Type clarification?

[Splittet]

Also, I'm not referring to vocabulary so much as to punctuation, spelling, and other grammatical rules, which often seem like artificial/pointless ideas to INTP's.

Wow, this is unbelievable to me. Did you even read what I wrote? Do other INTPs agree? Do you think it fits? Is grammar irrelevant to you?

 

["?"]

I agree that Ti's generally have a strong sense of what "is," and how and why it "is," but they're not always good at expressing it verbally.

Without having Gifts Differing in front of me, I recall that NJs have a hard time articulating their ideas from Ni, because they are almost unexplainable.

They don't seem quite as oriented to language as J's, and I've had more than one tell me they don't think verbally. But I know that I have a tendency to do so. Also, I'm not referring to vocabulary so much as to punctuation, spelling, and other grammatical rules, which often seem like artificial/pointless ideas to INTP's. I'll admit they have good enough vocabularies, though. My other issue is that they can be very broad in what they say, or even offer information that isn't obviously related to what I was talking about, and thus avoid addressing my point.

I don't think that grammatical rules can be based on type. Based not on experience of observing but from this site that references to writing styles per MBTI theories, some INTP writing strengths and weaknesses are:
Can find flaws in others’ arguments and correct concisely in writing.
When not challenged, may resort to an overly academic style.
May be too dry for the audience or ignore others’ feelings.
May be ineffective with canned formats.

Some for INTJs are:
Plan extensively.
Often have good ideas which they present in a clear, organized manner.
Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.

INFJ:
Tend to include personal values in writing to ensure clarity.
Writing may be too formal or academic in tone for business audiences.

ISTPs:
Often write quickly once they have facts at hand.
Tend to ramble and may have many more facts than needed but include them anyway.
Focus on details so much that they are likely to ignore the reader.

ISTJs:
Most efficient of all writers in estimating time and completing projects.
Because they value the details, may overwhelm the reader .

 

[Athenian200]

Without having Gifts Differing in front of me, I recall that NJs have a hard time articulating their ideas from Ni, because they are almost unexplainable.

Well, I think what it meant is that Ni tends to get inexplicable hunches at times, not that the majority of Ni's insights are inexplicable as a general rule. I have difficulty believing that... left brained people are usually better with language/articulation than right brained people, and I don't see why an exception should exist here.

I don't think that grammatical rules can be based on type.

Of course they're not. They're based on the English language, in our case. (Although I think some of them were borrowed from Latin ideas.) Understanding of/concern for grammatical rules may vary based on type, but atypically high/low intelligence can override the normal tendencies.

Based not on experience of observing but from this site that references to writing styles per MBTI theories, some INTP writing strengths and weaknesses are:
Can find flaws in others’ arguments and correct concisely in writing.
When not challenged, may resort to an overly academic style.
May be too dry for the audience or ignore others’ feelings.
May be ineffective with canned formats.

Some for INTJs are:
Plan extensively.
Often have good ideas which they present in a clear, organized manner.
Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.

INFJ:
Tend to include personal values in writing to ensure clarity.
Writing may be too formal or academic in tone for business audiences.

ISTPs:
Often write quickly once they have facts at hand.
Tend to ramble and may have many more facts than needed but include them anyway.
Focus on details so much that they are likely to ignore the reader.

ISTJs:
Most efficient of all writers in estimating time and completing projects.
Because they value the details, may overwhelm the reader .

Very interesting information... I'll have to remember that. But I haven't seen samples of formal writing from most of the types on here, so I don't really know how I should apply this.

 

[Splittet]

left brained people are usually better with language/articulation than right brained people, and I don't see why an exception should exist here.

That's so over-simplified. Firstly it's likely correlations based on this at best are only low. And again you must take into account the INTP type has the highest average IQ. The MBTI site on writing styles says INTPs often write too academically for their audience. Do you think an academic writing style matches well with ignorance of grammar?

 

[Virlomi]

Oh, wow, there are a lot of responses, thank you. I'm a little slower getting back to this than I would like-

INTJMom- I will ask one of my friends to help me as soon as I get the chance. I'm not overly critical with myself. I like to do things reasonably well, but I tend to disregard schoolwork or activities that I find tedious or unproductive, often turning in work that's good enough to get me a grade, but not a bit beyond. I get very indepth once I find something that interests me. I generally like my best efforts. Musically is the one area where I'm never content with myself.

