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Trump vs. Biden

Vendrah

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Dareyth said:
Do I believe the USA is run by a web of criminals and liars who worked together to not only change our election results to Joe Biden, but to perform a coup and seize control of our country to establish a socialist dictatorship? Then Yes, I believe in #2.

I think you are very far off here.. Like, the cold war was finished in the 90's with a loss on the Russian side; Russia is capitalist on 21th century, even if it is not the type of capitalism that the neolibs want.

Dareyth said:
Politics is ruled by Te users.
I agree with you and think that is true, and I can do a good reasoning about that. But what I must warn you that you are on the Te side of the coin - ESTJs have larger tendencies in being on the Republican side, not on the Democrat side. And my second warning is that the popular vision that Te is all about being 'objective', data, including things like being grounded and etc.. are accurate by self-report, but they are not completely accurate, that was the message I did tried to pass to some people when I asked when Te ignore data and facts. I think you might be a lot of Te on side in your opinion without even noticing - but I should really re-read Ti if I need to justify.
 

Maou

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I agree with you and think that is true, and I can do a good reasoning about that. But what I must warn you that you are on the Te side of the coin - ESTJs have larger tendencies in being on the Republican side, not on the Democrat side. And my second warning is that the popular vision that Te is all about being 'objective', data, including things like being grounded and etc.. are accurate by self-report, but they are not completely accurate, that was the message I did tried to pass to some people when I asked when Te ignore data and facts. I think you might be a lot of Te on side in your opinion without even noticing - but I should really re-read Ti if I need to justify.

You think I am ESTJ?
 

Virtual ghost

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I mean that the large special interests in this election- Wall Street, globalists, Washington/swamp, lobbyists, big tech, main stream media, academia, corporate America, etc- were all heavily influencing the election in joe Biden's favor.

Typically there is a somewhat better balance, with corporate America and Wall Street propping up Republican candidates- Washington, the media, and big tech remaining at least slightly unbiased- with academia and globalists reliabley propping up democrats.

Not this year. It was all in, all hands on deck, get rid of trump. I'm not sure how that doesn't make anyone nervous in and of itself.



I will take a bite at this.


This presumes that just if everyone attacks a single political element that this element is innocent. While in fact all this may actually indicate how bad this political element really is. It is so bad that everyone with competency of the landscape understood that this show can't continue if the country will survive.



I will be specific:


Trump is escalating tensions with China when it is very unclear if the US has the means to win this trade war. Especially since he is alienating the traditional allies.

His pandemic response is absolutely rock bottom in pretty much every way and objectively can be said he mess this up. Especially since he is actively down playing the problem. Plus he has thrown away trillions with a failed lockdown. While in fact he should have made everything possible to provide that money to the people and that they stay at home. Therefore through that he totally "polluted" the idea of a lockdown and that in the end resulted with huge drama and major economic damage.

He is taking a stabs at EU and thus he is provoking economy that makes about 18 trillion $ a year. What can cause major economic damage and loss of influence. Especially since China is actively trying to make EU more neutral in US-China dispute.

He pulled out of Iran deal, what gives Iran free hands to restart it's nuclear program. What in the end makes open war with Iran basically inevitable, even if US doesn't really have the resources for that at the moment. Since Iran is a dig in mountain country with 80+ million people and direct aid from Russia and China.

He never really took an active afford to calm things down in domestic issues and he is evidently the main factor in bring the country to the edge of civil war.

Out of the 200 countries he is the only one that pulled out of Climate change deal. What provoked quite a lot of bad publicity and loss of influence and that in general results with economic damage. The same goes for WHO and similar organizations. In a way by leaving them he only made sure that China has more of a say in all of them.

He continued to run huge deficits and with the pandemic that exploded completely out of control, while he has shown very little genuine desire to control the pandemic in the right way. What in the end resulted with serious economic downturn that really didn't have to be this deep.



I suppose I could find a few more talking points but I think this is enough. Therefore the educated or competent people at the top simply realized that he has no workable vision of the future and therefore most of them decided to go against him before he blows up the country completely. Since he really didn't give them much of a choice when you take a look at the things in more complex manner.
 

Totenkindly

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2. There is a deep web of criminals and liars who worked together to change election results so that Joe Biden would win.

Considering (1) elections are held on a state level as far as results and county/precinct level as far as actual voting, so to change a national election involves coordination of efforts at least in various states depending on how it was done and down to the precinct level if the deceptions occur on the vote rather than aggregate level and (2) a number of these states have GOP folks in charge and/or are sympathetic to Trump, yet are producing results for Biden ... and... (3) no one can provide any actual evidence in court (despite the media fraud bullhorn Trump is wielding, the court cases typically do not press coordinated fraud efforts and are about procedural issues).... and (4) Trump cannot even keep his own WH from being routinely leaked on, yet somehow this vast conspiracy has both friend and foe sworn to complete secrecy...

... well, yes, it's very implausible, to say the least.
 

Maou

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Definitely not.
There are more Te-doms around you than you realize and they might be 'absorbing' you.

