Which function is the hardest for you to grasp?

[OrangeAppled]

I will be a tad arrogant and say I feel that I have a better understanding of all the functions than most people.

I grasp Ni better than I can currently explain it. I identify the attitude pretty readily in a person. Honestly, it fails to impress me. Because I prefer Ne, I tend to feel that "anything Ni can do, Ne can do better". The extroverted attitude of a function tends to lead to viewing the introverted counterpart as sort of a narrower, redundant, and uh, useless version.

But having been on the receiving end of that from Fe types, I accept in theory that Ni is deeper than Ne. I just rarely see it in person.

Si is actually hard for me to grasp, as it does not merely boil down to memory. In person, the Si mentality frustrates me more than Ni. I suppose the Pi functions in general feel the most foreign.

And I may oversimplify the extroverted functions, besides Ne. I may carry the most disdain for Je functions, and maybe this reveals a lack of understanding on my part.

The easiest for me to grasp are Fi and Ti, so much so that I relate very well to both, with Fi just edging Ti out as my identity.

 

[Abendrot]

Wish all these functions and stuff just had like regular names or something

I mean if we can take a concept and be all reducey to like oh that's Fi or that's Ne or that's Si and people know what we're talking about by just those two letters than surely there must be like actual words already out there that stand for the same concepts

There's like a fucking bunch of words in English and it doesn't make sense to me how there not one word in the whole English language that can't take the place of Fi or Se or Si that actually means something also outside of typology

Your wish is granted. Personality hacker has come up with nicknames for the functions.

Fi: Authenticity
Fe: Harmony
Ti: Accuracy
Te: Effectiveness
Ni: Perspectives
Ne: Exploration
Si: Memory
Se: Sensation


Why Personality Hacker Uses Nicknames For The 8 Jungian Cognitive Functions - Personality Type and Personal Growth | Personality Hacker

 

[Coriolis]

Maybe this perception as Ni being useful in strictly theoretical terms comes from my experience with xNxJs irl. A common theme between them all is that they won't do anything. They have all these ideas and plans, but will actually sit on their ass with zero initiative. "I can't do this because this, that, and the third and this is the way it has to be. Nothing on planet earth will allow this to happen so I'll just sit here and not try." (AND YES, ENTJs DO THAT TOO.) They aren't even organized. And normally, xNxP and xNxJ combos don't work well together. ESPECIALLY ENxP and INxJs.

That sounds more like NTPs to me, or even NFPs. All the NTJs I know (and I probably know alot more than most folks) are very driven and goal-oriented, and typically get alot accomplished, both on the job and in personal pursuits. Ni is like an instant organizer or roadmap, that as soon as you get an idea do to something, just automatically shows how all the steps and components best fit together to reach that goal. Sure, Si can perform the same function, but will rely on how things were done in the past. Ni will get the job done even when something has never been done before. As always, the right tool for the job.

For example I am solving a problem and Ti says that "It would be most logical to bomb x country to save future wars then Fe comes along and says "You will be considered a evil heartless murderer (Just a theoretical example)

The "bomb country X" notion seems alot like Te - the best way to reach your goal. Te dom/aux, however, don't have strong enough Fe preference to override this. Closest we can come is Fi. This doesn't really care what others think: "you will be considered . . . " so what? It does act as our conscience, though, and might point out something like: "but that will go against your value of preserving human life, or promoting individual autonomy", or even "I wouldn't be able live with myself for causing so much suffering".

Ahh I see. So you see the connections more mechanically then? It's fascinating to me because the connections between things are much more of a feeling to me, whereas the connections between things, on a more direct, mechanical way, can be done, but I have to specifically get into that frame of mind. When I do, it's very narrowed in too and I can start to lose the big picture. You can probably guess that I don't venture into this area often at all, but it provides SO much information when I need it.

Interesting. I don't see everything connected in one giant mess. I see many overlapping networks of connections, some like the ships passing in the night, with very little direct contact/interaction; others closely intertwined. I see certain commonalities across everything (e.g. their basic nature as matter and energy) but that isn't the same. I see connections more as cause and effect relationships: if you prod this here, you will get that effect over there.

I definitely have trouble figuring out Fe. I can't get too many straight answers aside from the usual stereotypes or superficial understandings of it. They like harmony, they like this and that, but why?? What is happening beneath the surface that is guiding these actions? What propels Fe users? I see how Ti can be the compass for Fe in Ti/Fe users, I get that, but what happens when you flip it? How does Fe guide Ti? I suppose... Wait... I may be answering my own question... I may have it, hold up.