From the childhood quiz, I scored as an ENP. I was more outgoing a few years ago. The details sounded right as well.

Randomnity- That was an interesting profile, and different from most of the stuff I've heard in relation to ISTPs. Some of it seemed very much like me, such as their "Contributions to the Organization" section in the summary, and the enjoyment of completing something tactile, but the rest of it doesn't quite seem to gel. I'm really not much for sports, extreme activities, or living on the edge at all. I also don't require doing something to learn it, I'm content to stick with the theory at times. This really does make me consider a Sensing type, though.

athenian200- Thank you, but I think I have to attribute my lack of spelling mistakes to Firefox's built in spell check. The comment about my lack of organization due to a low S confuses me a bit though, as I usually am quite close between N/S.

"?"- Finding out my temperament via my interaction style... I assume you mean just watching how I react in situations, are there any specific things I should think about in relation to any specific type?

ptgatsby- Ooh, that's an interesting concept, one that I'm comfortable with. So, is there still a point in determining type now? Which is the approach taken with this- consider yourself an 'n' but be aware of the possibility of future change? I'm not sure.

As to the left-brain, right-brain, word choice and clarity discussion, I really don't feel like I know enough about the whole concept to really weigh in... hence the thread! I strongly believe that you have to be able to get ideas across when necessary... grammar seems to be a decent start towards this.

"?"'s writing qualities of an INTP does sound like me. The INTJ sounds far from it, if they are usual attributes.

A question- how much does David Kiersey's ideas differ from the MBTI? I don't know. I was just lent his book regarding temperaments, but I'd like to know how much of their concepts are interchangeable, if any.

 

[MerkW]

Wow, this is unbelievable to me. Did you even read what I wrote? Do other INTPs agree? Do you think it fits? Is grammar irrelevant to you?

I agree with you, Splittet. I, an INTP, am usually very careful when structuring my sentences. I usually do care quite a bit about the grammar and spelling of my writing. Similarly, I have observed this trait in many other INTPs. I don't know where athenian2000 got the fallacious generalization that INTPs couldn't care less about grammar, spelling, etc. from.

P.S. Similarly, athenian200 earlier made a generalization about Ps "lacking foresight and vision." This couldn't be any worse at describing me.

 

[INTJMom]

...
INTJMom- I will ask one of my friends to help me as soon as I get the chance. I'm not overly critical with myself. I like to do things reasonably well, but I tend to disregard schoolwork or activities that I find tedious or unproductive, often turning in work that's good enough to get me a grade, but not a bit beyond. I get very indepth once I find something that interests me. I generally like my best efforts. Musically is the one area where I'm never content with myself....

I thought perhaps you might be an INTJ or INFJ, but both of those types tend to be perfectionists, and it doesn't sound like you suffer from that.

Since you didn't relate to the ISTP profile very well and you don't learn by doing, I would think you're probably INTP.

Just remember that every individual is an exception to the rule. Don't let your type define you. Just be yourself, and be the best you can be!

 

[Athenian200]

athenian200- Thank you, but I think I have to attribute my lack of spelling mistakes to Firefox's built in spell check. The comment about my lack of organization due to a low S confuses me a bit though, as I usually am quite close between N/S.

I'm using Firefox spell check as well... although I tend to notice more common spelling errors without it. But my point was that it seems like P's are less organized, and if they're less organized and diligent, then surely their spelling would suffer. If you care enough about spelling to actually run a spell check program, that still says something...

As to the left-brain, right-brain, word choice and clarity discussion, I really don't feel like I know enough about the whole concept to really weigh in... hence the thread! I strongly believe that you have to be able to get ideas across when necessary... grammar seems to be a decent start towards this.

Don't worry, they're just outside theories we keep mentioning to try and explain MBTI more thoroughly, and to justify our typings of individuals. Unfortunately, we tend to disagree on what's accurate and relevant to each type.

I agree with you, Splittet. I, an INTP, am usually very careful when structuring my sentences. I usually do care quite a bit about the grammar and spelling of my writing. Similarly, I have observed this trait in many other INTPs. I don't know where athenian2000 got the fallacious generalization that INTPs couldn't care less about grammar, spelling, etc. from.

