Trump vs. Biden

[Z Buck McFate]

The urban/rural divide seems larger than ever, and we’re going to have to figure out as a country how to work together and appreciate each other’s differences. We are a divided nation, but there is potential for reconciliation.

This isn't directed at Jonny specifically, I'm just bouncing off this part of his post to air a grievance/concern.

I think people on the left need to modify their conception of "living together" to adapt to the best the right seems capable of doing such. We keep trying to apply a standard of "living together" that we'd find agreeable, and it's been egregiously taken advantage of. To borrow Tokenkindly's expression, we keep bringing casseroles to a knife fight.

There's an old Steve Martin joke coming to mind: "There's one thing I find completely unacceptable in marriage, and that's if she catches me with another woman. I absolutely won't tolerate it." The joke, of course, is that he's saying he won't tolerate being called on something by a partner that a partner should never have to tolerate in the first place. 'If you point out I'm doing this thing that you should rightly end our relationship over, I will end this relationship!" If said by someone who is actually conscientious and just being playful, in good faith, it can be funny because it points out the madness in simply being human and how overwhelming emotional charge can turn us into morons (both on the abusive end and the co-dependent end - human connection is a need that a great many people with endure abuse to maintain). But the thing is, it's uncanny how close it is to the abusive language that actually gets used. It's a hyperbolic example of that controlling language, and it's Trump primary vernacular. It's not TDS. People keep trying to point out how the orange man is bad because the orange man is really fucking bad.

My primary question (again, directed more at the ether of the internet than any single person), how do we learn to "get along" with people who dismiss absolutely every single attempt at pointing out how wildly bullying, divisive, manipulative, duplicitious, and solidly malignantly narcissistic Trump is as being - without any exception, every single time - merely confirmation bias on behalf of the person issuing the feedback? Trump truly is like that "you did a very bad thing" kid from the Twilight Zone, and even the clearest examples - that it seems like any sane person should be able to cede to - gets met with the same old bizarre "wow, you have a full blown case of TDS." How the fuck do you reason with that? How are we supposed to try to work together when every attempt to point out something that is absolutely unacceptable somehow invariably magically cements the notion that the opposite is true? No matter how directly observable his malignant narcissism is?

I feel like I'm not articulating this well, but I've gotta jet. Maybe I'll have a chance to iron it out later.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's interesting to note how certain trigger words Trump used throughout his campaign that just seemed like crazy whackjob ranting actually had a measurable effect on independents -- the socialist/communist and "radical left" framing seems to be the deciding factor in turning Florida red in Miami-Dade county.

It's funny because when people objected to Bernie because Trump will just paint him as a socialist, I said "he'll do that to Biden anyway", and they responded that "there's no way anyone could say that about Biden". People (usually older people) seem genuinely unaware that all Democratic candidates get called socialists and communists by Republicans.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Biden's lead is growing in Wisconsin and Michigan. Pennsylvania has no new votes counted; that probably won't be resolved until Friday. Uncertain if there's been more votes counted in Nevada or not.

 

[Virtual ghost]

A narrow win, if it sticks, might actually be better for this country than a blow-out. There was a blowout in 2008 and apart from passing a healthcare plan from a right-wing think tank, they didn't manage to do a lot of the things that were needed.

If Biden won heavily, I think that would help the Democratic establishment in doubling-down on Clintonian "Third Way" politics. A narrow win makes their case a lot weaker for that still being effective (i'm not sure how effective it ever was because Perot acted as a major spoiler for George Bush Sr. Obama's campaign message, meanwhile, was not "status quo rather than bugfuck craziness" but rather "hope and change"; I think in that case people thought they were voting for one thing when really they were voting for something else). So it really might be better in the long game and give more maneuvering room for actual progressives to take over the party.

Questionable, since you just don't have the years for more status quo. People voted for "freakin" Trump just so that they get rid of the status quo, because it is simply unsustainable. Actually US even if it puts all the progressives, centrists and conservatives at one pile it would still have a uphill battle in fixing everything on time. From geopolitical trends to debts or "energy, infrastructure and climate change" issues. This close election is probably the last thing you need right now.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Questionable, since you just don't have the years for more status quo. People voted for "freakin" Trump just so that they get rid of the status quo, because it is simply unsustainable. Actually US even if it puts all the progressives, centrists and conservatives at one pile it would still have a uphill battle in fixing everything on time. From geopolitical trends to debts or "energy, infrastructure and climate change" issues. This close election is probably the last thing you need right now.

Biden was not what we needed right now, either, though.

 

[Dreamer]

Biden was not what we needed right now, either, though.

Totally. I’m still very much at odds with the establishment Democrats at this point because they’ve effectively ignored the voters in posturing Joe and Kamala as the Democrat candidates. Kamala had such low polling numbers and even pulled out before the primaries took off, why is she on the ticket other than because it adds flavor to what is otherwise vanilla ice cream. Joe too, was lagging in many states behind many other contenders throughout the primaries. This is on top of all the stops they pulled out for Hillary in 2016.

I’m not running off hard data right now and admit I’m going off perception here, but it doesn’t surprise me the Walkaway campaign even had a minute bit of relevance for the thousands of people that have submitted their entries to the YouTube channel. Whether based off real data or perceived, those people all felt betrayed by the establishment. I can’t fault them as I’m in a similar camp.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Biden was not what we needed right now, either, though.

