What is the hardest thing about being a man?

[Lark]

I'll be honest that I think being a man is pretty good to be honest.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Men also face legal challenges in court systems with many men losing rights to their children due to women automatically getting the kids plus why is there far more funding to women's diseases than mens diseases?.

 

[Mole]

The feminised view of what is hardest about being a man is misleading, because almost no women know in their bone marrow that they may be called into battle.

And this is in the background of minds of many is not most men. And we wonder how we will measure up. And many of our activities in life are training for and preparation for the possibility of going into battle.

This gives men a dignity, that is denied women.

 

[Yara the Corpse]

Being called a man in the first place, and being associated with half the people on this earth.

See, its just ... a bit odd when Im having a normal casual conversation with someone and then they ask me about guy things, as Ive my entire life just felt like a human. Its just one of those things that I never think about, being a male, but when its brought up Im like: "Oh... yeah I guess thats a thing... "

But then again ive struggled with identity my entire life, its so weird being male... and I think it woulda been better for me to be a females because of how passive and receptive rather than assertive I am: for ease of dating. I wouldnt mind being male if I had the qualities necessary to survive and fend for myself, but holy shit. Also I hate being conditioned to wear shitty clothing, males have the worst fucking fashion, honestly only look good when I'm in sweatpants and casual t-shirt and a hoodie sometimes, cus try hard male clothing is just not satisfying and I feel disgusted with myself if I wear good quality male clothing, Idk why, except that I dont wanna display my maleness through acceptance of expensive wear of my gender. I think I'd rather display how apathetic I am towards my gender by trying to not even fucking bother with my dress. Oh and thats another thing, I feel compelled/conditioned to be apathetic and quiet and cool-headed as a male... but I think if i were female id be a lot more openly emotional. Fe is my weak point and is pretty much something ive struggled to use my entire life... as im easily conditioned by those who know me to be a certain way, which means that my gender is also hurting me as thats how others approach and talk to me, as a male.

 

[Mole]

its so weird being male... and I think it woulda been better for me to be a females because of how passive and receptive rather than assertive I am: for ease of dating.

This is brilliantly politically correct. Imagine if we were saying how weird it is being a Jew, and it woulda been better for me to be a goy. Or if we were saying how weird it is being black and how it woulda been better to be white. But instead we choose politically correct route of saying how weird it is being a male, knowing that it is politically correct to insult and offend men.

 

[anticlimatic]

Being ultimately responsible for everything.

 

[FemMecha]

As far as I see, it doesn't seem like he's calling for a narrow ideal of men, just that they strive for self-sufficiency and strength. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what he wrote.

I don't see why the strengths you mention must be mutually exclusive from what he is talking about. Perhaps you're evincing some of your own bias in assuming the man writing poetry or working with pre schoolers is somehow less masculine than the man chopping wood and fixing harleys.

Society ought to allow for a broader definition or scope of masculinity rather than defining it as a narrow and often toxic thing. Within that broad scope, I don't see why encouraging self-sufficiency and strenght is a bad thing. I also think those are states that could be strived for by women coming to comfortable terms with their femininity.

I'm not saying people should be told "you're on your own, suck it up and never ask for help," but encouraging the exact opposite is going to create a lot of really helpless people who will eventually have no one to turn to and not have any way to pull themselves up. They could end up without friends or family, or the gov't could collapse, or who knows what else.

YOu could be right and that would be great. I'm all for it.

I was basing my response off of the macho traditional man - the soldier, the cop, the cowboy. So, if that was incorrect, then it's good to clear it up.

 

[entropie]

woman

 

[Mole]

On D-Day, no woman stormed the beaches of Normandy. If we relied on women, Europe would still be under occupation.

 

[Zarathustra]

That we can't honestly answer this question

 

[Litsnob]

I like this line of reasoning and feel similarly. I was having a conversation with a coworker the other day about the Pussyhats Project and anti-Trump rallies and she felt incredulous about what andocentric oppression or institutional misogyny exactly is everyone up in arms about. From her perspective, her entire hospital floor was run by female nurses (and most of the building, for that matter) and a majority of the male doctors heavily rely on their nurse's reports, dosage calculations, and managing their patient loads in general. This viewpoint really struck me, not only because it came from someone I know to be a feminist, but because it helped me see a classic case of how men and women rely on each other. This is a very specific context, though, so it's probably not fair or accurate to assume female autonomy in one industry is reflective of the gender as a whole. In contrast, there's a male music teacher at one of the preschools I have a client at that has his own share of somewhat amorphous challenges. He's a very passive person, overly accommodating to his female coworkers, and I'd best describe his personality as 'water,' or even self-sacrificing. While he's uncomplaining at work, the management and older teachers have little respect for him precisely because his nature isn't gender-typical. I struck up an easy friendship with him in part because I can sympathize with being a lone male in another female-dominated industry and go out of my way to chat with him out of some feeling of solidarity whenever I visit. The most puzzling part is that he's happily married with 3 girls and another on the way and the kids love him at the school, so from my perspective it's a strange irony that a very decent person is so unappreciated. I suppose the thread of my argument is that people just need to learn to stick up for themselves, just like the march against Trump. I agree, it's clear that gender boundaries are becoming more fluid - the mob mentalities of marches aside - and it'll take women and men equal parts to decide what of masculinity and how feminine each can be in equanimity.

