What's the difference between a shy extrovert and an introvert?

[/DG/]

Yeah, if I was anything, it'd be inattentive.


In Jungian terms it's easy to see that I am Se dominant. A focus on emergent facts/experiences. At the same time I am pretty laid back I think, reserved maybe. It's funny how Kdude mentioned I reminded him of Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu. He is supposedly esfp and laid back. I was reading this thing about inferior functions. An esfp's inferior function is Ni which supposedly results in an undeveloped love of mysticism and so forth.

Lucky Kwai Chang Caine didn't know that.

Boom. Done. Dominant Se = extraversion. Unless... you only feel this way some of the time. I love Se also, but I rarely get my self going enough to actually enjoy it. I'm usually in my head. It's also important to realize that E/I is a spectrum. Perhaps you lie more towards the middle.

 

[garbage]

Couldn't someone just.. I don't know, have a focus on the external world without necessarily being talkative or comfortable in social situations?

 

[strychnine]

Couldn't someone just.. I don't know, have a focus on the external world without necessarily being talkative or comfortable in social situations?

Yes... hence the difference between cognitive and social extraversion right?

 

[Chiharu]

Introverts are happiest when being introverts. The outside world is taxing rather than invigorating.
Shy extraverts want to act more extraverted.

 

[lunalum]

from experience, shy extravert is much happier when she begins to act like an extravert, even if it makes her a little anxious.
also shy extravert is motivated by the external world, even if she doesn't appear to engage much.

Introverts are happiest when being introverts. The outside world is taxing rather than invigorating. Shy extraverts want to act more extraverted.

This is important to remember. Introversion is not shyness, but shy extroverts can confuse themselves as introverts because they have a social anxiety which makes interaction unpleasant, and so they avoid it.

And to take this even further, I think that a shy extravert can begin to forget their shyness after a while and kind of live as a faux-introvert, because if they just give up on interacting with the world so much, then there is no opportunity to be shy. So then after a while this theoretical person appears as a legitimate introvert: the introverted auxillary is heavily relied on so that it becomes the strongest (and so appears dominant), and ways are found to better enjoy the all the alone time. Interactions with the outside start to seem "draining" but it is really more of a nervousness with the unfamiliarity of it.

But there is still something that seems off. I remember several years back, when I first "tested" as INTP, and I asked someone if I could just be a reclusive E, and the response I got was something like "I think you are an extravert in your head." I dismissed that as her poking fun at me, forgot about it, and went on to become INTP posterchild until just recently. But I think it's an interesting description now and may be an accurate one for shy ENxPs.

extraverts focus more on external world, introverts focus more on internal world. jungian extraversion has nothing to do with extroversion as general terms, its simply about where the focus is aimed, and focus is aimed to that direction because thats where the person gets energy from.

neurological difference between extraverts and introverts is that extraverts have less idle activity, so they need to seek something to activate their brains from external world or they get bored

I think the varying definitions like this make things tricky. Like, my theory is that a shy extravert can focus on their internal world a lot, but they just don't get energy from it. Neurologically, the difference is more clear. I seem to be a biological extravert by that definition even if I am focused internally a lot.

The e/i doesnt really matter anyhow right? Its the order of the functions.

But sometimes even the function order is tricky, because of the above, and because even now I appear to be Ne=Ti Si=Fe

i actually am not very much a fan of initiating contact with others but once i am friends with others i do tend to initiate projects / games / etc. i like when people initiate contact with me, but that doesn't necessarily mean i want to talk to them for very long. same thing as before... i just have a high social stimulation need/tolerance. it doesn't extend into the realms of me (a) not needing solitude or (b) liking everyone.

I'm the same way. This is why I am confused by the whole initiating vs. responding metric. By this standard, a shy extravert should be an impossibility, but I don't think this is the case.

I/E is about the focus of your mind. The "roles" of your cognitive processes can clue you into what is dominant. The aux function is usually supportive of the focus of the dom function....for example, in a recent Fi thread, there was some discussion of how Fi in the aux position is more people-focused than a Fi-dom's Fi. This is because it's supporting extroverted aims. It helps determine meaning & value in an external context as viewed through a Pe mindset. Pe in the aux position instead gives a context to & finds a fit in the external world for the internal valuations of Fi, which means mental concepts of the ideal are often focused on over literal people. Think about this in terms of any type & you'll be able to "see" the focus of people despite their social demeanors.

I would like to see how this would translate into other types. What are the "focuses" of the other functions?

People who immediately react or take charge are extroverts?

This is interesting as well. For small crises I am more inert and observing, but in a huge crisis I am the opposite: frantic, jumping to action, very in-motion, desperately driven to solve it whatever way I can. But how much of this is I vs. E and how much is simply a biological reaction to stress?

