Uumlau answers your questions about Fi

[Stanton Moore]

What kind of problems? Without knowing more, I will simply say "Yes". For me, Fi usage is especially critical in the early stages of problem solving. (Understand/Determine the problem, Develop requirements for a solution.)

I was hoping uumlau would respond too.... I was hoping you had an example...

 

[Udog]

I was hoping uumlau would respond too.... I was hoping you had an example...

I mean an example of a problem. Different types of problems require different strategies for solutions.

 

[uumlau]

Is Fi useful for problem solving?

Fi solves a different kind of problem. Remember that Fi is slow, not fast.

Ni/Te is very fast (for me) and solves problem like crazy.

However, where Ni/Te is really good for thinking my way out of a paper bag, Fi-understanding is really good for not finding oneself in a paper bag in the first place.

 

[PeaceBaby]

And branches are the various theorems? So what is the root of the tree? Aka, what goes into creating an axiom?

Honestly, the axiom structure doesn't resonate with me that much. I guess whatever I have provides direction rather than answers. Perhaps my Fi just isn't all that developed, though.

Hmm yes that's a metaphor on the fly ... let me give it life with roots and branches and leaves - shall ponder that one.

Did you read my assertion example above? Does that help at all?

Is Fi useful for problem solving?

Each tool in the toolbox has a job. I find Fi instantly gives me access to what feels right or wrong about a problem. Then I have to work through all the possible variables to see why I feel bothered so. Ne is flying around at this point, creating multiple scenarios, possibilities and solutions. Then a lil break is in order to let the other functions weigh in so to speak - are the possible solutions practical, logical, feasible.

I love problem-solving. Don't always love problems, but all the possibilities ... whee!

Edit: I should add though that emotion-laden issues that need attention will be full of (imagine) emotions whilst I sort them out. It can be stressful.

 

[Seymour]

Fi solves a different kind of problem. Remember that Fi is slow, not fast.

Ni/Te is very fast (for me) and solves problem like crazy.

That's interesting, because I don't perceive Fi as slow, exactly. I think it's slow to verbalize and slow to understand logically, but it often does evaluate things relatively quickly. I would say it doesn't tend to lead to time awareness, but instead tends to wants plumb things in depth and understand their nature (much like Ti). Of course, for me this could be some Ne spilling in there, too.

Te (the little I understand it) feels more impatient and goal oriented by comparison.


Areas where Fi is useful for problem solving:

• Aligning one's actions with one's own values.
• Coming up with solutions that respect the values of others (and personal autonomy in general).
• Making aesthetic evaluations, especially ones involving self expression. (ISFPs can be good at this, in particular)
• Evaluating subtle difference in emotional tone (helpful when communicating or analyzing the communications of others).

 

[William K]

This is a problem that INFPs can run into. What if one of your axioms *is* wrong? Would you be willing to face that devastation? Or would you cling to your axiom at all costs... and "fight" to the bloody end, WINNING by any logical means, brute force tactics, or olive branch extending compromises, over whoever challenged it?

Or have you designed your axioms such that they are 100% guaranteed to be correct?

Personally, I see the world mostly in shades of gray instead of black and white. There might be some axioms that are sacrosanct, but I doubt there will be many. The example of stealing can have exceptions such as the case of Robin Hood or people looting a supermarket for food after a disaster like an earthquake.

I think that is part of the 'maturing' process; the figuring out of the threshold of each axiom. Because a mature Fi-user to me would be one who could stand his ground yet at the same time be willing to compromise to a certain point.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Personally, I see the world mostly in shades of gray instead of black and white. There might be some axioms that are sacrosanct, but I doubt there will be many. The example of stealing can have exceptions such as the case of Robin Hood or people looting a supermarket for food after a disaster like an earthquake.

I think that is part of the 'maturing' process; the figuring out of the threshold of each axiom. Because a mature Fi-user to me would be one who could stand his ground yet at the same time be willing to compromise to a certain point.

