisley]

INTP's with their Ti only know what they know, and don't make "I don't know" statements very often, which I'd suggest is Ni envy. Most ENTJ's are business exec's and they only care about people listening to them and their business plan, and can have difficulty thinking of anything else...more tunnel vision than "closemindedness", whereas I'd never peg an ENTP for being closeminded, they never finish anything....nothing is ever closed....