 

[INTP]

I think the varying definitions like this make things tricky. Like, my theory is that a shy extravert can focus on their internal world a lot, but they just don't get energy from it. Neurologically, the difference is more clear. I seem to be a biological extravert by that definition even if I am focused internally a lot.

every human can focus on their internal world much, but because extraverts doesent gain energy from that, it feels more exhausting that what it does to introvert. but introverts do their internal focus differently from other introverted types, like ISTJ does it differently from ISTP, because ISTJ uses Si and Fi for internal focus and ISTP uses Ti and Ni for their internal focus.

and about that tricky thing, yes its true that human mind is bit tricky. that idle activity thing is what it looks like from neuroscientists point of view and other is jungian explanation(or could almost say its a metaphor for the real thing) for it. its good to understand bit of both if you want to understand more of the human mind thing and not just try to vaguely look at human mind from the "metaphor" point of view

 

[OrangeAppled]

I would like to see how this would translate into other types. What are the "focuses" of the other functions?

Basically, the concept is that the aux function supports the aims of the dom function. Extroverts seek to affect the external & so their aux function can seem to have "extroverted purposes", if that makes sense. Introverts' aux function likewise takes on introverted purposes, such as to enrich their inner world of judgments or perceptions. This is why the aux function is often referred to as having a "creative" role, but that creativity is aimed at the dom function's focus.

These ideas are ones I've taken from various authors & MBTI experts who detail "roles" of functions for each type. My understanding of it is something like this:

In the case of JiPe & PeJi types....
JiPe types focus on perfecting a concept (which amounts to a judgment/conclusion) & use their perceptions to aid that. EXAMPLE: This means that INTPs use their Ne to find connections between external concepts & their internal framework, and they do this to perfect their internal framework, to consider the far-fetched in case it's actually right. No wonder the stereotypical jobs for them are mad scientists and reclusive theorists . They have far less focus than ENTPs on affecting other people & the external environment.

PeJi types focus on pursuing their ideas/perceptions in external reality, and they use their judgments to support those pursuits. This means that ENTPs seek to affect other people/the external world with their ideas & they use their Ti logic to convince others or to explain an idea; for example, they might want to make a seemingly far-fetched idea a logically accepted reality. And so the stereotypical jobs for them are lawyers & comedians . Just as I see ExFPs as having a "Fe-flavor" in their demeanor, ENTPs seem to have a Te-flavor. You'd never, ever confuse them with a Te-dom, but it's in the way they seek to affect others with their logical reasoning, wanting it to be accepted in order to further some idea they are pursuing. ExFPs also seek to affect other people more via their feelings & emotions, sort of like Fe types do, but in a very different way.

In the case of PiJe & JePi types....(and since I am not Pi + Je, this is harder for me to explain)

PiJe types focus on pursuing internal perceptions & the ideas they lead to, & they use their judgments to sort of weed out the less important perceptions (in the way Ji perfects concepts or the JiPe type's line of reasoning, PiJe types sort of "perfect" their perceptions by narrowing them down). EXAMPLE: This means that an ISFJ's impressions, or their Si "storehouse", is very much influenced by what they have decided is valuable in relation to others. This is why they are associated with being very intune with the needs of people important to them; they prefer to review the impressions they've formed regarding people & situations they have deemed most significant. This is partly why even though Si is highly idiosyncratic, forming very individual, subjective impressions of reality, they can seem very "homogenous" on the outside. They use external measures to gauge the significance/logic of their own impressions. When you get to know one well, then you realize what a massive individual bias there is in their perceptions & how this is really what is leading.

JePi types focus on perfecting external structures & use their internal perceptions to help build these. The ESFJ is focused on perfecting the harmony of the people & the environment and uses internal perceptions to recall what has & has not worked in the past, so that the external structure can further be refined. Again, the extrovert seeks to affect others. JePi people are very "production-oriented" in a sense. Where PiJe judgment weeds out lesser perceptions, JePi doesn't bother with pursuing ideas mentally that don't further developing their external structures. They're not building an internal storehouse the way ISFJs are; their perceptions are being sourced to build something that involves harmonious relationships or logical benefits in the real world.

They seem like subtle distinctions at times, but it has an impact on how personality appears. That's why the E/I difference goes beyond where you get your mental energy, but affects your whole mindset.

 

[Glycerine]

I am a "shy" extrovert. I like being around people to energize me but we don't always have to engage. I am outgoing but also have a cat like personality. If that makes any sense.