It is tempting for me to say Fe also, but as much as it rubs me the wrong way, I get along even less with Si. On the surface it seems very straightforward and even simple-minded. It is memories, nostalgia, our perceptions of the past. I have a decent memory for things that are important to me or things I want to recall. General reminiscence, however, often eludes me. Memories of childhood or other places I have lived quickly become vague and washed out. Trying to recall these past situations is difficult. The more I try, the more they elude me. It is like forever seeing something out of the corner of my eye, but never being able to get it in the center of my field of view. When I am forced to focus on this, say by visiting the place where I grew up, it produces a feeling I can only describe as temporal vertigo. It is physically unsettling in a stomach-turning way. It is interesting that [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] in his OP used the word "revolting".

Like Hard, I also have no great affinity for Ne, but it just seems like a big mental mess to me. I have no problem sorting out messes when it is worthwhile to do so.

 

[Obfuscate]

That sounds more like NTPs to me, or even NFPs. All the NTJs I know (and I probably know alot more than most folks) are very driven and goal-oriented, and typically get alot accomplished, both on the job and in personal pursuits. Ni is like an instant organizer or roadmap, that as soon as you get an idea do to something, just automatically shows how all the steps and components best fit together to reach that goal. *snip* Ni will get the job done even when something has never been done before. As always, the right tool for the job.

that seems pretty spot on to me... it might even be right concerning the Si bit, but then i would have to think about it "hard" before agreeing (and i'ld rather not)...

 

[Dreamer]

Oh goodness, after reading the descriptions of Ne by [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], I almost want to stare down Ne in the face with my hands up in the air and say, "dude, what gives?!". It does seem like an asinine function from an outsiders perspective. Like, where is the logic and where are you going? I kind of feel like the P for perceiving was almost invented by Ne. Because Ne is all over the place in nature, what others may deem chaos, is not only understood by the Ne dom or aux user, but is seen as perfectly normal. I don't know if I or anyone else could ever frame Ne in a way that could give the Js and Ni doms/aux people peace with it, but my attempt would be that I've never felt a need or worried to structure or plan for things so much since I am comfortable enough and tend to do just fine thinking on the fly. The structure, if you will, is seen in those quick and brief moments of decision making, rather than beforehand with calculated response. Mmm... I can already sense the dread in you two as I say that.

Now with Si... I get tripped up by Si fairly regularly and it can be very jarring for me. What I know of something is often ingrained in my mind so well, that any changes or modifications to that thing, can totally throw me off. Best example, seeing someone at one point in their life, then seeing them again years later. Same person, but since they've evolved, of course, they've also changed their interests, who they are, etc. I understand that completely, but my mind will have the hardest time trying to link these two separate beings into one. I can't erase a past knowing of someone, it's there forever. So somehow, I have to bridge these two versions of that same person, to myself, in order for it to make sense. Honestly... I think this is literally the best, real, example I can think of between the tug and pull between Ne/Si. The Ne is trying earnestly to make that connection but 'ol Si just isn't having it and holds tightly to these seperate images, these impressions.

 

[Lord Lavender]

That sounds more like NTPs to me, or even NFPs. All the NTJs I know (and I probably know alot more than most folks) are very driven and goal-oriented, and typically get alot accomplished, both on the job and in personal pursuits. Ni is like an instant organizer or roadmap, that as soon as you get an idea do to something, just automatically shows how all the steps and components best fit together to reach that goal. Sure, Si can perform the same function, but will rely on how things were done in the past. Ni will get the job done even when something has never been done before. As always, the right tool for the job.


The "bomb country X" notion seems alot like Te - the best way to reach your goal. Te dom/aux, however, don't have strong enough Fe preference to override this. Closest we can come is Fi. This doesn't really care what others think: "you will be considered . . . " so what? It does act as our conscience, though, and might point out something like: "but that will go against your value of preserving human life, or promoting individual autonomy", or even "I wouldn't be able live with myself for causing so much suffering".


It is tempting for me to say Fe also, but as much as it rubs me the wrong way, I get along even less with Si. On the surface it seems very straightforward and even simple-minded. It is memories, nostalgia, our perceptions of the past. I have a decent memory for things that are important to me or things I want to recall. General reminiscence, however, often eludes me. Memories of childhood or other places I have lived quickly become vague and washed out. Trying to recall these past situations is difficult. The more I try, the more they elude me. It is like forever seeing something out of the corner of my eye, but never being able to get it in the center of my field of view. When I am forced to focus on this, say by visiting the place where I grew up, it produces a feeling I can only describe as temporal vertigo. It is physically unsettling in a stomach-turning way. It is interesting that [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] in his OP used the word "revolting".

