Westworld (2016)

[Totenkindly]

They showed you-know-who's actual body in the beginning of this season, so yes, he is dead. (it had human insides... spilled out over the ground.)

Lots of great info to fuel the story in this episode, including what Delos has been up to (not very surprising). Peter Mullan is as great as ever.

Big question: Whose red ball was that?

The best speculations I've heard have been for either Ford or... Arnold. So maybe that "Bernard" we see in the opener on the beach isn't actually Bernard but Arnold in host form. From a writer-poking-the-audience way, that would be pretty awesome after the revelations of Season 1. I'm not really fond of Ford coming back thematically. However, if he did, I doubt he would come back in old Ford body. he could come back as anyone, honestly, and it would also sidestep needing Anthony Hopkins to reprise the role.

Elise is taking everything in stride, all things considered.

And yeah, I laughed -- very pleased -- when William's daughter announced herself. It's you!

 

[chubber]

They showed you-know-who's actual body in the beginning of this season, so yes, he is dead. (it had human insides... spilled out over the ground.)

Lots of great info to fuel the story in this episode, including what Delos has been up to (not very surprising). Peter Mullan is as great as ever.

Big question: Whose red ball was that?

The best speculations I've heard have been for either Ford or... Arnold. So maybe that "Bernard" we see in the opener on the beach isn't actually Bernard but Arnold in host form. From a writer-poking-the-audience way, that would be pretty awesome after the revelations of Season 1. I'm not really fond of Ford coming back thematically. However, if he did, I doubt he would come back in old Ford body. he could come back as anyone, honestly, and it would also sidestep needing Anthony Hopkins to reprise the role.

Elise is taking everything in stride, all things considered.

And yeah, I laughed -- very pleased -- when William's daughter announced herself. It's you!

Red ball being a core?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Red ball being a core?

It's like a brain thing. I think they said it represented the brain of an actual person.

analogous to James Delos.

 

[Beorn]

why destroy the whole mini-lab? Why not just wipe the brain. If they destroy him and the lab, how can he be partially human/host?

Have you seen the film Moon?

If you want to ensure as few variables as possible you start from scratch and you don't take the risk that there are any changes made by a past subject that could impact any future subject.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not really much of a spoiler to say next week looks like "Samurai World" and I about cracked up because I thought I caught a few glimpses of Hiroyuki Sanada in there. He's one of my favorite actors and has played a samurai a bunch of times in other shows/films (including "The Last Samurai," but stuff like "Sunshine" and "Lost" as well), so it's not much of a surprise to see they snatched him up for this.

It looks like they also grabbed Rinko Kikuchi, who (to borrow from Troy McClure) you might recognize from her roles as Mako Mori in Pacific Rim and Bang Bang in The Brothers Bloom.

It's like a brain thing. I think they said it represented the brain of an actual person.

analogous to James Delos.

White cores are hosts.

Red cores are... well, yeah, the analogous scan imposed on mech brain.

 

[chubber]

Have you seen the film Moon?

If you want to ensure as few variables as possible you start from scratch and you don't take the risk that there are any changes made by a past subject that could impact any future subject.

Yes, I have seen Moon (2009) with Sam Rockwell.

Ok, so you are saying, when they terminate, there is nothing to "unlink" and float around with "reveries"? There is nothing to inherit?

It's like a brain thing. I think they said it represented the brain of an actual person.

analogous to James Delos.

So there was a small scene, where this red ball, or what seemed like the assembly of this organic brain ball was made. But why would they go into it, why bother, because it cannot be altered? I'm just trying to think, what benefit does it have over the "normal" white ball, that seems similar to a light globe. How does that represent a human brain, if it is build from scratch. Why bother with a baseline and what seems like a "backstory".

Hope all of this is explained later.

White cores are hosts.

Red cores are... well, yeah, the analogous scan imposed on mech brain.

Well as I mentioned earlier. What benefit would that have? Guess I'll find out in the next episodes (probably not the next one).

 

[Totenkindly]

Well as I mentioned earlier. What benefit would that have? Guess I'll find out in the next episodes (probably not the next one).

I don't understand the question. What benefit would there be for a human to live forever in a host body?

Of course, it all depends on whether you believe consciousness is actually transferred or whether it's just a duplicate so for the subject they would be dead and it would just be a copy but to everyone else it would seem like the person is still alive.

 

[ceecee]

I don't understand the question. What benefit would there be for a human to live forever in a host body?

Of course, it all depends on whether you believe consciousness is actually transferred or whether it's just a duplicate so for the subject they would be dead and it would just be a copy but to everyone else it would seem like the person is still alive.

For a second, I wondered if MiB/William wanted to bring Juliette back the same way he did with his father-in-law. But then he would have to contend with Emily there. Emily also told spare Hemsworth she isn't trying to get out of the park. She knows the Lakota language, appears to be very familiar with the Raj and keeps a little notebook. Is she looking for the same thing her father is seeking? Or is she looking for her grandfather? Or mother? All that makes her really interesting to me.

 

[chubber]

I don't understand the question. What benefit would there be for a human to live forever in a host body?