 

[Little Linguist]

Haven't read all the replies, but I'm inclined to say that as a youngster, I thought I was an introvert because I was way shy. However, as opposed to introverts, it really BOTHERED me and drained me that I didn't have friends, couldn't relate to people, didn't belong anywhere. I don't think introverts mind as much. But it weighed on me like a ton of bricks. And when I finally became more outgoing, which was a learned trait (as opposed to extravert/introvert, which I don't think you can 'learn' really) I felt much more happy and comfy.

 

[lunalum]

Basically, the concept is that the aux function supports the aims of the dom function. Extroverts seek to affect the external & so their aux function can seem to have "extroverted purposes", if that makes sense. Introverts' aux function likewise takes on introverted purposes, such as to enrich their inner world of judgments or perceptions. This is why the aux function is often referred to as having a "creative" role, but that creativity is aimed at the dom function's focus.

These ideas are ones I've taken from various authors & MBTI experts who detail "roles" of functions for each type. My understanding of it is something like this:

In the case of JiPe & PeJi types....
JiPe types focus on perfecting a concept (which amounts to a judgment/conclusion) & use their perceptions to aid that. EXAMPLE: This means that INTPs use their Ne to find connections between external concepts & their internal framework, and they do this to perfect their internal framework, to consider the far-fetched in case it's actually right. No wonder the stereotypical jobs for them are mad scientists and reclusive theorists . They have far less focus than ENTPs on affecting other people & the external environment.

PeJi types focus on pursuing their ideas/perceptions in external reality, and they use their judgments to support those pursuits. This means that ENTPs seek to affect other people/the external world with their ideas & they use their Ti logic to convince others or to explain an idea; for example, they might want to make a seemingly far-fetched idea a logically accepted reality. And so the stereotypical jobs for them are lawyers & comedians . Just as I see ExFPs as having a "Fe-flavor" in their demeanor, ENTPs seem to have a Te-flavor. You'd never, ever confuse them with a Te-dom, but it's in the way they seek to affect others with their logical reasoning, wanting it to be accepted in order to further some idea they are pursuing. ExFPs also seek to affect other people more via their feelings & emotions, sort of like Fe types do, but in a very different way.

So, Mad Scientist Seeking World Domination= INTP or ENTP? Science has a huge impact on the world, and law can be kind of, umm, restrictive... But I know you are talking about very general cliches though, so your illustration of focus still works excellently, and probably places me in the NeTi category....

Haven't read all the replies, but I'm inclined to say that as a youngster, I thought I was an introvert because I was way shy. However, as opposed to introverts, it really BOTHERED me and drained me that I didn't have friends, couldn't relate to people, didn't belong anywhere. I don't think introverts mind as much. But it weighed on me like a ton of bricks. And when I finally became more outgoing, which was a learned trait (as opposed to extravert/introvert, which I don't think you can 'learn' really) I felt much more happy and comfy.

I'm beginning to think that this happiness is the best measure of the difference between the two, but it may be easier to neglect that little detail for quite a while (perhaps as a T). Like "Oh I'm so cool that I don't need anyone and don't fit in anywhere.... I'm not 'happy' in my isolation? What does that have to do with anything?"

 

[wolfy]

I was reflecting on how what others see as shyness is me checking in on myself.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

An old rugby thread made me think of all this again...

I feel like I want to engage and need to. I also tend to get more and more energy in situations I enjoy. I was curious about it because I was fairly shy as a teenager and in my early twenties. Not so much now but still there is some shyness I think.

I don't really get the difference between external and internal preference. It feels like I prefer external.

You know... as I get older, I find myself more extroverted-like. Really, this has been a development in only the last year and a half.

I still very much consider myself an introvert and an ISFP... as for most of my life, I had more internal dialogue than external. And I was always very much in my own head. And found it difficult to speak my ideas, nor did I have the desire to do so. But being a feeler, I also had the desire to be accepted and liked, and therefore wanted to be around people. But just wasn't very good at it for a very long time. But regardless, I could keep myself well stimulated internally or mentally. I'd stay up for hours, through the night, just thinking or drawing, etc.

Now that I'm older, I'm much better with people. And though I can often find hanging out with friends quite fun and stimulating. Day after day of doing this, I can find it incredibly draining, and want to go into hiding for a little bit. I feel as though I think best when I'm by myself, and I feel most myself when by... myself. When constantly engaged externally, I can tend to feel a little lost after a while. So, I know Fi is certainly my true core. But I seem to desire the internal and external world at the same time.

They always say ISFP's are some of the most extroverted of the introverts. I think it's a combination of being a feeler (and feelers are people oriented) and an extroverted sensor. I think a lot of ISFP's confuse their selves as extroverts due to this. We often want to be where the action is.

