• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

What is truth? Isd reality more fact or opinion?

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
Truth and belief come close to being the same thing. The difference is that when you say you believe something, you imply that you have some doubt, and when you say something is true, you indicate that you have no doubt.

As for whether reality is fact or opinion, it is certainly fact. An opinion reality would be an oxymoron.

Polaris wrote, (1) "Truth and belief come close to being the same thing."


I believe in universal laws of physics determined by objective facts. On the other hand what I think, feel, and believe are merely opinion. They are two separate things.

(2) "...when you say you believe something, you imply that you have some doubt, and when you say something is true, you indicate that you have no doubt."



I assuredly do agree
 

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
This reminds me of the Allegory of the cave in that what we discern as truth is merely the shadows we perceive of a truth we cannot fathom by mere perception. It can only make sense in that the finite nature of what we are biologically, in size, where we are, and all other factors contribute to the limits of what we can discern as truth both in line and in avoidant of theorems.

Plato's allegory is a favorite along with his philosopher kings. I have my own analogy. We are all part of a giant crystal or diamond. Call it the eye of Odin. Perhaps one could call it Odin's eye, or the eye of God. We need to pool our resources and capabilities into a cohesive whole and on the way getting rid of distortions, which we all have. None of us can see the Truth. We can catch only glimmers of it out of the corner of our eye. We need to cut away at illogical untruth. This will require communication and active listening skills.

This is my own metaphor;
“We are all part of a giant crystal or diamond. Call it the eye of Odin. Perhaps one could call it Odin's eye, or the eye of God. We need to pool our resources and capabilities into a cohesive whole and on the way getting rid of distortions, which we all have. None of us can see the Truth. We can catch only glimmers of it out of the corner of our eye. We need to cut away at illogical untruth. Each of us is different with different capabilities as well some different attributes & a different life mission. It is all part of a whole.

People live in different perceptual realities and live by different truths. Obviously not everyone can be right. In fact no one is totally right. This is why we fight instead of listening to each other and both honoring and respecting other people's truths. Listen to their element of truth, reflect, mutual problem solving, and correcting the unreasonableness from our side as well as their own. Perhaps the most successful will be those they can see other people's world view and synchronize. But one must know self, first or at the very least a preliminary knowledge of our self. For myself I wish to be a free man. Free of illusion and distortion.”
 
Last edited:

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
The perception of truth is dependent less upon the mind, than upon the heart.


The two need to be in balance, both reason (critical thinking) and empathy communication skills and active listening skills). One without the other, one is crippled. All manner of unspeakable horror has been committed in the name of love and doing what's best for indigenous populations. The heart and emotion can be fooled by emotional reasoning. One of the 10 cognitive distortions of CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy).
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,299
A particular truth can be determined by measurement. The truth of Quantum Mechanics can be determined to ten decimal places which makes it very by 10 times likely to be true. Yet with our minds set in our middle sized world, we can't imagine Quantum Mechanics. but we can describe it accurately with mathematics.

And as photosynthesis depends on Quantum Mechanics to work, almost all life on Earth depends on photosynthesis and Quantum Mechanics.
 

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
I think this is really a question of semantics, I meant simply that they imply different things, but let's do some semantics, shall we? Here's how I would define the four things.

Truth: This is an abstract notion, mainly I agree with how Plato defined it, as the ultimate reality. It is not whether or not something specific is "true" but rather, the abstract notion of truth.

Reality: This is what we experience in our day to day lives. It's a collective sensory experience because we generally perceive the same things in our day to day lives, as human beings. This concerns experience. It is what we experience in a general sense, not anything specific to be experienced.

Fact: This is what has been proven to be real (notice I didn't say "true"), through evidence and reason. A fact is a specific occurence, or segment of what I more broadly call reality. In other words, it is an event that can be experienced, whereas reality is the whole extent of events that can be experienced.

Opinion: This basically when you say green is the best color or that industrial music is better than techno: there is nothing objective about opinion, I would define opinion as an expression of preference.