The only people I talk to on a regular basis about politics is an ESTP. Otherwise, most of my friends fall into the NP catergory.
 

Red Herring

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Fact check: Story of Army raid, election servers in Germany is false

To summarize: There were no Dominion servers in Germany. There was no raid. The US Army and the Departement of Homeland Security (those bastions of socialism) also confirmed it. It's an absolutely baseless rumor started on social media (Parler seems to play a role in the spead of this deliberate disinformation, so not just 4Chan).


Also, if the god damn US Army were to do a raid in my country I'm pretty sure that would be very hard to hide from the German population. And why should they hide the raid? If the army is in on the conspiracy why raid a (nonexisting!) server center and uncover the plot? If the army is trying to uncover a plot against Trump and they found something, why hide and deny it? This sounds completely illogical.

The reason I am invested in debunking this specific piece of disinformation is that it concerns my country and a city not too far from where I live. The implication that a foreign army could just walk around and do a raid on German territory is preposterous. That is not how international law works. I think whoever started the lie just said "Frankfurt" because using a foreign place name makes it sound more sinister and harder to check for the casual reader. If the US authorities really suspected wrongdoing by a company on German territory they'd have to ask the Germans to do the raid. But I guess "German police uncovers proof Trump won" would sound weird even to hardened supporters of the president.
 

anticlimatic

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1. Trump is a Narcissist and habitual liar who is drumming up false conspiracy theories to stroke his ego and bolster his claim to victory. 2. There is a deep web of criminals and liars who worked together to change election results so that Joe Biden would win.
You mentioned Adam Schiff at some point. Are we to believe that his campaign to declare Trump illegitimately elected for 4 years (compared to Trumps 4 weeks) is because Schiff is a habitual liar drumming up false conspiracy theories? Is that the only other option besides actual Russian collusion? I'm not sure you can apply occcams razor between two choices like this.

The fact is that people make intuitive judgements and chase down evidence to vet those judgements, and if you're not going to blame people like Schiff for his intuitions, you can't blame people like D either. Schiff ran with it for four years, the least your people can do is give republications until innoguration day.
 

Maou

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Fact check: Story of Army raid, election servers in Germany is false

To summarize: There were no Dominion servers in Germany. There was no raid. The US Army and the Departement of Homeland Security (those bastions of socialism) also confirmed it. It's an absolutely baseless rumor started on social media (Parler seems to play a role in the spead of this deliberate disinformation, so not just 4Chan).


Also, if the god damn US Army were to do a raid in my country I'm pretty sure that would be very hard to hide from the German population. And why should they hide the raid? If the army is in on the conspiracy why raid a (nonexisting!) server center and uncover the plot? If the army is trying to uncover a plot against Trump and they found something, why hide and deny it? This sounds completely illogical.

The reason I am invested in debunking this specific piece of disinformation is that it concerns my country and a city not too far from where I live. The implication that a foreign army could just walk around and do a raid on German territory is preposterous. That is not how international law works. I think whoever started the lie just said "Frankfurt" because using a foreign place name makes it sound more sinister and harder to check for the casual reader. If the US authorities really suspected wrongdoing by a company on German territory they'd have to ask the Germans to do the raid. But I guess "German police uncovers proof Trump won" would sound weird even to hardened supporters of the president.

I'm sure I said the CIA, and a raid doesn't always entail breaking down doors. A CIA operation would have done secretly (happens all the time in foreign countries), or with German permission. There would be no record of it, because it would be classified, as it is a national security threat.

Also, the intelligence community seems to operate around the idea that its only illegal if you get caught. This isn't uncommon for many countries who illegally survail or enter countries illegally for their own interests. China and Russia are very good at it.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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The CIA, FBI, and NSA filed a joint report confirming there was Russian interference in the 2016 election. It wasn't an onslaught of accusations via tweets for which there was no evidence. If multiple investigating entities jointly filed reports about this 2020 election having fraud, I would absolutely consider the claim credible. This is a different scenario, and if someone is trying to cheat when losing, wouldn't they also cheat in a winning process? It isn't that every side is equally at fault, but that people who lie and cheat do it continually and in every context.

https://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/d...russian-interference-in-the-us-election/2433/
 

Red Herring

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I'm sure I said the CIA, and a raid doesn't always entail breaking down doors. A CIA operation would have done secretly (happens all the time in foreign countries), or with German permission. There would be no record of it, because it would be classified, as it is a national security threat.

Also, the intelligence community seems to operate around the idea that its only illegal if you get caught. This isn't uncommon for many countries who illegally survail or enter countries illegally for their own interests. China and Russia are very good at it.

There are different versions of the story, some saying the CIA, others the army. Google it and you'll find both, the army one being more widespread. That alone should be suspicious. My arguments re this being illogical still stand.

In any case, if there is no proof it happened it's a bad example of how 4Chan rumors can be true.
 