You have some interesting points and anecdotes-thanks for sharing them. It's interesting that in the hospital scenario the demographic is still predominantly nurses as female and doctors as male. Although that is shifting I wonder how long it will take, if ever, for it to become more balanced. I know more female doctors than male nurses and suspect that is because in our culture it is more acceptable for females to seem a bit masculine than for males to seem a bit feminine. I think this is what you are getting at with your story about the music teacher. We have that male/female stereotyping in the MBTI types too. And there are squabbles within gender groups-the you aren't a real feminist because you stayed home with your children attitude comes to mind.

Conclusion: Humans are a mess and will always be a work in progress.

 

[Zarathustra]

The incongruence between what we're told and what is actually the case

 

[Abendrot]

But can't the concept be broadened? It's fine for some people to develop into the traditional ideal, but what about men who have other strengths? This includes artistic strengths, emotional insight and sensitivity strengths, intellectual strengths? What about the man who is gifted at working with pre-schoolers or writes poetry? What I dislike about gender stereotypes is that they are exclusionary by nature. Honor and goodness can take many forms.

I don't see any of the strengths you mentioned as being incompatible with masculinity. I think this is because the idea of masculinity has been derided, misrepresented, and pigeonholed into being the image of an unthinking and lecherous brute. Consider for example, the great art and culture produced in the 18th and 19th centuries, when gender roles were much more rigid than they are now. In my view, being achievement oriented (including artistic achievement) is more of a masculine trait. I am not suggesting that women cannot achieve things, but rather that innate priorities tend to differ. A masculine man can also be sensitive and emotional, but they should not allow that to compromise self-mastery.

I think about the life of my brother who is similar to me in many ways, and he has suffered a great deal. First as a child he was bullied by other boys, even teachers. He is intellectually brilliant, but he can seem vulnerable. He is more honorable than most men I've ever known, and yet his emotionally vulnerability has been treated as a crime. I can personally think of far worse crimes of harm, meanness, even arrogance, that can manage to fall under the umbrella of the masculine ideal, sometimes even considered 'honorable'.

I have never once dated or married a man who falls into the traditional stereotype of the masculine ideal. I don't share it as an ideal personally. It's fine for other individuals to have that ideal, but the problem is imposing it on everyone.

I realize that imposing the masculine ideal on everyone will create a lot of problems, and that there are men who cannot and do not want to fall in line with the masculine ideal. Imposing masculinity on such men should be avoided if possible, as it will not yield good results, only suffering. I am not suggesting a revival of a Spartan society. It is merely my observation that the Western world needs more masculinity right now.

 

[Abendrot]

As far as I see, it doesn't seem like he's calling for a narrow ideal of men, just that they strive for self-sufficiency and strength. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what he wrote.

I don't see why the strengths you mention must be mutually exclusive from what he is talking about. Perhaps you're evincing some of your own bias in assuming the man writing poetry or working with pre schoolers is somehow less masculine than the man chopping wood and fixing harleys.

Society ought to allow for a broader definition or scope of masculinity rather than defining it as a narrow and often toxic thing. Within that broad scope, I don't see why encouraging self-sufficiency and strenght is a bad thing. I also think those are states that could be strived for by women coming to comfortable terms with their femininity.

I'm not saying people should be told "you're on your own, suck it up and never ask for help," but encouraging the exact opposite is going to create a lot of really helpless people who will eventually have no one to turn to and not have any way to pull themselves up. They could end up without friends or family, or the gov't could collapse, or who knows what else.

Well said Anaximander.

 

[Abendrot]

Could you conceive of the possibility that there is no one right way to be a man and that not all males will benefit or even grow up to be strong and self sufficient with the same treatment? And please explain honour. I start thinking of Klingons and Islamist honour killings. Honour seems tied in with treat me the way I want to be treated or I will employ violence so I'd like a better understanding of what you mean.

I cannot conceive of any other standard ideal of masculinity than that which is founded upon strength, courage, dependability, and honour. Can you? In nearly every culture in history, the concepts of masculinity and femininty were fairly similar, like variations upon the same formula. The most glaring exception is that of Post-Modern Western society. When all results tend to converge, it is probably because it is the most effective solution.
I would argue further, that these standard gender roles are those which are most consistent with the innate nature of the majority of humans (obviously, there are exceptions).

When I say honour, I mean something along the lines of Aristotelian pride. A sort of satisfaction and self-respect derived from integrity, achievement, and cultivation of virtue.

I said above that there is only one "standard formula" for masculinity. I mean that it should be the default expectation, suitable for the majority of people. I am neither a moral absolutist or a moral relativist; I see morality as an art. And so, I am capable of appreciating a variety of alternative virtue-systems and ways of life outside of the standard masculine and feminine ideals, so long as the people live in a way that is consistent, and possesses a moral aesthetic.