First of all, I'm athenian200. It's from dealing with a person typed as INTP who claimed that spelling/grammatical rules were "conventional cant," and weren't important... claiming that only a J would attach that much importance to form, and thinking I was silly when I would correct myself after making a punctuation or spelling error in chat to make sure I was understood. He indicated this by reminding me that he "wasn't a J," and wouldn't be confused by such a thing. Of course, I decided to take this same idea as evidence that J's were just more diligent and precise with language.

Of course, it's also from dealing with another INTP who kept making incorrect generalizations, and justifying it by mentioning something about the "level of discourse," and thought that they were making it "simpler." I think it was just inaccurate... inaccurate statements maybe simpler, even if they're commonly accepted, but that doesn't mean they really help anyone to understand anything.

P.S. Similarly, athenian2000 earlier made a generalization about Ps "lacking foresight and vision." This couldn't be any worse at describing me.

That was a joke... I was trying to create a splinter in your movement by getting the INTJ's to side with another Ni dominant by playing on their mistrust of P's. I only meant that Ni is typically seen as very future oriented and visionary, not that INTP's couldn't think ahead well enough to create any sort of strategy. I was emphasizing the similarities of INxJ's.

 

[MerkW]

I'm using Firefox spell check as well... although I tend to notice more common spelling errors without it. But my point was that it seems like P's are less organized, and if they're less organized and diligent, then surely their spelling would suffer. If you care enough about spelling to actually run a spell check program, that still says something...


Don't worry, they're just outside theories we keep mentioning to try and explain MBTI more thoroughly, and to justify our typings of individuals. Unfortunately, we tend to disagree on what's accurate and relevant to each type.



First of all, I'm athenian200. It's from dealing with a person typed as INTP who claimed that spelling/grammatical rules were "conventional cant," and weren't important... claiming that only a J would attach that much importance to form, and thinking I was silly when I would correct myself after making a punctuation or spelling error in chat to make sure I was understood. He indicated this by reminding me that he "wasn't a J," and wouldn't be confused by such a thing. Of course, I decided to take this same idea as evidence that J's were just more diligent and precise with language.

Of course, it's also from dealing with another INTP who kept making incorrect generalizations, and justifying it by mentioning something about the "level of discourse," and thought that they were making it "simpler." I think it was just inaccurate... inaccurate statements maybe simpler, even if they're commonly accepted, but that doesn't mean they really help anyone to understand anything.


That was a joke... I was trying to create a splinter in your movement by getting the INTJ's to side with another Ni dominant by playing on their mistrust of P's. I only meant that Ni is typically seen as very future oriented and visionary, not that INTP's couldn't think ahead well enough to create any sort of strategy. I was emphasizing the similarities of INxJ's.

Oho. All is well in the fig trees. Interestingly, it so happens that my Ni is as strong as my Ne and Ti. Yet, I come out as INTP because my Te isn't particularly outstanding.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

I have not seen this specific test linked to in this thread, so I'd like to recommend the one I considered helpful.

Free personality tests: find out your type

Others have commented that it is as flawed as any other test, and that may be so, but I think the way the questions are worded sets it apart from other tests.

And a question on how you perceive politeness.

Which of these best describes your view of politeness?

It is just the right thing to do.
It is just instinct and you don't really think about it.
- I think both of those would point to Fe (possibly Te - following the rules)

You are concerned about the feelings of those you are being polite to.
- Could point to either Fe or Fi

Because being impolite could create problems, it takes less effort to be polite than it does to fix problems caused by not being polite.
- How I think someone with dominant Ti would view politeness.

None of the above / something else.

My initial inclination is toward IxTP, but based on your age, you may not have fully differentiated your type so what conclusions you reach now may not be the same as you will reach four to eight years from now. I think its still good to try to determine what your basic preferences are and pursue education options along those lines for more satisfaction down the road, and although you don't sound like an xxFx to me, I would not rule it out completely (many of us INFxs confused ourselves for INTxs at some point). I think someone already offered the link to the test at the following page, but I'm not sure if the test takes you to the main page there or not, so I'd recommend reviewing the information at the following page Personality and Kids and seeing if any descriptions give you an "ah ha!" moment.