As I mentioned already though, even in the case of justifiable exceptions, you are not going to believe stealing to be fundamentally or morally correct, are you?

 

[William K]

As I mentioned already though, even in the case of justifiable exceptions, you are not going to believe stealing to be fundamentally correct, are you?

Nope, it's more like "Stealing is wrong" is 99.99% true, not "Stealing is right" is 0.01% true

 

[professor goodstain]

uumlau, gonna throw this out there
Fi is hard to articulate because we are communicating with a tool that is very new to the earth....english.
english does articulate science very well, however, when it comes to nature, it sucks, imo. yet, i did find a symbol that might work well in mixing nature with this science concerning Fi.
*sovereign*
actually, i think i've seen it a time or two in descriptions.
sovereignty exists, it's not granted. i seen somewhere Fi despises beaurocracy. could be a difference there with Fe. Fe would understand a beaurocracy comes with a civilisation and would value a popular consenus. Fi would understand maintaining sovereignty within the individuals/groups or even that civilisation itself from greater consensus due to valuing an idea of one size does not fit all.
for what it's worth

 

[PeaceBaby]

A = B or A is B makes it 100% correct though ...

If stealing is wrong, then ...

(I am just being a bit provocative here.)

 

[William K]

A = B or A is B makes it 100% correct though ...

If stealing is wrong, then ...

(I am just being a bit provocative here.)

Heh. Well, I'm a closet relativist so I don't believe that something is not wrong = something is right, or vice versa, but that's a discussion for another thread

 

[uumlau]

The difficult part for an INTJ ...

Sometimes Ni loses all context. It finds patterns and works things around and starts chewing on things, but in the end, it fails to get anywhere.

At that point, one has to let go and trust Fi.

But it isn't that easy. My Ni/Te part of me knows I need to let go and trust Fi. Just let go.

It starts to let go ...

And then quickly grabs back that train of thought and starts chewing on it again. It's difficult, so difficult to refrain from overthinking things.

I'm still working on this bit, the letting go, the not overthinking.

I derive emotional comfort from knowing what's going on, from being "sure." One of the reasons INTJs sound so cocky and sure of themselves (when we speak up, that is), is that without that level of confidence, we'd just clam up, unable to act, unable to speak.

That's what happens when we get into an Fi-only realm. We clam up, unable to act, unable to speak, even though we want to SHOUT what we feel to the whole world. Even though we want to act on what we feel. We question ourselves into inactivity, unsure of our feelings even though our feelings are quite clear to ourselves and others.

I can be cocky and start a thread to answer everyone's questions about Fi. And then life gives me something (a wonderful something) that makes me feel, and I realize that I've only begun to understand Fi. I think I've made progress in terms of the day-to-day Fi, but the big stuff, even the good big stuff, throws me for a loop.

I need to shout more. I need to act on what I feel more, without overthinking. (Or thinking at all, for that matter ... dammit!)

I need to go and dance, now, I th-- er, um, I feel.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

You've been awesome at Fi. But now I think you should start a thread about Fe and see what happens.

 

[527468]