Again, that is how, philosophically I would define these things, but I think there are more interesting things to be pondered and solved, from the standpoint of philosophy, than semantics, since everyone might define these terms a bit differently.


Via Typh0n wrote, (1) "Truth: This..an abstract notion...I agree with how Plato defined it, as the ultimate reality."


I happen to like Plato's allegory of the cave. We as a species can not see the whole truth. We can only see slivers and angles ot truth and reality based on our limited perceptions. Truth is always unfolding before us as more and more data is discovered by science. What many view as truth is merely perceptions and opinions. For one to say, "I think, feel or believe this to be true," is in fact employing emotional reasoning. I feel it, ergo it is the truth.

This irrespective of your belief having not been proven by science and science methodology. Even in science we start with a hypothesis and take it for granted as truth. Only with new discoveries do we find the error of our ways. It is a main reason I favor science over religion. Science grows over time as new developments arise. Religion stipulates original hypothesis to explain the natural order of things and is inflexible in changing its belief despite overwhelming evidence in contrast.

(2) "Reality: This is what we experience in our day to day lives. It's a collective sensory experience because we generally perceive the same things in our day to day lives, as human beings.

This is experiential learning. We are a product of the nature and nurture paradigm. It is life's experiences, provided we are open minded and amiable enough to learning new lessons through insight and reflection, that we can grow. We expand our understanding of ourselves, others and the reality we live in.


(3) "Fact: This is what has been proven to be real (notice I didn't say "true"), through evidence and reason." and "...fact is ... what I more broadly call reality."


I concur. To me the only reliable truths are not opinions or beliefs but hard objective facts proven and replicated by science.


(4) "Opinion...there is nothing objective about opinion..."

I again concur. Alas wars are fought over ideological beliefs. They are in a metaphorical and philosophical sense illusions. We believe in certain things not substantiated by science and are prepared to go to war over what amounts to differences of opinion in the form of beliefs. We delude ourselves in doing so.
 

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
“They say that we live in a world of illusions as well as delusions. I think it is a mixture. Half the Real world is within. As well as half of the Real being external. To me the inner universe phenomenological landscape is based on what I think, feel and believe. The internal world is more ideal. Our external world is composed of objective facts. It is what we can see, hear, touch, smell and taste. It is much more concrete. I happen to like Plato's allegory of the cave. We as a species can not see the whole truth. We can only see slivers and angles of truth and reality based on our limited perceptions.

Truth is always unfolding before us as more and more data is discovered by science. What many view as truth is merely perceptions and opinions. For one to say, "I think, feel or believe this to be true," is in fact employing emotional reasoning. I feel it, ergo it is the truth. This irrespective of your belief having not been proven by science and science methodology. Even in science we start with a hypothesis and take it for granted as truth. Only with new discoveries do we find the error of our ways. It is a main reason I favor science over religion.

Science grows over time as new developments arise. Religion stipulates original hypothesis to explain the natural order of things and is inflexible in changing its belief despite overwhelming evidence in contrast.
In life we learn through experiential learning. We are a product of the nature and nurture paradigm. It is life's experiences, provided we are open minded and amiable enough to learning new lessons through insight and reflection, that we can grow.

We expand our understanding of ourselves, others and the reality we live in. To me the only reliable truths are not opinions or beliefs but hard objective facts proven and replicated by science. Alas wars are fought over ideological beliefs. They are in a metaphorical and philosophical sense illusions. We believe in certain things not substantiated by science and are prepared to go to war over what amounts to differences of opinion in the form of beliefs. We delude ourselves in doing so. To move along our path we must learn to walk the middle path. The road called the Shining One and that is balance. It is true we live in a world of partial illusions.

The answers lie within. Seek and ye shall understand. Look inward for the truth and you shall find it. There are real truths in the external world as well. We need the basic items to find basic comfort and security as well as a modicum of happiness. But to search the external world exclusively for happiness is a fool's dream. You will die searching because you never discovered yourself. That is the inner world. The path of self discovery and finding out what you truly wish for and that is to be complete. There are many paths to achieve this. No one person can tell another how to live.