I don't know of a really good ISTP description, but I'd recommend reading the INTP description here An INTP Profile and seeing if that seems to fit.

 

["?"]

"?"- Finding out my temperament via my interaction style... I assume you mean just watching how I react in situations, are there any specific things I should think about in relation to any specific type?

Actually I mean taking a good temperament test to determine your prefernce. Keep in mind that we use all type functions and temperaments. Organizing them in to a priority will be first step to determining whether you prefer SP, NT, NF or SJ. I like the test because it does rank the order of temperament preferences and gives you a better understanding of why you may or may not appear like your best fit type. In my case I prefer SP-NT-NF-SJ. Then you can eliminate three of the four types in the temperament by determing your interaction style. Also, bestfittype.com offers the best descriptions of type that I have seen. I thought that I posted the URLs on one my earlier post, but it may have been for a different thread.

 

[Virlomi]

My results-

ISTJ 59%
ISFJ 46%
INFJ 56%
INTJ 68%
ISTP 67%
ISFP 40%
INFP 45%
INTP 72%
ESTP 52%
ESFP 40%
ENTP 62%
ESTJ 63%
ESFJ 36%
ENFJ 41%
ENTJ 68%

Politeness for me is somewhat instinctual... Even as a much younger kid I never asked for anything, because I considered that rude, and never understood those that did. These days, I still have the nagging need to be polite, but I appreciate it more, because it can open a lot of doors for you.

Ah, thanks for the clarification on interaction styles, the links much have been a different thread. I was strategical, tactical, logical, and then diplomatic, and then 'Behind-the-Scenes.'

 

[INTJMom]

My results-

ISTJ 59%
ISFJ 46%
INFJ 56%
INTJ 68%
ISTP 67%
ISFP 40%
INFP 45%
INTP 72%
ESTP 52%
ESFP 40%
ENTP 62%
ESTJ 63%
ESFJ 36%
ENFJ 41%
ENTJ 68%

Politeness for me is somewhat instinctual... Even as a much younger kid I never asked for anything, because I considered that rude, and never understood those that did. These days, I still have the nagging need to be polite, but I appreciate it more, because it can open a lot of doors for you.

INTP 72%
INTJ & ENTJ 68%
ISTP 67%

Interesting results.

 

[INTJMom]

INTP - Introverted Thinking with Intuition
INTJ - Introverted Intuition with Thinking
Extraverted Thinking with Intuition
ISTP - Introverted Thinking with Sensing

If you have some time to kill, you could read these profiles and see which one you relate to the most.

 

[Splittet]

Why are we still discussing this? Virlomi is an INTP. Politeness might be due to her relatively strong Si, or simply due to her gender and cultural influences, or just a combination of all these factors. Not that interesting, really.

 

[Virlomi]

haha, alright then. Thank you for your help.

 

[Athenian200]

Why are we still discussing this? Virlomi is an INTP. Politeness might be due to her relatively strong Si, or simply due to her gender and cultural influences, or just a combination of all these factors. Not that interesting, really.

No, I don't agree. But apparently you've convinced this person that they are, so it doesn't matter much at this point. I'm mildly annoyed that you're conveniently chalking it up to culture/gender and dismissing all the differences that don't fit with that in what I consider to be an unsound manner. Here are my main reasons for thinking this person probably isn't an INTP:

1. Friends. the person appreciates their friends to enough of an extent that I don't think you can make a case for inferior Fe. The timidity mentioned earlier could be any introverted type, after all. Also, even female INTP's tend to have problems socially (just ask them), and if anything can have more issues in some ways than male ones because they're so far removed from the norm.

2. Politeness. INTP's would have a hard time (to say the least) just acting polite all the time. They may be aware enough to not say anything, or just give a minimal, neutral response, but acting "compulsively polite" would not be something they would/could do under normal circumstances. There are times some of them would want to, but it's just not something they can do without a lot of stress.

3. Order. The person seemed to have too much of an appreciation for structure/order to be much of a Perceiving type. The introduction was arranged in paragraphs, and each topic seemed to follow from the previous one, and the order they were presented in created the sense of one topic going into the other without any abrupt or seemingly random shifts.