Just wanted to say good job on the Fi description. I just skimmed through it but found myself relating a lot to it. I retyped myself INFP before I read some of this of course, and used to type myself INTJ. Who knows though, maybe I'm really INTJ like I've thought since the beginning. I've had a lot of trouble assuming I'm an F to be honest, even though I think in reality it is true. I test as INxx, leaning a bit more P, but don't relate at all to Ti or valuing it, and not close to the rational and logical aspect of INTPs in real life, so I naturally went with INTJ because I related somewhat more to that on a deeper level, probably overlooking a lot of obvious surface things, many of which I'm still probably unaware. But I've really been discovering that I'm not much of a rational as I really thought I was, I think I'm just a guy, not a woman . I listen a lot to my emotions, how I feel about things, decide with my gut, not logic, always contemplating and unsure about how I really feel, sort of do stupid things from time to time, can appear crazier than INTPs or just more lost within myself, can't catch on to witty logic a lot of the time, rational thoughts pass through me, almost every decision depends on my feelings. Don't know what to say most of the time. I try to make it deep, but fail. I need to work on just talking about anything. I question who I am, what is, what is as it is and what is only as it seems, I am a type 5 in enneagram I believe. I'm not a reckless person though. I think a lot and try to care about things, and not find myself in trouble. I do come across rather anti-social, and do block out feelings due to how I grew up, it is a defense mechanism, and wasn't all necessary. But I do come out of difficult situations of my childhood and I am still always kind and try to be humble. I like rest and healing, new perspectives. I tested INFP on the function test. I'm a music composer, of orchestra mainly, for films, and live a lot in theory, imagination, and emotion, though not really expressiveness. I hope to write for big movies years down the road. I don't think I'm an S though. I can be good at certain S things, certain details, and even in music I often fail to see things that others see, and I like when they show me. Anyway, keep up the good work, even though I don't read much on here. I can always picture myself getting into it though, one of these days.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Just wanted to say good job on the Fi description. I just skimmed through it but found myself relating a lot to it. I retyped myself INFP before I read some of this of course, and used to type myself INTJ. Who knows though, maybe I'm really INTJ like I've thought since the beginning. I've had a lot of trouble assuming I'm an F to be honest, even though I think in reality it is true. I test as INxx, leaning a bit more P, but don't relate at all to Ti or valuing it, and not close to the rational and logical aspect of INTPs in real life, so I naturally went with INTJ because I related somewhat more to that on a deeper level, probably overlooking a lot of obvious surface things, many of which I'm still probably unaware. But I've really been discovering that I'm not much of a rational as I really thought I was, I think I'm just a guy, not a woman . I listen a lot to my emotions, how I feel about things, decide with my gut, not logic, always contemplating and unsure about how I really feel, sort of do stupid things from time to time, can appear crazier than INTPs or just more lost within myself, can't catch on to witty logic a lot of the time, rational thoughts pass through me, almost every decision depends on my feelings. Don't know what to say most of the time. I try to make it deep, but fail. I need to work on just talking about anything. I question who I am, what is, what is as it is and what is only as it seems, I am a type 5 in enneagram I believe. I'm not a reckless person though. I think a lot and try to care about things, and not find myself in trouble. I do come across rather anti-social, and do block out feelings due to how I grew up, it is a defense mechanism, and wasn't all necessary. But I do come out of difficult situations of my childhood and I am still always kind and try to be humble. I like rest and healing, new perspectives. I tested INFP on the function test. I'm a music composer, of orchestra mainly, for films, and live a lot in theory, imagination, and emotion, though not really expressiveness. I hope to write for big movies years down the road. I don't think I'm an S though. I can be good at certain S things, certain details, and even in music I often fail to see things that others see, and I like when they show me. Anyway, keep up the good work, even though I don't read much on here. I can always picture myself getting into it though, one of these days.

I was going to say you sound INFP to me, fwiw.

 

[gromit]

Is Fi useful for problem solving?

Well, I'm not sure if this is Fi, but sometimes a situation will make me feel a certain, surprising way, angry or sad or uncomfortable or anything really.

So then I probe around, like "what is this feeling trying to tell me?" and then I realize OHHHH I felt discomfort because the person was being manipulative and because it threatened my sense of ________... or I felt attacked by subtle references to _________ and that is why I felt like I wanted to lash out... or whatever it is I realize. So sometimes it is insight into a situation, or sometimes it is insight into myself. I've learned that a lot of the time my feelings can be more intelligent than my awareness. They can notice things sooner and faster than I can. But I still need to process it to really understand it.

Sorry the examples vague, I couldn't think of anything specific off the top of my head.

 

[Charmed Justice]

A lot of people seem to test high in Fi when they're feeling down. How do you differentiate between healthy Fi and shadowy Fi?