The top paragraph is basically myself as a NTP. I will have those ideas like "we should come up with anti-bacteria door handles to reduce illness or come up with a device to control the weather via sucking clouds or we should GM people so they can photosynthesise to reduce world hunger" but ill then go "nah cant be bothered got a more interesting idea/thing going on. I actually think NFPs though are less messy than NTPs as they have Te while NTPs dont.
As for the bomb country X thing i can see what separates me from TJ types. TJ types will come up with a Te solution and likewise myself a Ti solution. The feeling side is different. TJs will consider their inner moral compass while i am more shallow will consider how it will be seen by the wider world.

Everything can be connected if you look hard enough. For example i notice patterns across the universe. For instance i have made a connection between gravity and statue (wealth and power). It is a universal thing that everything has gravity (power) but some have more than others and the large bodies "stars" like film stars are also stars in a literal sense as well as they have a large gravity and can influence many smaller bodies as well.

It seems that many people dislike Fe/Si which is interesting. Fe is one of my favourite functions as without Fe we would not have society as Fe is all about playing nice with each other by a standard of rules. (I know a more more complicated than that). Si is something i have a bittersweet relationship with not the revolt some have.

 

[Coriolis]

It seems that many people dislike Fe/Si which is interesting. Fe is one of my favourite functions as without Fe we would not have society as Fe is all about playing nice with each other by a standard of rules. (I know a more more complicated than that). Si is something i have a bittersweet relationship with not the revolt some have.

Au contraire. Without Fe, society would simply be based on Te, where instead of playing nice we are playing efficiently and effectively (greatest good for greatest number logic or similar might be prevalent).

 

[Lord Lavender]

Au contraire. Without Fe, society would simply be based on Te, where instead of playing nice we are playing efficiently and effectively (greatest good for greatest number logic or similar might be prevalent).

I have always wondered what society would look like if we only had certain functions (What would a world with just Ti/Fe users look like with in other worlds just FJ and TP types ans so on). That would be material for another thread anyway as derailing threads isnt something that is approved off.

Anyway to answer your statement I think that Fe and Te are both needed. Sometimes when us Fe/Ti users are at our worse (Being emotionally manipulative, bullying someone because they dont fit in e.t.c. (All stereotypical Ti/Fe things so it can vary). Fi/Te can come along and see what we are doing with an outsiders point of view to say that we are not being functional for lack of a better word. I agree with you that society could function without Fe but it would look different and plus there would still be Fi so it wouldn't be devoid of caring and emotion just in a different way from Fe.

 

[Peter Pan]

Your wish is granted. Personality hacker has come up with nicknames for the functions.

Fi: Authenticity
Fe: Harmony
Ti: Accuracy
Te: Effectiveness
Ni: Perspectives
Ne: Exploration
Si: Memory
Se: Sensation


Why Personality Hacker Uses Nicknames For The 8 Jungian Cognitive Functions - Personality Type and Personal Growth | Personality Hacker

Oh yeah haha those are way better

Why don't we just use those and then we don't have pages of walls of texts everytime someone wants to convey their thoughts and they can just be like oh yeah authenticity memory and if someone doesn't know what the person is talking about they can just pop open a dictionary and be like oh yeah I see authenticity memory and then keep talking about something else

 

[Abendrot]

Oh yeah haha those are way better

Why don't we just use those and then we don't have pages of walls of texts everytime someone wants to convey their thoughts and they can just be like oh yeah authenticity memory and if someone doesn't know what the person is talking about they can just pop open a dictionary and be like oh yeah I see authenticity memory and then keep talking about something else

Because the whole point is to obfuscate it and profit off of your confusion .People wouldn't be as interested in MBTI if it weren't complicated.

 

[á´…eparted]

Au contraire. Without Fe, society would simply be based on Te, where instead of playing nice we are playing efficiently and effectively (greatest good for greatest number logic or similar might be prevalent).

This makes me almost sad enough to use a sad emoticon in your presence. Almost.

 

[cascadeco]

It's a tough one to answer. I don't think it's a single function in isolation for me, it's a combination.

Also, I don't think it's that I 'don't get it', it's that I seem to fundamentally clash; not really for lack of trying on either end. Like, incompatible worldviews/way of Being, almost. Difficulty on both ends reconciling or comprehending the other person. There's perhaps an intellectual 'I get it', even intellectual acknowledgment and appreciation, but not so much a deep-rooted soul understanding. It's like oil and water. The most alien worldview when combined with mine is probably NeTi, the waters are difficult to navigate on a deeper level of understanding. Surface level? Not as much a problem. (But then... now I'm thinking... ANYone you strive to understand on a truly deep level is eventually potentially going to seem super alien. But despite that, yeah, I'll just leave my answer as-is. haha. )

Generally though, for me it's never seemed to be a 'this function is something I hate'/'I can't get along with anyone of this sort', as it's pretty much always an individual basis; some people of a type drive me crazy, others I think are amazing. It probably ties to integration, health, and values.