Of course, it all depends on whether you believe consciousness is actually transferred or whether it's just a duplicate so for the subject they would be dead and it would just be a copy but to everyone else it would seem like the person is still alive.

Well, ok, perhaps I'm missing something, the difference between the red vs the white, core, and both are being built. Both requires a baseline. So how is it really living forever, when the red ball is being contructed from scratch... I don't understand how that is a transfer when it is really a new thing. They could have given James Delos, white ball. both would live "forever", in fact the more synthetic you are, the easier it would be to live forever. I can only guess that I'm bridging the actual brain organ that is converted into a red ball. Just couldn't fathom that part, maybe that part doesn't sit right with me. If the brain is deconstructed into a red ball, then how can it be the same thing.

edit:

We see James in a stylish apartment, and he is notified he has a guest. It turns out to be William, and James asks when he will be able to get out of his confinement. William tells him that they are monitoring him, and need to do some tests on him to determine if he can be released. This scene repeats several times, including when William is the age of the Man in Black, and we find out that James is a host in whom they have implanted the memories of James as a test. Host James appears to be lasting a number of days working fine, but eventually he he breaks down and the Westworld staff have to burn down the apartment and start over again.

ok, I guess, maybe that is what I needed to read.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, ok, perhaps I'm missing something, the difference between the red vs the white, core, and both are being built. Both requires a baseline. So how is it really living forever, when the red ball is being contructed from scratch... I don't understand how that is a transfer when it is really a new thing. They could have given James Delos, white ball. both would live "forever", in fact the more synthetic you are, the easier it would be to live forever. I can only guess that I'm bridging the actual brain organ that is converted into a red ball. Just couldn't fathom that part, maybe that part doesn't sit right with me. If the brain is deconstructed into a red ball, then how can it be the same thing.

edit:

We see James in a stylish apartment, and he is notified he has a guest. It turns out to be William, and James asks when he will be able to get out of his confinement. William tells him that they are monitoring him, and need to do some tests on him to determine if he can be released. This scene repeats several times, including when William is the age of the Man in Black, and we find out that James is a host in whom they have implanted the memories of James as a test. Host James appears to be lasting a number of days working fine, but eventually he he breaks down and the Westworld staff have to burn down the apartment and start over again.

ok, I guess, maybe that is what I needed to read.

Yeah, they need fresh hardware plus surroundings for each outing to make sure nothing is interfering with the next iteration that might derail it. Clean environment so to speak.

Plus it also ties into the repeated theme of hell and the devil -- listen to James' lines.

 

[chubber]

Yeah, they need fresh hardware plus surroundings for each outing to make sure nothing is interfering with the next iteration that might derail it. Clean environment so to speak.

Plus it also ties into the repeated theme of hell and the devil -- listen to James' lines.

yeah but, how can he/it be aware of it, if it is a fresh start every time. the only time he is aware of it is, when that paper is given to him. Or does it have something to do with him .... awake ... for 35 days? Or what was that about.

 

[Beorn]

Of course, it all depends on whether you believe consciousness is actually transferred or whether it's just a duplicate so for the subject they would be dead and it would just be a copy but to everyone else it would seem like the person is still alive.

Star Trek wasn't quite the same after I read about the theory of the transporter being a suicide box.

 

[Totenkindly]

yeah but, how can he/it be aware of it, if it is a fresh start every time. the only time he is aware of it is, when that paper is given to him. Or does it have something to do with him .... awake ... for 35 days? Or what was that about.

Well, you want to clean out the environment because there could be subtle signs that he has been there before. It's easier just to make sure it's a clean slate COMPLETELY.

Same thing with wipes. Currently when you delete files on a hard drive, the data is still there, you just unallocated it in the directory table so the system thinks it's "free" space and overwrites anything in it as time passes. (Unless you of course do an ACTUAL wipe and reset all data values to 0, directly.) Anyway, considering the importance and difficulty in what they are trying to accomplish, they just find it easier to start completely clean, with new hardware and software, rather than trying to reuse something... there's just too much chance something could conflict.

 

[chubber]

Well, you want to clean out the environment because there could be subtle signs that he has been there before. It's easier just to make sure it's a clean slate COMPLETELY.

Same thing with wipes. Currently when you delete files on a hard drive, the data is still there, you just unallocated it in the directory table so the system thinks it's "free" space and overwrites anything in it as time passes. (Unless you of course do an ACTUAL wipe and reset all data values to 0, directly.) Anyway, considering the importance and difficulty in what they are trying to accomplish, they just find it easier to start completely clean, with new hardware and software, rather than trying to reuse something... there's just too much chance something could conflict.

is hell, everytime you restart from fresh, or reliving, knowing the same life again and again? To me, hell would then only start, once you know (the paper).

anyway, I'll just keep going in circles, because there are too many unknowns for me. I'll just park it under Artistic license for now.

 

[chubber]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

So I'm rewatching the season 1 finale, and in it, Ford confirms that the backstory with Bernard's son originally belonged to Arnold. Arnold's son died, and then that backstory was given to Bernard.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Didn't Beta Hemsworth's character die last season? The last we saw of him was when the Lakota were closing in around him and "freeze motor functions" wasn't working. I've been waiting for some follow-up reveal of him being a host (regardless of whether he was before) and I don't think there's been one.