 

[Poki]

Heh. Well, I'm a closet relativist so I don't believe that something is not wrong = something is right, or vice versa, but that's a discussion for another thread

If you would like to start a thread, this would be about "partials"(do not look up that word, I made it up). Partial truths, which is different then say white lies.

 

[PeaceBaby]

The difficult part for an INTJ ...

Sometimes Ni loses all context. It finds patterns and works things around and starts chewing on things, but in the end, it fails to get anywhere.

At that point, one has to let go and trust Fi.

But it isn't that easy. My Ni/Te part of me knows I need to let go and trust Fi. Just let go.

It starts to let go ...

And then quickly grabs back that train of thought and starts chewing on it again. It's difficult, so difficult to refrain from overthinking things.

I'm still working on this bit, the letting go, the not overthinking.

I derive emotional comfort from knowing what's going on, from being "sure." One of the reasons INTJs sound so cocky and sure of themselves (when we speak up, that is), is that without that level of confidence, we'd just clam up, unable to act, unable to speak.

That's what happens when we get into an Fi-only realm. We clam up, unable to act, unable to speak, even though we want to SHOUT what we feel to the whole world. Even though we want to act on what we feel. We question ourselves into inactivity, unsure of our feelings even though our feelings are quite clear to ourselves and others.

I can be cocky and start a thread to answer everyone's questions about Fi. And then life gives me something (a wonderful something) that makes me feel, and I realize that I've only begun to understand Fi. I think I've made progress in terms of the day-to-day Fi, but the big stuff, even the good big stuff, throws me for a loop.

I need to shout more. I need to act on what I feel more, without overthinking. (Or thinking at all, for that matter ... dammit!)

I need to go and dance, now, I th-- er, um, I feel.

You make me smile.

You should still think though. I lead with Fi, have come to trust it more and more as my life evolves, but I still think; everything requires the proper balance in order to function well.

In a certain irony, I sometimes need to follow that advice too: "At that point, one has to let go and trust Fi." When one does not grow with the confidence in one's dominant function, when the world appears to favor logic, one has to grow back into Fi and afford it the respect it deserves.

Just because you may sometimes feel bad too - that does not necessarily mean you need a whole new tree. There are subtleties and nuances to refine your rules rather than thinking a whole swap-out is in order. Explore what makes you feel bad, sit with it for a while - what isn't jiving, what isn't right. That will help you use Fi in a mature manner, a discerning manner. Not just in a "right or wrong" way. Like a compass, a divining rod of sorts.

Think of that little compass needle, bobbing around in the housing of the compass. You stop and look at it - it's still bobbing, will it point north or south, it appears tremulous, uncertain. But if you stand still long enough it will come to point. And too - where it stops is not right or wrong per se; it just IS.

-----

Still reflecting on the tree / forest metaphor.

In some ways, the whole metaphor could rest on a single tree. The roots are the axioms (values), invisible, that ground us and feed into the trunk of the tree, the way we begin to manifest in the outer world. The branches are the assertions we make (or theorems) and this in turn leads to smaller branches and leaves, even each branch bearing fruit ties in nicely to our metaphor. How well we nourish our roots is reflective of how strong and tall and fruitful we can become.

The forest as metaphor - each axiom (value) is a tree. The roots are the foundational aspects of each axiom, invisible to us even. How we have come to embrace each value is almost mysterious. The trunk of the tree is the axiom, and our assertions and subjective judgements that we manifest in the world are the branches and so on. Then in our forest of axioms, are we. We are the forest, we live in this forest, are the caretakers of it, and it is one that we can shape to be beautiful, full of abundance, light and shadow places; or it can be dark and we can be lost within it, unable to elevate ourselves to the top of any given tree to see the bigger context in which we live.

There's my thoughts for now. What resonates for you?

 

[gromit]

A lot of people seem to test high in Fi when they're feeling down. How do you differentiate between healthy Fi and shadowy Fi?

I wonder if this is because we tend to be more introspective/reflective when we're going through something difficult... I don't know if it's healthy vs. shadowy, just that difficult times make us examine things more, not always in a bad way.