 

[miss fortune]

For me it is a toss between Se and Ni (I chose Se but it was hard to decide). High Se users appear to be those superhuman athletes from my perceptive (Normal people not athletes or anything, ESTPs in particular (The ones I have known) have superhuman reflexes and awareness that I lack (From my perspective they appear to like those characters from cartoons when you punch them they teleport), They can climb buldings and preform tricks with ease while I am struggling to tie my shoelaces, walking into things and nearly getting run over by cars. On the other hand Ni is also strange as they are very stubborn and I don't understand how it works. While I do enjoy the company of Ni users they just view and do things very differently from what I do.

I also find both Fi and Te very alien as well. Te to me appears to be the "red tape" function that gets in the way of my Ti logic (Me and TJ types often clash due to the Ti/Te differences) while Fi is alien to me.

as a Se dom who gets made fun of for stumbling into walls and a complete inability to catch footballs, I can promise that we aren't all good athletes

I am, however, awesome at detecting changes in rhythm of my environment... when something sounds slightly off or people are moving in a different pattern... combined with Ti's desire to figure things out that makes me a pretty good at being the first on the scene of something to the point where I'm usually almost done solving it before anyone else realizes that something's wrong




on the other hand, while I can intellectually comprehend Fi, I just don't GET it... it seems spiky and alien to me

 

[Lord Lavender]

as a Se dom who gets made fun of for stumbling into walls and a complete inability to catch footballs, I can promise that we aren't all good athletes

I am, however, awesome at detecting changes in rhythm of my environment... when something sounds slightly off or people are moving in a different pattern... combined with Ti's desire to figure things out that makes me a pretty good at being the first on the scene of something to the point where I'm usually almost done solving it before anyone else realizes that something's wrong




on the other hand, while I can intellectually comprehend Fi, I just don't GET it... it seems spiky and alien to me

Interesting point on Se manifesting in different ways depending on the person. As for the Fi comment. I have the same exact thoughts on Fi as you. Fi is to me something that like you can understand on in a intellectual way but it is something I cannot use at all. It seems from reading above that Fi is something you ether get or don't get as even FJ types seem to not understand Fi. I also have an instinct to rebel against Te and I cannot work with Te as it really tramples on my Ti logic and hence me and TJs tend to not get on as they are annoyed by my Ti and their Te annoys me. I have read that xxFP types rebel against Fe and xxTP types against Te.

 

[miss fortune]

Interesting point on Se manifesting in different ways depending on the person. As for the Fi comment. I have the same exact thoughts on Fi as you. Fi is to me something that like you can understand on in a intellectual way but it is something I cannot use at all. It seems from reading above that Fi is something you ether get or don't get as even FJ types seem to not understand Fi. I also have an instinct to rebel against Te and I cannot work with Te as it really tramples on my Ti logic and hence me and TJs tend to not get on as they are annoyed by my Ti and their Te annoys me. I have read that xxFP types rebel against Fe and xxTP types against Te.

I think that any function can manifest differently depending on the natural predispositions of person with whom it's involved... which is part of why I usually rebel against broad stereotypes of type on here... a stereotype is only looking at one facet of a brilliant cut diamond in a way

grasping Te is actually easier for me than grasping Fi since I tend to test fairly high on Te... it feels wrong to me to have to shut off some of my more natural inclinations to bring about order, but sometimes there are situations where it is necessary... Fi though, with its broken glass spikes and occasional tendencies towards reactiveness... it's like walking through a minefield to deal with strong Fi people to me at times

 

[Lord Lavender]

I think that any function can manifest differently depending on the natural predispositions of person with whom it's involved... which is part of why I usually rebel against broad stereotypes of type on here... a stereotype is only looking at one facet of a brilliant cut diamond in a way

grasping Te is actually easier for me than grasping Fi since I tend to test fairly high on Te... it feels wrong to me to have to shut off some of my more natural inclinations to bring about order, but sometimes there are situations where it is necessary... Fi though, with its broken glass spikes and occasional tendencies towards reactiveness... it's like walking through a minefield to deal with strong Fi people to me at times

For me using Te is like speaking in a foreign language that you are somewhat skilled in. I can use Te effectively at times but at the same time it is unnatural for me to use and isn't something I use on instinct. Using Fi is like trying to speak a language you have zero knowledge of On the other hand Fi users I can find very difficult to deal with as when they are upset they tend to reject my Fe advice (Only unhealthy ones).