Not really much of a spoiler to say next week looks like "Samurai World" and I about cracked up because I thought I caught a few glimpses of Hiroyuki Sanada in there. He's one of my favorite actors and has played a samurai a bunch of times in other shows/films (including "The Last Samurai," but stuff like "Sunshine" and "Lost" as well), so it's not much of a surprise to see they snatched him up for this.

I was excited to see him too.

I was also excited to see Zahn McClarnon (Hanzee Dent in Fargo season two). Though it's possible he's actually been in the cast all along and I didn't recognise him under all the Lakota face paint.

Eta: Checked imdb, he was not in season one.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Someone on another site pointed out that there's an interesting metatextual element to this episode, which was that a number of Westerns were actually remakes of Japanese samurai movies. I wonder if that kind of thing ever happened the other way around?

 

[Totenkindly]

I found the episode pretty satisfying overall. There are a few important plot points:

1. Shogun World is off-track too, just like the other worlds, although Maeve can still control them if she speaks the right language. (Which leads to Point #2.)

2. Maeve now apparently has wireless access to the other hosts. Not sure what the limits are, but she quickly progresses from control of 1-2 hosts to having an entire camp of hosts butcher each other. She learns fast.

3. It was really breathtakingly sweet to see things progress between Teddy and Dolores, it's something people have anticipated since the series started. It was beautiful, lovely, sweet, honest, gentle.... and that made what happens next feel like a slap in the face.

4. Some folks have commented on Dolores' "mental rape" of Teddy to suggest she is no different from the humans controlling their hosts for their own agenda. I think it's a little more complicated than that, since part of it is that Dolores wants to succeed and part of it, I think, is that she cares about Teddy and she knows he won't survive if he remains gentle and optimistic, so she's hardening him up so that he can succeed and survive.... it's PARTLY for him, from what I could tell. But it's still disturbing because she had to make him into something he is not (kind of eradicating who he was) in order to last. Humans usually undergo trials by suffering to harden up, we can't just be "programmed" in a few seconds to behave a certain way -- we HAVE to take the long road. And we don't necessarily agreed to trials either, they happen to us and we either survive or die and change in the process. At the same time, we can make continual choices about whether to bear up or bail, so it's an interactive process.

The question here is whether host ethics are similar to human ethics. Here, the hosts don't HAVE to go through the lengthy painful experience; they can just adjust their temperaments. It's mainly that Teddy was not given the choice; Dolores, as painful as it appeared for her (you can see remorse in her eyes, but resolution as well), makes the decision FOR him. So he loses his volition regardless in this matter. Humans naturally have to make the decision on an ongoing basis, hosts can just skip the decision-making past the initial choice.

Didn't Beta Hemsworth's character die last season? The last we saw of him was when the Lakota were closing in around him and "freeze motor functions" wasn't working. I've been waiting for some follow-up reveal of him being a host (regardless of whether he was before) and I don't think there's been one.

We didn't ever see him die, and he shows up in the season 2 premiere (in the plot at the END of the 2-3 weeks), and it's suggested he was still alive up to when William's daughter escaped. But yeah, we never actually see him escape or die yet. And there's still the red ball floating around out there.

Someone on another site pointed out that there's an interesting metatextual element to this episode, which was that a number of Westerns were actually remakes of Japanese samurai movies. I wonder if that kind of thing ever happened the other way around?

Pretty interesting. Not really sure. The chanbara flicks started to peter out in the 70's. Kurosawa were influenced by John Ford and others (American directors) and based two of his movies on Shakespeare plays. There was interplay back and forth during that time / cross-pollination, although it seems the American westerns are the more obvious cribs of Japanese films -- Americans love their disgraced / outside-the-code heroes. There's typically a conflict between a character's inner ethical code and the external ethical honor system (aka conscience vs duty) in Japanese film that fits nicely with the lone hero existing outside the law, even Dirty Harry feels like a ronin of sorts (a tarnished cop outside the system doing what is right on the inside) and it's not helped that he's played by Eastwood who also was the star of many of the most famous spaghetti westerns.

 

[ceecee]

Pretty interesting. Not really sure. The chanbara flicks started to peter out in the 70's. Kurosawa were influenced by John Ford and others (American directors) and based two of his movies on Shakespeare plays. There was interplay back and forth during that time / cross-pollination, although it seems the American westerns are the more obvious cribs of Japanese films -- Americans love their disgraced / outside-the-code heroes. There's typically a conflict between a character's inner ethical code and the external ethical honor system (aka conscience vs duty) in Japanese film that fits nicely with the lone hero existing outside the law, even Dirty Harry feels like a ronin of sorts (a tarnished cop outside the system doing what is right on the inside) and it's not helped that he's played by Eastwood who also was the star of many of the most famous spaghetti westerns.

Actually I head this about the Dirty Harry movies and wasn't there a Ronin movie with DeNiro? Naturally these are American cop movies but I can see how westerns evolved from a much older story (Shakespeare) or the Samuri period (1600-1868), especially since American Westerns take place at the end of that period.

Samurai cinema - Wikipedia