That must come from inside. Learn to trust yourself. Learn to heed that inner voice as long as it is founded on virtue and not lies and self deception. How does one divine the truth? Do not hurt. Do not kill. Do not hurt another.
Using Plato’s allegory it is like we are in a cave. What we think we see is only a shadow of truth and in effect almost illusion. We hunt and seek the shadows always striving to find the entrance to the cave and see reality clearly in its entirety. We are searching for the brilliance of truth.

We are all part of a giant crystal or diamond. Call it the eye of Odin, Odin's eye or God's eyes. We need to pool our resources and capabilities into a cohesive whole in order getting rid of distortions, which we all have. None of us can see the Truth. We can catch glimmers of it out only of the corner of our eye. It is as if the life mission to cut away at illogical untruth. Each of us is different with different capabilities, as well as different attributes & a different life mission.
It is all part of the whole. Perhaps the most successful will be those they can see other people's world view and synchronize. But one must know self-first or at least a preliminary knowledge.”
 

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
Only when we see a multitude of perspectives, may truth be closer seen.

Via Calm wrote (1) " Only when we see a multitude of perspectives, may truth be closer seen."

I am agreeable. For this to transpire we must override our egos, communicate and practice active listening skills in dialogue. This is my analogy: Using Plato’s allegory it is like we are in a cave. What we think we see is only a shadow of truth and in effect almost illusion. We hunt and seek the shadows always striving to find the entrance to the cave and see reality clearly in its entirety. We are searching for the brilliance of truth.

We are all part of a giant crystal or diamond. Call it the eye of Odin, Odin's eye or God's eyes. We need to pool our resources and capabilities into a cohesive whole in order getting rid of distortions, which we all have. None of us can see the Truth. We can catch glimmers of it out only of the corner of our eye. It is as if the life mission to cut away at illogical untruth. Each of us is different with different capabilities, as well as different attributes & a different life mission. It is all part of the whole. Perhaps the most successful will be those they can see other people's world view and synchronize. But one must know self-first or at least a preliminary knowledge.”
 

Nomendei

Elegance of chaos
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Messages
654
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Truth. Thinking about it, I imagine two types of truth. Factual truth and perspective truth.
Factual truth is what happened on an omnipotent view. It’s the position of an exact atom at a precise time. What happened despite our believes and our perceptions of this reality.
Perspective truth is what each of us consider as true. Our beliefs, our knowledge.
 

lightsun

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
827
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9
"When one attains a higher Truth, one transcends pettiness and the ego. They transcend the written word because the higher words are written in one's hearts. All scripture are a stepping stone to realize the truth that is already in you. One needs learn to listen to that inner voice which is the voice of the Collective Unconscious of the Universe. We resonate. The truth is engraved upon our hearts. We just have to listen to that secret wisdom. You and I have in effect the same book in our souls." LightSun


"There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragments by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cell by cell like a laboring mosaic." Anais Nin

"Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surrounds it, it shines clear." Gandhi

"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend." Henri Bergson
 

draon9

Active member
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,152
MBTI Type
Enfj
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so
Truth is reality,it is something that none of us can truly hide from,we can deny the truth,but it will always be there
 

The Cat

I'm from Outer Space...Dont Overthink it.
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
18,372
Truth is stranger than fiction; and reality just doesn't care about opinion. :shrug:
 

Tomb1

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
842
I've no clue how reality appears on LSD.

(That was my first impression of the title...realz)
 

Scaven

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
62
MBTI Type
ENTP
I believe truth to be abstract. Truth is what is accepted to be reality. Thus, In my perception of truth, if you are the only one knowing a fact and lie about it, the lie becomes truth until the factual truth is revealed.
 

Kanra Jest

Av'ent'Gar'de ~
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
2,389
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Truth has no truth because it's always subjective. At least nothing we can perceive. For all we know we're in the Matrix.
 
Top