 

[Splittet]

No, I don't agree. But apparently you've convinced this person that they are, so it doesn't matter much at this point. I'm mildly annoyed that you're conveniently chalking it up to culture/gender and dismissing all the differences that don't fit with that in what I consider to be an unsound manner. Here are my main reasons for thinking this person probably isn't an INTP:

I ask, haven't she tested as INTP in almost all the tests? How many times do you want to second-guess that?

1. Friends. the person appreciates their friends to enough of an extent that I don't think you can make a case for inferior Fe. The timidity mentioned earlier could be any introverted type, after all. Also, even female INTP's tend to have problems socially (just ask them), and if anything can have more issues in some ways than male ones because they're so far removed from the norm.

I am an IT, and I love my friends, and value them tremendously. Does that mean I can't be an IT? Must every introvert be socially handicapped?

2. Politeness. INTP's would have a hard time (to say the least) just acting polite all the time. They may be aware enough to not say anything, or just give a minimal, neutral response, but acting "compulsively polite" would not be something they would/could do under normal circumstances. There are times some of them would want to, but it's just not something they can do without a lot of stress.

Did you see how I mentioned relatively strong Si?

3. Order. The person seemed to have too much of an appreciation for structure/order to be much of a Perceiving type. The introduction was arranged in paragraphs, and each topic followed from the previous one sequentially, and the order they were presented in created the sense of one topic going into the other without any abrupt or seemingly random shifts.

Haha, again you are referring to the writings of Virlomi? I think I did a fairly good case for INTPs being one of the best types at grammar and spelling. You seem to forget it is on average the type with the highest IQ. Sorry, but your prejudices seem to mislead you. But even if her order is relatively high for her type, it might be explained by her relatively strong Si. Conlusion is therefore that Virlomi is an INTP with a strong tertiary Si.

 

[Athenian200]

I ask, haven't she tested as INTP in almost all the tests? How many times do you want to second-guess that?

Okay... that's reasonable.

I am an IT, and I love my friends, and value them tremendously. Does that mean I can't be an IT? Must every introvert be socially handicapped?

INTJ would have tertiary Fi, and INTP would have Inferior Fe. So it would be reasonable for an INTJ to have friends they love/value tremendously, but it would be really hard for an INTP to make the same admission (Inferior Fe). They might have friends they spend time with to pursue particular interests, but they would be hard-pressed to admit any sort of feeling towards them unless they were under extreme stress.

Did you see how I mentioned relatively strong Si?

No, I didn't at first... but that makes more sense now. Si could lead to organization of the environment, but how do you explain their ability to deal with abstract order?

Haha, again you are referring to the writings of Virlomi? I think I did a fairly good case for INTPs being one of the best types at grammar and spelling. You seem to forget it is on average the type with the highest IQ. Sorry, but your prejudices seem to mislead you. But even if her order is relatively high for her type, it might be explained by her relatively strong Si. Conlusion is therefore that Virlomi is an INTP with a strong tertiary Si.

I wasn't talking about grammar/spelling, which we had already addressed. I was talking about paragraph organization and topic contiguity. That's a completely different subject.

 

[Splittet]

INTJ would have tertiary Fi, and INTP would have Inferior Fe. So it would be reasonable for an INTJ to have friends they love/value tremendously, but it would be really hard for an INTP to make the same admission (Inferior Fe). They might have friends they spend time with to pursue particular interests, but they would be hard-pressed to admit any sort of feeling towards them unless they were under extreme stress.

Practically I do not think the differences will be large. My guess would also be female INTPs would probably value their friends more, on average, than their male counterparts. And I mean, who doesn't value their friends? Extremely few. Also I feel you generalise too much, be open to exceptions.

I wasn't talking about grammar/spelling, which we had already addressed. I was talking about paragraph organization and topic contiguity. That's a completely different subject.

I do think you read too much into very little. Also note clarity is the essence of Ti, and doesn't clarity go well with especially topic contiguity? Writing style will vary between INTPs, as it will vary among all types, but do not be surprised if the INTP type is one of the P types most ordered in their writing, because they are always striving for clarity. Also, someone that seems to write very clearly, might give the false impression of writing in a structured manner.

Sorry if I sound harsh. I appreciate your humble nature, it gives a good climate for discussion, which is something I suck at.