[MBTI General] Thinkers, prejudiced against Feelers?

[Kerik_S]

In the anime, Psycho-Pass, Japanese society is ruled by a system that scans people and essentially reads their minds to determine how much of a "criminal" they are compared to society's standards.

This system is called the Sibyl System, and I believe it reveals a bias in humanity-at-large that can actually be seen operating in typological-enthusiast circles themselves:

• Logic-above-all-else.
  ​
• "Impersonal", "objectivity" above all else.​

Usually, this is seen incarnate in the Thinking functions, making the Feeling functions take a back seat.

　

The Sibyl System

The Sibyl System can be thought of as having very logical ends, of deciding the proper functioning of society by an objective standard.　However, the actual methods of gathering information that the System uses may actually be an empathy'less version of Fe and Fi, rather than the "proper" logic functions, Te and Ti.

The main method (means) of deriving a logical "standard" that supposedly "transcends ethics" (as Sibyl itself said) may actually be a form of Fe(+Fi) rationality that is simpyl unbridled by human emotion.

The scan the Sibyl System uses to determine whether or not someone is a "criminal" defector to society-- called a "Cymatic scan"-- actually determines what someone may or may not do in any given situation, and whether their current attitudes clash with the social order.

That kind of information that the scan reads is actually sussed-out by Fe and Fi.

　
I find it interesting that, in a system that is comprised of the visions of people that tout "logical standards" that "transcend ethics", the actual "ethical" functions-- Fe and Fi-- are in a sense overlooked in their importance simply because the endgame is a supposedly "logical" decision.

　
Real Life, art imitates life:

It mirrors some of the Thinking-obsessed ideology in typology circles as a whole: Even if the "ideal mode" of rationality is "T instead of F", the most socially-oriented standard... therefore, the most pragmatic, widely-applicable theories on how to govern humanity, cannot be "sussed-out" without reading people-oriented systems in a rational manner.　And that information can't be gathered without actually having a multitude of people-- some F in a strong position (xxFx's), and some T in a strong position (xxTx's)-- to collaborate.

Even the Sibyl System itself is a collaboration of such multitudinous aptitude.

　
It's just interesting that-- in an anime where possibilities for such a "practical", "logical" system to exist-- even that system, with "logic" as its purported ends, would overlook the importance of the ethical means it uses to derive any decision-making.

　
Sibyl System is a strange conglomerate of basically-- in Socionics-- a baseline scan that reads (Accepts, in Socionic) Se and Si bodily information, combined with ethical reads on the person's attitudes (which could be seen as Accepting Fe and Fi) and projected futures (which could be seen as Producing Ne and Ni).

In the end, it produces a single directive on a case-by-case basis: A logical directive on maintaining social order, which is Producing Te and Ti.

　
In no single person can Accepting S and Producing N-- or Accepting F and Producing T-- exist simultaneously.

So, Sibyl System must rely on the rational AND irrational strengths of multiple cognitive systems ("people").

　
And, yet, we have our prejudices:

Seriously, those people who undervalue any function are so annoying.　Even high-caliber thought-experiments like the one presented in Psycho-Pass can't escape the logical inevitablity of embracing the worth of Feeling functions as rationally on-par with the importance of the Thinking functions.

Again, I think the labels "Thinking" and "Feeling" leave a lot of room for prejudice and misunderstanding that perpetuate the pre-existing prejudicial beliefs of "Thinkers" and cause "Feelers" to even feel insufficient even when they've never even heard of typology or know how to separate "ethics" from "logic" in any demonstrative way.

　
I would dare say that Fe and Fi actually don't require or cause empathy.

In their most basic forms, they can collect and generate people-oriented information without actually caring about the people's emotions.

　
Empathy Isn't Fe or Fi.

I think "empathy" is more of an irrational thing that is more the result of Fe and Fi paired with some of the irrational functions.

　
So, Fe and Fi can be just as "cold" as Te and Ti, and xxFx's can easily be sociopaths-- perhaps even more "scary" sociopaths if they can read people in an ethical sense and still remain cold.

　
The coldness-prejudice has gotten so strong that I believe some people actually take some of those (unsubstantiated) tests hoping to be labelled as sociopathic on some level.

It's gotten truly that ridiculous, that the "par excellance" of what "Thinking" is 'supposed to mean' is actually moving on from the now-tired trope of Hoping To Be Autistic, to something more severe: At Least Glamorizing Sociopathy.

　
Just some thoughts.

　
Exclusively-logical people are Patently Irrational
and delusional.