Perhaps, but any kind of a firm conclusion would probably be more constructive on the long run than the years of back and forth that you will get out of this result. Not to mention that this is God given for another round of election based conspiracy theories. On the other hand where I live and despite everything we have a continued stimulus since spring and unemployment is flat the whole time. What is mostly because we have administration with a clear mandate. No Senate drama, no court interventions, no status quo, no nothing. People gave the right a mandate to hold the country in one piece the best way they can and that is basically it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Perhaps, but any kind of a firm conclusion would probably be more constructive on the long run than the years of back and forth that you will get out of this result. Not to mention that this is God given for another round of election based conspiracy theories. On the other hand where I live and despite everything we have a continued stimulus since spring and unemployment is flat the whole time. What is mostly because we have administration with a clear mandate. No Senate drama, no court interventions, no status quo, no nothing. People gave the right a mandate to hold the country in one piece the best way they can and that is basically it.

I think there would be election-based conspiracy theories anyway, though. If Biden had a trifecta, I think what we'd get would be a lot like Obama's first term (hell, he was running as a continuation of Obama). We might get one or two pieces of legislation passed that's somewhat of an improvement but really isn't that progressive that Republicans would fight tooth and nail to overturn in the years to come. I suppose the one wild card in that scenario would be is the presence of folks like AOC. In short, I don't think we even have "enough time" with a Biden trifecta, realistically speaking. GOP would still find some way to question the result (which occurs to me is what the birth certificate stuff was all about), but Clinotinites would feel vindicated that triangulating is viable. Perhaps AOC and so forth would create a better outcome than that, but I'm not sure there's enough of them at this point.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It's funny because when people objected to Bernie because Trump will just paint him as a socialist, I said "he'll do that to Biden anyway", and they responded that "there's no way anyone could say that about Biden". People (usually older people) seem genuinely unaware that all Democratic candidates get called socialists and communists by Republicans.

I think it would’ve worked in Bernie’s favor

Biden May have been right to mostly ignore those accusations, but to those who believe he is a socialist, it made him appear shadier. Bernie has never been shy about elaborating on his actual ideology, and I think being upfront would have defused some of the effect of right wing propaganda on undecided moderates. It wouldn’t help him anymore with the Latinos from actual socialist countries who went for Trump, but like you said, Trump’s team were gonna label any dem one regardless and push that narrative

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think there would be election-based conspiracy theories anyway, though. If Biden had a trifecta, I think what we'd get would be a lot like Obama's first term (hell, he was running as a continuation of Obama). We might get one or two pieces of legislation passed that's somewhat of an improvement but really isn't that progressive that Republicans would fight tooth and nail to overturn in the years to come. I suppose the one wild card in that scenario would be is the presence of folks like AOC. In short, I don't think we even have "enough time" with a Biden trifecta, realistically speaking.

I simply mean that conspiracy theories now have more to chew and therefore they will get nastier. But yeah, if even open trifecta can't help you then there is evidently a problem in governing system itself. What is again linked to status quo mindset, while that is linked to the lack of multiparty system and overuse of courts. To be honest to me it never made sense that some "random" court can bloc top political decision (like travel bans as while back). Why even have elections if someone "random" can just block pretty much everything all over the map.


But that is perhaps chat for some other thread.

 

[anticlimatic]

I think it's looking better for Biden at this point, but Repubs have some fraud suspicions to cling to in order to drag this out forever. Annoying. Why I was hoping for a landslide.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is possible for Biden to get Pennsylvania. I lost my link, but it was one I googled.

If you take the total number of current votes for Biden and Trump, then estimate that million uncounted votes to share the current percentage of lead Biden has for absentee votes (Biden 78% absentee), you get these numbers for the candidates:

Biden 3,364,347
Trump 3,176,940

We won't know until Friday at the earliest. We won't know Nevada at the earliest until 12 PM EST tomorrow.

 

[FemMecha]

We won't know until Friday at the earliest. We won't know Nevada at the earliest until 12 PM EST tomorrow.

I deleted it because my numbers were wrong. These would be correct based on the estimate I described

Biden 3,364,347
Trump 3,268,862

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I deleted it because my numbers were wrong. These would be correct based on the estimate I described

Biden 3,364,347
Trump 3,268,862

It is so hard to focus on work today, haha, even though my spirits are relatively high. I'm sure lots of people are having the same problem.

 

[Dreamer]

It is so hard to focus on work today, haha, even though my spirits are relatively high. I'm sure lots of people are having the same problem.

Yup. Personally I’ve already considered Nevada a win for Biden as its gone for Democrat for some years now,but that’s just me.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yup. Personally I’ve already considered Nevada a win for Biden as its gone for Democrat for some years now,but that’s just me.

I'm more concerned about Nevada than Michigan or Pennsylvania at the moment, just because it is needed if Pennsylvania stays for Trump and the percentage of the vote in is pretty low (under 80%).

Trump must think he's already lost Wisconsin if he's going to fight there.

 

[Dreamer]

I'm more concerned about Nevada than Michigan or Pennsylvania at the moment, just because it is needed if Pennsylvania stays for Trump and the percentage of the vote in is pretty high.

Trump must think he's already lost Wisconsin if he's going to fight there.

Yaaa...hah, as you said, today will be very hard to stay focused on work indeed. Today more than ever, I’m thankful my brain is so naturally adept at mental wandering. ADHD + Ne for the win

 

[Virtual ghost]

EU frets over fallout from US election uncertainty



As expected, it is becoming clear that if US will be there that will be great, but if It will not be that is also ok.
Since regardless of all this EU has to find it's own path, especially because it is stronger block on a number of ways at this point. What is basically remaking of traditional transatlantic relationship and in a way of global order as well. Since there will be arm length distance in the Atlantic.

 

[Jaguar]

Like I said last night, the fat lady isn't singing.

 

[FemMecha]

Wisconsin went for Biden. If he gets Nevada and Michigan he will have his 270.