The way you speak about Fi users I can relate to. Most of my disagreements have been with Fi users due to me triggering the Fi minefield you speak off. Mind that I can also be hard to get on if am using Ti as when I use Ti I can come across as fussy, pedantic and nit picky. I do however find Fi a very cute function and they can be the sweetest people ever (TJs often surprise me with how sweet and warm they really can be when they use Fi).

I think in general people don't get on over a clash of judging functions rather than perceiving functions, I know that perceiving functions can also cause conflict but in the end it is the perceiving function in combination with the judging function. Below Ill list a list of how each judging function can rub people the wrong way.

Ti- Nit picky, argumentive, insensitive.
Fi- Self-righteous, closed off,
Fe- Fake, controlling, smothering.
Te- Bossy, controlling, aggressive.

 

[miss fortune]

For me using Te is like speaking in a foreign language that you are somewhat skilled in. I can use Te effectively at times but at the same time it is unnatural for me to use and isn't something I use on instinct. Using Fi is like trying to speak a language you have zero knowledge of On the other hand Fi users I can find very difficult to deal with as when they are upset they tend to reject my Fe advice (Only unhealthy ones).

The way you speak about Fi users I can relate to. Most of my disagreements have been with Fi users due to me triggering the Fi minefield you speak off. Mind that I can also be hard to get on if am using Ti as when I use Ti I can come across as fussy, pedantic and nit picky. I do however find Fi a very cute function and they can be the sweetest people ever (TJs often surprise me with how sweet and warm they really can be when they use Fi).

my sister is an ENFP and when we're getting along we have a great time... ExxP energies flying in all directions and conversations skipping from one topic to the next... and then I'll occasionally step on a mine and will be sitting there wondering what happened. usually it's for the mistake of giving Fe based advice, as you mentioned what comes naturally to me is an affront to her values (also a mistake is the tendency to desire to analyze something instead of just listening to her vent... I've learned that if she wants to vent I should just think of something else until she's done)... and I've made those mistakes with many Fi people over the years because metaphorically speaking, I'm a big puppy in a china shop

and your language metaphor there is pretty spot on for how I feel that way

and this totally isn't to say that Fi people aren't awesome in the least... it just confuses me at times as to exactly HOW I messed up

 

[Yama]

Oh yeah haha those are way better

Why don't we just use those and then we don't have pages of walls of texts everytime someone wants to convey their thoughts and they can just be like oh yeah authenticity memory and if someone doesn't know what the person is talking about they can just pop open a dictionary and be like oh yeah I see authenticity memory and then keep talking about something else

Because it boils down to stereotypes real fast because of how much reduction is done. You could always just say "introverted feeling" instead of Fi.

 

[Lord Lavender]

my sister is an ENFP and when we're getting along we have a great time... ExxP energies flying in all directions and conversations skipping from one topic to the next... and then I'll occasionally step on a mine and will be sitting there wondering what happened. usually it's for the mistake of giving Fe based advice, as you mentioned what comes naturally to me is an affront to her values (also a mistake is the tendency to desire to analyze something instead of just listening to her vent... I've learned that if she wants to vent I should just think of something else until she's done)... and I've made those mistakes with many Fi people over the years because metaphorically speaking, I'm a big puppy in a china shop

and your language metaphor there is pretty spot on for how I feel that way

and this totally isn't to say that Fi people aren't awesome in the least... it just confuses me at times as to exactly HOW I messed up

I do like being guided by Fi users as they can help me find my true self so to speak. Many of my problems in life are due to a lack of Fi (I easily get influenced by group morals, try too hard to please others and not knowing how I am feeling). They can offer that guidance. A bit like a fish would guide a land animal on how water works . When I hang out with Fi users they tend to become my moral compass as I use their Fi in a psychic way so to speak (A bit like having someone with a torch with you so you can see in the dark but you don't actually possess it just benefit from it) I have enjoyed talking to you as we have many similarities in the way we relate to Fi.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Because it boils down to stereotypes real fast because of how much reduction is done. You could always just say "introverted feeling" instead of Fi.

I also don't like reducing cognitive functions down to one word as even though making stuff simple is good and even the great Einstein quoted "Any fool can make things more complex. It takes a touch of genius to move it the opposite direction" this is taking things to far to sum them up in one word. I think that overly complicated descriptions show that whoever wrote it doesn't know what they are talking about and makes things complicated to hide that fact however.