When logic is so overvalued that people actually believe that "Cold Fe and Fi" are actually not Fe and Fi at all... when logic is so overvalued that it allows the logic-user to conflate cognitive functions and confuse them, and undermine the entire coherence of the logical typological system... that shows me that being obsessed with any one group of functions to that degree is actually patently irrational which actually precludes logical reasoning in the first place.

But don't take my word for it. I'm just an F-type.　And an irrational-Dom of all types.


　

 

[á´…eparted]

The second you go to pure objectivity for the sake of truth and perfection, is the second you will never find it.

It's worth noting that, indeed Fe does not equal empathy; no function does. I actually have very little of it. Coincidentally, I frequently test as a Te dom even though I am not. Hello stereotypes!

 

[Dyslexxie]

I'm not gonna speak for any other Thinkers here other than myself, but I get really uncomfortable when people open up to me. I'm notorious for detaching completely from people who try to get close to me, and for that reason a lot of the relationships I have are what I deem fairly superficial - I'll be great friends with someone as long as we never really talk about our emotions. It's been a tough go being a fairly 'cold' person, as a woman, and as an extrovert. So yes, I guess that could be classified as prejudice to some degree.

 

[Amargith]

Often, yes

There is a certain irony to this prejudice, as well, considering they often fixate on the importance of 'Truth'. The arrogance that comes from often being that accomplished in an area that our society values highly (IQ) coupled with the lack of mastery in the emotional field (EQ) only seems to confirm their bias that other people aren't worth valuing as highly as themselves, resulting in the most obnoxious delusional state ever - and a cozy, comfy immature state that conveniently rebuffs any need for personal growth, forever dooming them to completely missing that precious Truth they so strongly advocate for.

Score.

 

[1487610420]

No point on wasting energy with inferior types

 

[Forever]

Yes I can be quite cold with people. Good to know.

I'm not gonna speak for any other Thinkers here other than myself, but I get really uncomfortable when people open up to me. I'm notorious for detaching completely from people who try to get close to me, and for that reason a lot of the relationships I have are what I deem fairly superficial - I'll be great friends with someone as long as we never really talk about our emotions. It's been a tough go being a fairly 'cold' person, as a woman, and as an extrovert. So yes, I guess that could be classified as prejudice to some degree.

Isn't that dissociation? Had there been horrible experiences with people opening up to you? And with just best intentions, you do realize you're opening up with people that you don't like opening up with others and have them open to you.

 

[Dyslexxie]

Isn't that dissociation? Had there been horrible experiences with people opening up to you? And with just best intentions, you do realize you're opening up with people that you don't like opening up with others and have them open to you.

Not at all. I've just never really been comfortable with that. Some people enjoy emotion, some don't, and I'm the latter. Don't get me wrong, I'll put up with a lot for people I care about even if I'm uncomfortable, but I don't really deal well with emotional unloading and those closest to me thankfully understand that and know not to come to me with those things.

 

[Forever]

Not at all. I've just never really been comfortable with that. Some people enjoy emotion, some don't, and I'm the latter. Don't get me wrong, I'll put up with a lot for people I care about even if I'm uncomfortable, but I don't really deal well with emotional unloading and those closest to me thankfully understand that and know not to come to me with those things.

Are you uncomfortable with really happy people? or are you uncomfortable with dramatic/negative people? If the latter, I'm sure you're just as normal as everybody else except the noble ones who don't let their emotions overwhelm them.

Edit: Removed the last sentence as you said you could stand uncomfortable situations. Although, me and you are the same on this stance, believe it or not tbh.

 

[Dyslexxie]

Are you uncomfortable with really happy people? or are you uncomfortable with dramatic/negative people? If the latter, I'm sure you're just as normal as everybody else except the noble ones who don't let their emotions overwhelm them.

Edit: Removed the last sentence as you said you could stand uncomfortable situations. Although, me and you are the same on this stance, believe it or not tbh.

No haha, I like happy people and I can deal with negative emotions as well, it's the heart to hearts that make me feel a little strange and pull away from the situation. For example, a friend I had a falling out with in the past recently contacted me on facebook trying to rekindle the friendship. This caused me some serious discomfort, thinking about how I may have to address issues I thought we'd just left behind and walked away from. She's incredibly emotional as a person and is very comfortable dropping her emotional baggage on others (part of the reason we had a falling out), and I don't know how I'll handle going through that again. I'd rather have someone yell at me and be mad at me and just resolve it that way than get touchy feely. Gahh I'm so awkward.
Anyway, not trying to derail this thread. I wish I had a better level of emotional intelligence. This is clearly a deficiency on my part and speaks volumes about me, not about Feelers (versus Thinkers).