Another way to figure this out, perhaps, is to gauge if you're Te or Ni is stronger. Do you feel as though you use a good bit of Se + Te or Fi + Ni ?

Also, most ESFP's I know... don't... ever... stop... talking.

Or maybe you're just well balanced on E/I.

I don't know if there's such a harsh line between introverts and extroverts as we like to think. There are some people who are pretty extreme in one way or another, but not everyone is like that. I consider myself pretty close on introversion/extroversion too. Sometimes people and external events really energize me, sometimes they really drain me and I just want to nap.

That's about how I am, too. If there's a lot of things going on that can well stimulate Se... than yes... I can get pretty energized.

But the same is true if I can find a lot to stimulate Fi.

 

[Walking Tourist]

Much to the consternation on my father, that is true of me: Also, most ESFP's I know... don't... ever... stop... talking.
In the past few years, I have discovered that I seem to have this need to talk incessantly. Even when I'm alone, I want to talk.
So I made a rule for myself that, when I talk to myself, it has to be in Spanish.
When I went to Ecuador, I stayed with a family in Quito. And I chattered incessantly and happily. My Quito family was very happy about that. They said that being a motormouth was a good trait for a language student. I (re)learned Spanish very quickly because I talk all of the time.
(But I think that I listen, too, and, even occasionally, can stop talking or singing or making other sounds...)

 

[wolfy]

You know... as I get older, I find myself more extroverted-like. Really, this has been a development in only the last year and a half.

I still very much consider myself an introvert and an ISFP... as for most of my life, I had more internal dialogue than external. And I was always very much in my own head. And found it difficult to speak my ideas, nor did I have the desire to do so. But being a feeler, I also had the desire to be accepted and liked, and therefore wanted to be around people. But just wasn't very good at it for a very long time. But regardless, I could keep myself well stimulated internally or mentally. I'd stay up for hours, through the night, just thinking or drawing, etc.

Now that I'm older, I'm much better with people. And though I can often find hanging out with friends quite fun and stimulating. Day after day of doing this, I can find it incredibly draining, and want to go into hiding for a little bit. I feel as though I think best when I'm by myself, and I feel most myself when by... myself. When constantly engaged externally, I can tend to feel a little lost after a while. So, I know Fi is certainly my true core. But I seem to desire the internal and external world at the same time.

They always say ISFP's are some of the most extroverted of the introverts. I think it's a combination of being a feeler (and feelers are people oriented) and an extroverted sensor. I think a lot of ISFP's confuse their selves as extroverts due to this. We often want to be where the action is.

Another way to figure this out, perhaps, is to gauge if you're Te or Ni is stronger. Do you feel as though you use a good bit of Se + Te or Fi + Ni ?

Also, most ESFP's I know... don't... ever... stop... talking.

Or maybe you're just well balanced on E/I.


That's about how I am, too. If there's a lot of things going on that can well stimulate Se... than yes... I can get pretty energized.

But the same is true if I can find a lot to stimulate Fi.

That's pretty interesting and sounds like me for the most part. I am pretty comfortable with silence. I just want to be engaged in action or in a situation. I think I am Fi first because of the way I build in my mind and work out from that a lot. If that makes sense. I don't really find it draining to be with people but I tend to hang around with people who don't talk all the time.

 

[prplchknz]

it's interesting cuz I'll have periods where I'm totally energized by people than periods where I just want to stab them in the face and say good night. And it's not consistent. but yeah I'm a sometimes shy introvert I've decided.

 

[Quinlan]

I am envious of the so called extraverted ISFPs.

 

[wolfy]

it's interesting cuz I'll have periods where I'm totally energized by people than periods where I just want to stab them in the face and say good night. And it's not consistent. but yeah I'm a sometimes shy introvert I've decided.

Stabbing in the face seems like slight overkill. And a sweet good night seems ironic. I'm sure you'd get peace and quiet though... until the sirens pierced your slumber.

I am envious of the so called extraverted ISFPs.

Yeah? It takes time.

 

[prplchknz]

fine, ok, punch them in the face? oooh those sirens, not the ones that lure sailors to their death. right because facing stabbing is illegal.

 

[ajblaise]

A shy extrovert has self-confidence issues or low self-esteem. I remember reading about study or something that said 9/10 of the people who see a physician for social anxiety are introverts, which I think makes sense, and the 10% of extroverts with social anxiety are the ones with the unhealthy internal issues.

 

[strychnine]

Wow I really relate to the other ISFPs here. Also, I can converse with people or do active things for about 5-6 hours at once, without feeling any energy drain... but then I'll hit a wall, and at that point, I feel like I can't even move or speak anymore, I'm so tired. So...I don't know, lol. Recovery once I've hit the wall phase takes a few days.