[SP] Understanding Perception in SPs

[BlackCat]

I have a hard time understanding how the perception functions manifest themselves in SPs (Se and Ni). How do they work within you? I know the actual definitions, but not how they manifest themselves. How does Se work with your other functions and how does it drive you? What about Ni?

Off topic: What you've said Jeff has been great, but I want written answers and not just ones floating around in my head via memories.

 

[wolfy]

Great idea for a thread! Difficult question...Is it things like looking for clues in faces and things like that. Looking at some thing which is a system...like a business place or advertising and having the whole process behind it come to you in a cynical sort of way...I'm not sure...
What about 'seeing' the way things are so doing them differently for effect?

I have no idea how to answer the question. Something will pop into my mind later...I'll post that.

 

["?"]

Dario Nardi says

We can get powerful results using extraverted Sensing in tandem with introverted Intuiting. We can be very tuned in to the surrounding environment, with anticipation of what’s coming next. We may constantly read our industry’s current news to be sure to catch the next wave of innovations. Or we can engage people in fun activities, drawing them out and helping them transform themselves. We might pull a shy person onto the dance floor, convinced that there is an inner dancer waiting to be released; that person experiences his or her potential firsthand. Or we might shape the current context to what we envision it can be, like a sculptor who can “see” the final statue within a chunk of marble and sculpts everything else away to get to it.

 

[Quinlan]

We can get powerful results using extraverted Sensing in tandem with introverted Intuiting. We can be very tuned in to the surrounding environment, with anticipation of what’s coming next. We may constantly read our industry’s current news to be sure to catch the next wave of innovations. Or we can engage people in fun activities, drawing them out and helping them transform themselves. We might pull a shy person onto the dance floor, convinced that there is an inner dancer waiting to be released; that person experiences his or her potential firsthand. Or we might shape the current context to what we envision it can be, like a sculptor who can “see” the final statue within a chunk of marble and sculpts everything else away to get to it.

Ohh, that's good, I recognise it in myself, when I'm fishing I'm constantly aware of the weather and I have an uncanny ability to foresee what the weather is going to do. Similar thing playing sports, Se+Ni is like "reading the play", scanning your surroundings and almost instantly "knowing" where I need to be all in a single moment. I would break Se+Ni down to recognising patterns and meaning in the immediate concrete surroundings.

 

[wolfy]

We can get powerful results using extraverted Sensing in tandem with introverted Intuiting. We can be very tuned in to the surrounding environment, with anticipation of what’s coming next. We may constantly read our industry’s current news to be sure to catch the next wave of innovations. Or we can engage people in fun activities, drawing them out and helping them transform themselves. We might pull a shy person onto the dance floor, convinced that there is an inner dancer waiting to be released; that person experiences his or her potential firsthand. Or we might shape the current context to what we envision it can be, like a sculptor who can “see” the final statue within a chunk of marble and sculpts everything else away to get to it.

I recognise that in myself also. Training myself and also coaching people sometimes my mind will zoom inside the muscle while it's working or just 'see' what is going to happen in the gym and adjust the movements of people 'all at once'

 

[phoenity]

It's all starts with Seeing.

The rest just seems too automatic for me to describe. It just happens based upon existing knowledge and experience.

 

[wolfy]

Spontaneous understanding of a physical system coming up from your subconscious is how I'd describe it.

 

["?"]

I think that all SP types will see this to some degree since we do have Se either as dominant or auxiliary functions. He gives tandems for each and in reversal (i.e. Ni-Se). As a dominant Ti type, my tandem will be Fe. So ITPs should appreciate:

We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.

and IFPs may recognize this as well:

We can stay true to our beliefs by structuring our lives and standing firm with what’s important. We might decide against purchasing a particular product that harms the environment, and then arrange our lives or the organization we lead to make do without it. We might refer to evidence and empirical reasoning to support what we believe is true. Maybe we hold fast to the idea that all people bring useful gifts to society, then construct a sorter or a metric and gather data to demonstrate this value. Or we might use time-management and spatial organization skills to better follow through on important commitments and worthwhile projects.

Wolfy gave examples in this thread on Dario Nardi’s book. I want to buy it, but can’t find it locally and did not want to pay the shipping charges just for it. After reading some of the excerpts and pouring back over Beebe's successions, I stand corrected with Black Cat that Ti-Fe can go in tandem and to the contrary the polar opposite of Ti is not Fe, but Fi since Jung says that we cannot use two judging or perceptive functions in succession and we cannot simultaneously use two functions with the same attitude. Grant Ti-Fe would be hard to do, but plausible, however Ti-Fi can't be done.