 

[prplchknz]

I'm not gonna speak for any other Thinkers here other than myself, but I get really uncomfortable when people open up to me. I'm notorious for detaching completely from people who try to get close to me, and for that reason a lot of the relationships I have are what I deem fairly superficial - I'll be great friends with someone as long as we never really talk about our emotions. It's been a tough go being a fairly 'cold' person, as a woman, and as an extrovert. So yes, I guess that could be classified as prejudice to some degree.

well this one I was outside and there was this dude and i wave and he came over and he ended up being a total psycho with all these warrants out. the end

j/k

except that did happen

but i did not open up to you because i did not cry.

 

[Forever]

No haha, I like happy people and I can deal with negative emotions as well, it's the heart to hearts that make me feel a little strange and pull away from the situation. For example, a friend I had a falling out with in the past recently contacted me on facebook trying to rekindle the friendship. This caused me some serious discomfort, thinking about how I may have to address issues I thought we'd just left behind and walked away from. She's incredibly emotional as a person and is very comfortable dropping her emotional baggage on others (part of the reason we had a falling out), and I don't know how I'll handle going through that again. I'd rather have someone yell at me and be mad at me and just resolve it that way than get touchy feely. Gahh I'm so awkward.
Anyway, not trying to derail this thread. I wish I had a better level of emotional intelligence. This is clearly a deficiency on my part and speaks volumes about me, not about Feelers (versus Thinkers).

I find both yelling and angry just to be as repulsive to me as well, I'm like ... *meep* ok you win (in my mind I still don't agree with them) this one guy who I think is an 8w7 type was like ROAR! Don't let me just win. I'm still like you need to get ANGRY! SPEAK YOUR MIND. I'm like IDC about the issue enough to scream! (I run away and shove my face into the pillow)

..good times. The older I get the harder it is to express my emotions..

 

[Dyslexxie]

I find both yelling and angry just to be as repulsive to me as well, I'm like ... *meep* ok you win (in my mind I still don't agree with them) this one guy who I think is an 8w7 type was like ROAR! Don't let me just win. I'm still like you need to get ANGRY! SPEAK YOUR MIND. I'm like IDC about the issue enough to scream! (I run away and shove my face into the pillow)

..good times. The older I get the harder it is to express my emotions..

Haha awww, but that's a natural response I think.
I find that too unfortunately. Relating to people is a lot harder now that it was when I was younger.

 

[Forever]

Haha awww, but that's a natural response I think.
I find that too unfortunately. Relating to people is a lot harder now that it was when I was younger.

Yeah like I used to cry a lot when I was middle school and younger, then by after early college years I just been showing facial expressions, resting bitch face (go see mine [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] 's new thread), and just trying to smile more again like Kristen Stewart who says if you got to know me, I actually smile all the time. kind of like me. c:

 

[á´…eparted]

Not at all. I've just never really been comfortable with that. Some people enjoy emotion, some don't, and I'm the latter. Don't get me wrong, I'll put up with a lot for people I care about even if I'm uncomfortable, but I don't really deal well with emotional unloading and those closest to me thankfully understand that and know not to come to me with those things.

This has always been hard for me to compute (the idea that people genuinely don't like opening up to them), but that's largely because I open up to deeper matters with myself pretty quickly (there's only a small portion of things that take a long time). I understand it mentally, but I simply an unable to relate/empathize. It's sort of how I connect with people, and if they don't like that opening, I tend to get bored and not get close (usually, there are exceptions). It's also that I LIKE it when people open up to me about their deeper inner workings and ailments. I encourage them to and want them to. It depends on the person (i.e. if they turn out to be shitty or unproductive then I hate it and won't allow it), but I love to see the inner workings of other peoples brains. It's just so... interesting! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and broadens my horizons (even if it's dark heavy shit). I'd absolutely love being a clinical psychologist.

 

[Dyslexxie]

This has always been hard for me to compute (the idea that people genuinely don't like opening up to them), but that's largely because I open up to deeper matters with myself pretty quickly (there's only a small portion of things that take a long time). I understand it mentally, but I simply an unable to relate/empathize. It's sort of how I connect with people, and if they don't like that opening, I tend to get bored and not get close (usually, there are exceptions). It's also that I LIKE it when people open up to me about their deeper inner workings and ailments. I encourage them to and want them to. It depends on the person (i.e. if they turn out to be shitty or unproductive then I hate it and won't allow it), but I love to see the inner workings of other peoples brains. It's just so... interesting! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and broadens my horizons (even if it's dark heavy shit). I'd absolutely love being a clinical psychologist.