You mention that there gender roles are being "redefined" in the Western world right now. I disagree: There is no new, emerging concept of masculinity and femininity, only a wholesale rejection of all gender expectations.

 

[Tengri]

You have some interesting points and anecdotes-thanks for sharing them. It's interesting that in the hospital scenario the demographic is still predominantly nurses as female and doctors as male. Although that is shifting I wonder how long it will take, if ever, for it to become more balanced. I know more female doctors than male nurses and suspect that is because in our culture it is more acceptable for females to seem a bit masculine than for males to seem a bit feminine. I think this is what you are getting at with your story about the music teacher. We have that male/female stereotyping in the MBTI types too. And there are squabbles within gender groups-the you aren't a real feminist because you stayed home with your children attitude comes to mind.

Conclusion: Humans are a mess and will always be a work in progress.

Thanks, not a problem. Glad to be able to connect them here. That's still the case from what I can tell, as well. Something else comes to mind related to that though, which might add another angle to the argument. I've heard it said that men make poor nurses not because they lack any nurturing qualities per se, but in a more cognitive-behavioral sense struggle to multitask at the same efficiency as women. I remember reading once that after the third trimester, female brains shrink, rewire, and then swell again to become significantly better multitaskers for the challenges of childrearing. So based on that, my perception is that its possible that the (insane) rigors of nursing school and the demand to remember so many day-to-day details is foreign to most men, since they typically aren't socialized that way and think differently. I'm reminded of a phrase that crops up often in Ursula K le Guins novels when comparing genders; in her opinion, men think in straight lines. A pet theory of mine revolves around this issue of socialization and I've always wondered at what point in personality formation does that psycho-sexual difference differentiate boys from girls cognitively - and more importantly, if this is process is relative (in relation to sexual identity) or socially engineered by the males and females that they copy/emulate. (I'm actually not very familiar with the male/female stereotyping in MBTI, though I'm starting to pick up on it)

Yeah, that's definitely a messy topic. Perspectivism has become a big thing in feminism, and I get it, it just also muddles things a bit

 

[Mole]

Thanks, not a problem. Glad to be able to connect them here. That's still the case from what I can tell, as well. Something else comes to mind related to that though, which might add another angle to the argument. I've heard it said that men make poor nurses not because they lack any nurturing qualities per se, but in a more cognitive-behavioral sense struggle to multitask at the same efficiency as women. I remember reading once that after the third trimester, female brains shrink, rewire, and then swell again to become significantly better multitaskers for the challenges of childrearing. So based on that, my perception is that its possible that the (insane) rigors of nursing school and the demand to remember so many day-to-day details is foreign to most men, since they typically aren't socialized that way and think differently. I'm reminded of a phrase that crops up often in Ursula K le Guins novels when comparing genders; in her opinion, men think in straight lines. A pet theory of mine revolves around this issue of socialization and I've always wondered at what point in personality formation does that psycho-sexual difference differentiate boys from girls cognitively - and more importantly, if this is process is relative (in relation to sexual identity) or socially engineered by the males and females that they copy/emulate. (I'm actually not very familiar with the male/female stereotyping in MBTI, though I'm starting to pick up on it)

Yeah, that's definitely a messy topic. Perspectivism has become a big thing in feminism, and I get it, it just also muddles things a bit

I guess the next cab off the rank is female physics and male physics, perhaps even morphing into Fijian physics and Chinese physics.

Of course physics is neither male nor female, neither Fijian nor Chinese, physics is simply physics, sui generis.

And this is true of the intellectual life in general, both male and female share the same intellectual life.

Of course politics wants to take control of the intellectual life, so they have created identity politics, and now the intellectual life is to be divided by identity.

When politics controls the intellectual life we get Lysenko, and the destruction of Soviet biology for many decades.

 

[Cellmold]

I can't really enter into this topic without it just being about an intensely personal experience, at which point it becomes about my idea of individuality and too far removed from general attributes of being a man, whatever those turn out to be....

Though what person isn't living their own intensely personal experience (or approximation of)? All I can really offer for the actual topic is that any similarities with stereotypical traits are coincidental, not fated and whenever I feel the pressure of social enforcement & false obligation bearing down on the back of my neck, it is then that I most rue my gender and dislike the invalidation of my emotional memory & world.

It's about control & turning people into a resource. It's so pervasive and encompasses our entire mental imaging of phenomenological reality.

Whether it is aimed at men or women I see it as wrong and the closest element in the world to which I can call 'evil'.

 

[human101]

-You can never show weakness. Men will laugh at you, women are repelled by it.

-Can't talk about problems or express emotions, people think they want to be there for you but their action say otherwise.

-If your not happy and showing signs of external success, you are a pariah in your social/family circle.

-Other men constantly trying to outdo you, even in small banal ways.

-Accepting that being yourself is not enough, to be treated well, attract a mate etc...... basically the burden of performance.

 

[Lark]

Still thinking of the terrible things I must not post