 

[Jeffster]

I'm no expert on this function stuff. Sometimes I think they don't really exist, and somebody made it up to just make us feel better about ourselves. But, on a day where I am buying into it, I see it kinda like this:

I have read somewhere (multiple places I think) that a person's default way of "dealing with the external world" is using their strongest "extraverted" function. Now, this means for extroverted types, it's their dominant function, but for introverts, it's our secondary function. In the case of SPs, this means that whether we are introverts or extroverts, we take in information and give out information using extraverted sensing (Se.) We are constantly receiving information through our senses - seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting. What we take in then triggers impulses based on the sensory information that we have obtained. We then take action in the moment based on the impulses that we are feeling.

For instance, when I hear a song - I tap my feet or my hands or I air guitar or I bob my head or I sing along or I get up and dance - or if it sucks, I change the station.

When I'm driving, I'm constantly scanning everything with my eyes. I'm checking my mirrors, I'm checking my dials, I'm noticing the time on the clock, I'm watching the road, the road signs, the scenery I'm passing - staying alert for when I need to speed up, slow down, change lanes, turn, ride the curves, change the radio station, loosen my seatbelt a bit, pull over, turn the wipers on, open or close the windows, etc.

Those impulses are obviously affected by other things, too. And that's where our other functions come in. Apparently, the major difference between I SPs and E SPs is that for the E's, they tend to act on their impulses first, then use that secondary judging function (Fi or Ti) to evaluate what they did, trying to learn from it to either repeat the same action again, since it was successful, or to not repeat it since it was unsuccessful.

On the other hand, the I's tend to evaluate the impulses before they act on them to see whether they line up with what seems right (Fi) or what makes sense (Ti.) It doesn't mean that introverted SPs don't ever act without thinking about it first, or that extroverts ALWAYS follow every impulse that comes to them, it just means we introverts have more of an instant internal filter that restrains us a little more most of the time. But there are many situations in which that filter can be basically shut off because we are either very comfortable or "in our element" and these are times that we more naturally flow and act on that Se the same way that our extroverted cousins do.

So, as I explained in chat one day:

Se is like "Stuff happens, i am aware of the stuff because i am paying attention, and I would probably like to eat/drink/hit/hug/kiss/squeeze/make love to the stuff."

Se works with Fi by telling me "i know you'd like to reach over there and squeeze the little league MILFs boobies and go "HONNNNK", but don't do it, because that would be wrong."

Te says "don't do it, because her boyfriend or husband could be nearby, ready to beat the crap out of you."

Si says "the last time you did that, she slapped the taste out of your mouth."

Fe says "doing that might make people around you feel uncomfortable, and give you the reputation of being a creepazoid, and nobody will want to hang out with you."

Probably the remaining functions have something to say about it too, but for me the rest don't rise to the surface enough for me to really speculate what they might be saying.

Don't ask me about Ni, I don't use that one very often at all unless I've completely misinterpreted what it means. Personally, it sounds like the cause of most problems in the world. People making assumptions and seeing hidden meanings and agendas where they don't exist, instead of just taking things as they are. I would think if it ever rises in me, it would be suspicions of the motives of people like car dealers and politicians, but again that could still be Si, because it's based mostly on my experience with those type of people not being trustworthy, and not any kind of intuition about that.

I could write more about this, but it's hard for me to do it out of context. I'm better at answering specific questions. BlackCat, I'm gonna PM you some additional stuff. DO WITH IT WHAT YOU WILL.

 

[Poki]

I notice the dynamics of a situation, how everything interacts together to form a whole unit. Combined with Ti and Ni it is very powerful for understanding the dynamics of what is happening. We understand to the point where we can manipulate(not in a bad way) and control our surroundings and ourself. The thing is that to understand us you must know all outside factors that come into play.

When I say the whole unit, I mean everything that comes into play in regards to the situation. Sometimes I sound like I am against things, but all I am doing is focusing on the part of the dynamics that needs work. Ni is my understanding of how everything fits together. It is a single theory of how the world works and how each person works and how everything is interconnected.

An ENTP once tried to get in my head to see how I solve problems and I explained to him that I focus on the little things while not losing track of the big picture. If you understand the big picture you can delve into the detail while understanding how the big picture will be affected. I always go back to the big picture though because thats the validation that you are still focused on the right thing and dont need to readjust your plan of action.

 

[Colors]

Question I've been meaning to ask the SPs myself, Blackcat!

How I percieve usually falls into a few different approaches. The most common one is when I am caught up in my thought and I enter a situation- I am looking for something very specific in the environment/data (I scan) for the exact sort of observation or data that I need to add to my concept/to test it. (A clue of sorts.)