Stigmata

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The CIA, FBI, and NSA filed a joint report confirming there was Russian interference in the 2016 election. It wasn't an onslaught of accusations via tweets for which there was no evidence. If multiple investigating entities jointly filed reports about this 2020 election having fraud, I would absolutely consider the claim credible. This is a different scenario, and if someone is trying to cheat when losing, wouldn't they also cheat in a winning process? It isn't that every side is equally at fault, but that people who lie and cheat do it continually and in every context.

https://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/d...russian-interference-in-the-us-election/2433/

Not only that but the republican led senate judiciary committee admitted that there was meddling in the 2016 election; as you said, this wasn't just some completely unfounded accusation being tossed around casually. This isn't just political tit-for-tat being played.

Senate Intelligence Committee issues final report on Russian interference
 

ceecee

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Right, because Trump gave Dems until Inauguration Day.


It's amazing how much - please be fair and do the right thing!!! - we're hearing from conservatives now. Fuck all the way off.
 

Stigmata

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Trump told ally he's trying to get back at Democrats for questioning legitimacy of his own election

I could actually believe this. It seems right up his alley of pettiness, believing doubt was cast on the legitimacy of his presidency (which there was credible evidence of the intervention of a foreign government to aid Trump) and therefore trying to sow an equal amount of doubt about the legitimacy of Bidens's win. That would also explain his revenge tour firings of Epser and Krebs who didn't comply with his requests and were therefore in his mind unloyal.
 

Burning Paradigm

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I just caught up on the events of yesterday. So, let me get this straight; now, Rudy Giuliani is trying to tell us the Georgia recount is useless and we won't learn a damn thing because of supposedly fraudulent ballots (newsflash, waving a piece of paper in front of a camera doesn't count as evidence)? After it was Trump's team who incessantly pressed for recounts in Georgia and every damn state that flipped? Give me a fuckin' break. It just makes me laugh.

Hell, I'd be on the floor cracking up if the administration wasn't now trying to exploit partisan hacks at state and local officials and stop them from certifying legitimate results (and it's come close to working in certain cases; that should blow the lid off how dangerously fragile democracy in America is right now). Kudos to Mitt Romney for being the only GOP Senator with the cojones to call out Trump at various points (it says a lot when Mitt Romney is the moral backbone of your party), but he needs to step up and call out his GOP Senate colleagues from enabling this delusion.
 

The Cat

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I just caught up on the events of yesterday. So, let me get this straight; now, Rudy Giuliani is trying to tell us the Georgia recount is useless and we won't learn a damn thing because of supposedly fraudulent ballots (newsflash, waving a piece of paper in front of a camera doesn't count as evidence)? After it was Trump's team who incessantly pressed for recounts in Georgia and every damn state that flipped? Give me a fuckin' break. It just makes me laugh.

Hell, I'd be on the floor cracking up if the administration wasn't now trying to exploit partisan hacks at state and local officials and stop them from certifying legitimate results (and it's come close to working in certain cases; that should blow the lid off how dangerously fragile democracy in America is right now). Kudos to Mitt Romney for being the only GOP Senator with the cojones to call out Trump at various points (it says a lot when Mitt Romney is the moral backbone of your party), but he needs to step up and call out his GOP Senate colleagues from enabling this delusion.

but he wont though be cause he ultimately knows what side his bread is buttered on and it aint the american people, its his GOP Senate colleagues:dry:.
 

Burning Paradigm

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You mentioned Adam Schiff at some point. Are we to believe that his campaign to declare Trump illegitimately elected for 4 years (compared to Trumps 4 weeks) is because Schiff is a habitual liar drumming up false conspiracy theories? Is that the only other option besides actual Russian collusion? I'm not sure you can apply occcams razor between two choices like this.

The fact is that people make intuitive judgements and chase down evidence to vet those judgements, and if you're not going to blame people like Schiff for his intuitions, you can't blame people like D either. Schiff ran with it for four years, the least your people can do is give republications until innoguration day.

I don't think the two can be compared. There was evidence to consider with respect to Russian interference in the elections. That's the difference here, evidence. It didn't start with Adam Schiff's unsubstantiated intuition, it started with reports and evidence. Even though the impeachment didn't bear fruit and the Senate didn't indict the President (not a surprise, all signs indicated as such), a special counsel's indictment of 34 people in the campaign inner circle means the claims, at bare minimum, carried significant weight. Sure, this interference didn't come in the form of ballot-flipping, and it's possible Trump still wins without this sort of interference. But, there was very compelling evidence he was willing to court that kind of help to give him an edge in the election and block investigations from within his own administration looking into these crimes.

Contrast that to what's going on now; there is little to no evidence of what the Trump campaign is claiming took place with mail-in ballots, fraud, etc. Even before the election, when the administration incessantly attacked mail-in ballots and the post office, all their claims were disputed by election experts and local officials from both parties. Every claim they've brought to court so far has been proven to not be the case and taken out, again thanks to evidence presented by officials in both parties. So, what's more likely to be rooted in an unsubstantiated "intuition", the claims of Russian collusion or the fraud claims this administration is pursuing?
 
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