[Traditional Enneagram] Which eType is the most Manipulative?

[Mal12345]

But by what definition? What are your criteria? That's my point.

I use general psychology. What do you use?

 

[Tilt]

I use general psychology. What do you use?

Likewise. There are many different tactics and aims for being manipulative.... subtle, overt, well-intentioned, subversive, maintaining power, gaining control, etc.

Like i mean 2s can be very "tit-for-tat", 9s can be very passive-aggressive, etc.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I married a legitimately narcissistic core 3. Just saying.
The unhealthy 3 is a prime example of a toxic manipulator because they get off on putting you down via twisted comparisons of your worth/success vs theirs.

But yes, all types have their own brand of manipulation and even then, it's still not black and white.

 

[Mal12345]

Likewise. There are many different tactics and aims for being manipulative.... subtle, overt, well-intentioned, subversive, maintaining power, gaining control, etc.

Like i mean 2s can be very "tit-for-tat", 9s can be very passive-aggressive, etc.

Every type can be manipulative, but the question is which type is the most manipulative.

 

[Mal12345]

I married a legitimately narcissistic core 3. Just saying.
The unhealthy 3 is a prime example of a toxic manipulator because they get off on putting you down via twisted comparisons of your worth/success vs theirs.

But yes, all types have their own brand of manipulation and even then, it's still not black and white.

People aren't black and white. But types are black and white, and have their own descriptions which serve to distinguish them from other types.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

People aren't black and white. But types are black and white, and have their own descriptions which serve to distinguish them from other types.

I don't see how you can separate the two.

 

[Mal12345]

I don't see how you can separate the two.

I separate them by recognizing that a person is not a type.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I separate them by recognizing that a person is not a type.

Touché.

I still maintain it's too nuanced to classify by type.

 

[Tilt]

Every type can be manipulative, but the question is which type is the most manipulative.

From my personal experiences, e1, e2, e3, e9 but e2 and e3 stick out consistently.

 

[Mal12345]

Touché.

I still maintain it's too nuanced to classify by type.

6w7 is the most manipulative type.

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From my personal experiences, e1, e2, e3, e9 but e2 and e3 stick out consistently.

6w7 is the most manipulative type.

 

[Amargith]

Manipulative people are best described as those who are not struggling within themselves or to better themselves in some spiritual or psychological sense but are only struggling with others to get them to do what they want them to do. The methods of manipulation are either direct or indirect. Direct manipulation consists of using anger, blackmail, or bribery against another person. Indirect manipulating uses deceit such as lies and false promises against another person.

But yes, definitions tend to be black and white because they are definitions. Using definitions in a non-black-and-white sense is often manipulative because it involves some level of deceit. It means you're trying to foist over on someone meanings that change and switch up, an example being "moving the goalposts." Moving the Goalposts

Sure, but im more concerned about incomplete definitions - especially when the lack of nuance can make such a big difference in peoples judgements,justifications and attitudes, which would then in turn be able to cause significant demage when improperly applied.
This definition was ,without the specific stressing of intent, very much incomplete - no offence.

 

[Virtual ghost]

In my opinion 3w2 wins this one.

 

[Mal12345]

Sure, but im more concerned about incomplete definitions - especially when the lack of nuance can make such a big difference in peoples judgements,justifications and attitudes, which would then in turn be able to cause significant demage when improperly applied.
This definition was ,without the specific stressing of intent, very much incomplete - no offence.

Do learning and growth add nuance to the incomplete definition of "manipulate"?

 

[Amargith]

Do learning and growth add nuance to the incomplete definition of "manipulate"?

Yes. (Or if you want to nitpick, the teasing out of this element allows for a more precise, narrow and accurate definition of (deliberate) manipulation.
Especially since so many see manipulation with malicious intent where sheer clumsiness and learning is taking place - often with disastrous self-fullfilling prophesy cobsequences.

 

[Tilt]

6w7 is the most manipulative type.

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6w7 is the most manipulative type.

By your perception. So it just ends up becoming mental masturbation at this point.

 

[Mal12345]

Yes. (Or if you want to nitpick, the teasing out of this element allows for a more precise, narrow and accurate definition of (deliberate) manipulation.
Especially since so many see manipulation with malicious intent where sheer clumsiness and learning is taking place - often with disastrous self-fullfilling prophesy cobsequences.

Last I heard, a proper definition consists of something like the genus and species of the animal kingdom. For example, a "desk" is:
a piece of furniture [genus] with a flat or sloped surface and typically with drawers, at which one can read, write, or do other work [species].
define desk - Google Search

You will find that a definition almost always consists of these two elements.

To manipulate, in the social/psychological sense, means to "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously."

I'm not saying that we can't attach the ideas of learning and growth to the concept of manipulation, but we can also do it with other social/psychological concepts. For example, I can attach the ideas of learning and growth to hate, love, jealousy, pride, etc.

 

[Mal12345]

By your perception. So it just ends up becoming mental masturbation at this point.

The 6w7 is an emotional chameleon. This type will gauge the emotional environment in a room full of people, and then blend in with it, thus manipulating others into believing they are part of the group and belong.

 

[Amargith]

Last I heard, a proper definition consists of something like the genus and species of the animal kingdom. For example, a "desk" is: a piece of furniture [genus] with a flat or sloped surface and typically with drawers, at which one can read, write, or do other work [species]. define desk - Google Search You will find that a definition almost always consists of these two elements. To manipulate, in the social/psychological sense, means to "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously." I'm not saying that we can't attach the ideas of learning and growth to the concept of manipulation, but we can also do it with other social/psychological concepts. For example, I can attach the ideas of learning and growth to hate, love, jealousy, pride, etc.

You want to nitpick about what definitions should or shouldnt have, you can
For all i care, you call it a disclaimer, clarification or sidenote - it was necessary.

Meanwhile, you still owe me an answer in that other thread

 

[Mal12345]

You want to nitpick about what definitions should or shouldnt have, you can
For all i care, you call it a disclaimer, clarification or sidenote - it was necessary.

Meanwhile, you still owe me an answer in that other thread

I just taught you what a definition is. And did I charge anything? No.

 

[Tilt]

Last I heard, a proper definition consists of something like the genus and species of the animal kingdom. For example, a "desk" is:
a piece of furniture [genus] with a flat or sloped surface and typically with drawers, at which one can read, write, or do other work [species].
define desk - Google Search

You will find that a definition almost always consists of these two elements.

To manipulate, in the social/psychological sense, means to "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously."

I'm not saying that we can't attach the ideas of learning and growth to the concept of manipulation, but we can also do it with other social/psychological concepts. For example, I can attach the ideas of learning and growth to hate, love, jealousy, pride, etc.

ahhh although it's often in a negative connotation, the definition can be used in a neutral state. Using the source you provided, look at the word choice closely. It means to "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. "Cleverly" is defined as "In an intelligent, original, or skilful way". Manipulation implies calculation to get to one's end,
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]: is this what you were trying to get at?