Another mode is observation. I learned a lot about this from paying attention to how I communicate to my friends what is happening/has happened. I always draw attention to what I think is an encompassing point (or encompassing points) within the situation- something that is an unique detail that is a perfect microcasm of the whole within macrocasm of the whole. So if you listen to a story I tell, it's usually chock-full of expanded-"shortcuts" so to speak (tailored to my audience hopefully). And I get so impatient with chronological stories that don't have a tonal emphasis. I need to know what to pay attention to!

The last mode I can sort of think of now is interaction. I poke and prod at people and watch for their reactions.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

To me , Se is a subconcious function. It's like a keen sense of your physical enviroment. You notice patterns, the stripes of a tiger, or the postioning of chairs. You notice just about every single detail, when your scanning in concentration, the variation of the colors in a tree cluster, their diffrent shapes and sizes, how a thing is formated, the intricate details of a magnificent structure, the wind, the weather.

Just like Ne, there is a natural projection of curiousity towards the external physical world, often a Extraverted sensor will ask questions like "What does that red button do?, "What happens if i jump that oddly shaped fence?", "hmm that's a curious form of leaf!?.

Ni in tandem with Se will give you an almost subconcious ability to predict the outcome of a immediate situation without even deducing. a Good example of how it works is when i am playing first person shooters. While defending a house which has multiple entry and exist points. I get a gut feeling that he'll come from a certain entry point, i quickly position my self in the corner with my crosshair about head-level, and 10 seconds later, i can hear the opponent approaching from his steps, and bam he's down.

Ni with Se also allow you to have an understanding viscerally of the right maneuver in a physical game popping up in the shape of gut instinct's. Knowing where to run to catch the ball.

Se in tandem with Ti gives a kinetic(mechanical) deductive ability. By observing the system first with Se, and then consulting Ti's understanding of the principles/framework.
"This pipe goes with that, because of [insert technical principle], therefore it makes sense to place it in that position"

Se also allows SFP's to notice moods and feelings based on physical cues, like tone of voice, facial expression, the shifting of the facial expression and so on and forth.

 

["?"]

To me , Se is a subconcious function. It's like a keen sense of your physical enviroment. You notice patterns, the stripes of a tiger, or the postioning of chairs. You notice just about every single detail, when your scanning in concentration, the variation of the colors in a tree cluster, their diffrent shapes and sizes, how a thing is formated, the intricate details of a magnificent structure, the wind, the weather.

And Jung actually coined the phrase unconscious function when referencing to functions below our dominant or primary. I think what you describe will come natural for ESP types, however depending on it’s development even ISPs will not always use Se with ease. In fact I was discussing this weekend the fact that all types can and do use their auxiliary function defensively. Therefore instead of doing as you state, I find myself being oblivious to my environment when over using my Ti. In other words, introverted types generally live inside their heads instead of their bodies. I still have to make a conscious effort to notice details.

Just like Ne, there is a natural projection of curiousity towards the external physical world, often a Extraverted sensor will ask questions like "What does that red button do?, "What happens if i jump that oddly shaped fence?", "hmm that's a curious form of leaf!?.

Again this is usually true in people who naturally prefer Se. For those who do not, there is the old adage from Lenore Thomson’s assessment of looking before you leap, which is generally an introverted thing, regardless of Se being the auxiliary function.

Ni in tandem with Se will give you an almost subconcious ability to predict the outcome of a immediate situation without even deducing. a Good example of how it works is when i am playing first person shooters. While defending a house which has multiple entry and exist points. I get a gut feeling that he'll come from a certain entry point, i quickly position my self in the corner with my crosshair about head-level, and 10 seconds later, i can hear the opponent approaching from his steps, and bam he's down.

Actually this could be Se in itself:

Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data. You are one with the experience. There is no "naming" or describing - just pure, vivid experience. The whole scene comes into your awareness almost at once.

What you are describing could just as easily be tactical intellect as described by temperament theorists. As for the cognitive function Se types generally confuse themselves as intuitive types, as outlined in this article by Berens. But Jung seemed to be pretty specific that the cognitive functions are not static, instead dynamic and flow on a sliding scale. Thus the more or less we use one function the greater or weaker it’s counterpart (Se > Ni, Se < Ni, Se = Ni) .

 

[SaltyWench]

I want to buy it, but can’t find it locally and did not want to pay the shipping charges just for it.

Maybe you could buy it from Amazon.com, depending on where you live? Since it ships from Amazon itself, it qualifies for the free super saver shipping on orders over $25.