You're ridiculous attuned to other people, so I think you'd be amazing in a role like that. Theoretically I understand what you're saying and I really wish I had this ability and comfort (it really is a comfort thing for me) to relate to people in such a way. I'm not closed off or secretive by any means (I've pretty much plastered my life all over this forum), but it always feels somewhat...from a point of detachment. You described it amazingly in a post about me, that distance. Can I just have some of your emotional intelligence and people skills?

 

[á´…eparted]

You're ridiculous attuned to other people, so I think you'd be amazing in a role like that. Theoretically I understand what you're saying and I really wish I had this ability and comfort (it really is a comfort thing for me) to relate to people in such a way. I'm not closed off or secretive by any means (I've pretty much plastered my life all over this forum), but it always feels somewhat...from a point of detachment. You described it amazingly in a post about me, that distance. Can I just have some of your emotional intelligence and people skills?

Oooooh, ok this makes sense then when you explain it that way. Hmm, maybe that is the common/core reason. I have the detatchment thing as well, but since I can generally see what the appropriate thing to do is, I don't really feel uncomfortable (and if I don't know, I can usually work around it). I can see how not knowing what to do would lead to discomfort.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Feelers aren't always confident in their logical abilities, or they embarrass easily causing them to shy away from thinker type discussions, or they just don't enjoy them. For whatever reason, feelers might not get as much practice and experience in logical discussions. So, when they do decide to join discussions with thinkers, they might not keep up as well, which would cause thinkers to be prejudiced against feelers.

Some of this is also that men have a prejudice against women in math, science, and similar discussions.

 

[Virtual ghost]

You're ridiculous attuned to other people, so I think you'd be amazing in a role like that. Theoretically I understand what you're saying and I really wish I had this ability and comfort (it really is a comfort thing for me) to relate to people in such a way. I'm not closed off or secretive by any means (I've pretty much plastered my life all over this forum), but it always feels somewhat...from a point of detachment. You described it amazingly in a post about me, that distance. Can I just have some of your emotional intelligence and people skills?

As a person that had armoured concerete walls around me even by NTJ standards I can say: you just have to let it go. There can be awkwardness but that is ok because beign cut off all the time is actually worse scenario if you think about it. Yes, it is a gamble but if you are not doing it with clearly wrong people you basically have nothing too lose.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I scanned the opening post. Sorry, couldn't read all of it. I may have missed some nuance but I liked the parts that stood out.

It is interesting that on this forum, I have had interactions with a couple people where we have opposite views on lots of things, yet we connected as people. Had some common ground. I think everyone has common ground if they get past the big stuff to talk about the everyday stuff. Life, food, love, experience, etc.

The more you connect, the more your views are multi-faceted. When you see a post by someone that may have sent you over the edge, let's say you know a bit about their POV, it tempers anger or outrage into a "yeah, I disagree but I can see where that person came to that conclusion."

And that is pretty cool. Feeler or thinker. I think just having a laugh with someone can do wonders with understanding and compassion.

I sound like a dirtfoot hippie, but it takes the edge off of opinions. I wish more of us on this forum interacted as such. Would be a bit like the old days.

 

[Thalassa]

I think being overly biased against one or the other would create a troubled society. We need both to thrive as humans.

I've noticed too some T types not even realizing they're using their F instead of their T when talking about values, or relationships. Like they still think they are being logical and it's a real mess.

Personally as an Fi type I can be biased against Fe when it's immature or gone what I see as too far. Group think annoys me to a serious degree, and what I mean by that is when people blindly parrot a leader or family member, it reminds me of cults and gives me bad feelings. I also weirdly think that the Hillary Clinton campaign has been using "bad Fe" to mislead people over gender or race/ethnicity, I mean that shit is DIRTY, it makes me angry when someone manipulates a hot button social issue dishonestly for intentional deception or personal gain. It's likely why even as a leftist I really stand apart from the liberal establishment more than some people.

On the other hand, I think Fe types can either see Fi as whiny in passive types, and too feisty in more assertive Fi types. It's "inconvenience." Sometimes this is a fair judgment if the person is abusing Fi to be vindictive for no good reason, or annoyingly self centered, yet there is an inherent lack of understanding in some individuals that Fi plays an important role in clarifying and possibly changing Fe morality or ethics. Of course it's going to make certain Fe types uncomfortable even if it's not being vain and petty, and is actually revealing an inconvenient truth.

I see that much more often, maybe because I'm an Fi type. ..but yeah I occasionally see Ts, biased against F...but then there are those kind of irritating Fs, who can't seem to reason at all.