There's no such thing as motivating someone?

[Xander]

You did.

First of all, whose idea was this project? If not his, why did he come on board in the first place? If you can identify the moment when you saw his eyes light up and the wheels start turning in his head, you have a pretty good clue as to his motivation.

It's his project. His choice that started it all off. Hell he's running the project. Oh and this is a hobby project, totally optional!!

What has changed since then? (I doubt it's the temporarily extra high workload. INTJs are oxen when we believe in a project.)

The feedback which makes the project work or fail is wanting from others. I think he tried to consider motivating them and then almost gave up on everything in shock as he found himself uncertain!!

Not to burst your bubble, and I won't tell you why I say this, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the running gear thing.

Oh you should have seen them. I know the whole NT= not bothered about appearance half the time but he's the really pristine kind. His hair is always neat, his clothes pressed and fresh. But those shorts .

Mind you the cycling clothing was almost as much of a laugh. Talk about OTT for a bicycle ride across town! He looked dressed for the Tour De France!!

 

[Economica]

The feedback which makes the project work or fail is wanting from others. I think he tried to consider motivating them and then almost gave up on everything in shock as he found himself uncertain!!

Sounds not unlikely.

So why do you think the project should continue?

Oh you should have seen them. I know the whole NT= not bothered about appearance half the time but he's the really pristine kind. His hair is always neat, his clothes pressed and fresh. But those shorts .

I maintain my point. Your coworker's shorts cannot possibly be worse than the ones an otherwise appearance-conscious INTJ I know used to run in (in the city, mind you - he regularly, uh, runs into people he knows) before I went out and bought new ones for him.

 

[Xander]

Sounds not unlikely.

So why do you think the project should continue?

Cause he can't read people for love nor money and has misread the other main player in this (an ENFJ) he's also being unrealistic with one who has conflicting time commitments with college and the third member is an ESTP and wouldn't appear to give a hoot to him even if she really was interested as she can't understand it yet anyway.

(Aside from that I think it could be really good and want to give it fair chance.)

I maintain my point. Your coworker's shorts cannot possibly be worse than the ones an otherwise appearance-conscious INTJ I know used to run in (in the city, mind you - he regularly, uh, runs into people he knows) before I went out and bought new ones for him.

You know those REALLY small ones with the split up the side. I mean come on the only people who think that they look anything but hideous live in really hot countries where you have to keep cool and it's so bright everyone has their eyes closed to boot. It's just not cricket!

He did move pretty quickly through the house to reach somewhere where he could change.

 

[Economica]

So what exactly is it that you would like this guy to do that he won't do and that would make the difference between failure and success?

Regarding the battle of the shorts: Okay, you win.

 

[Xander]

So what exactly is it that you would like this guy to do that he won't do and that would make the difference between failure and success?

Simply keep the faith.

Regarding the battle of the shorts: Okay, you win.

Now don't start that. You'll alter my entire conception of INTJs

 

[Economica]

Simply keep the faith.

Doesn't he need the cooperation of the others?

Now don't start that. You'll alter my entire conception of INTJs

 

[RDF]

Whilst speaking to my father last I asked him his thoughts on the whole motivating INTJs problem. His response set me thinking.
"In the final analysis there really is no such thing as motivating someone... People motivate themselves."

It seems to me that the subject of motivation comes up most often (and works best) in the context of team leadership. That is, a leader plays on differential in rank, personal loyalty, peer pressure within the team (team dynamics), etc. to boost the performance of the team.

If it's just a question of a person trying to get a friend to do something they don't want to do, then giving your friend a big motivational speech probably won't have much effect. You probably need something more along the line of persuasion, manipulation, or maybe even inspiration.

If you're trying to motivate a friend to undertake a task, then I would tend to agree with your father. Everyone has their own mind. You work hard to get a friend on board a project; then you find out a couple days later he has changed his mind and dropped out again. If he isn't into the task, then any little obstacle is going to deter him and cause him to give up. Real motivation has to come from within. The friend has to be personally invested in the project.

So you want to get your friend invested in the project. If the friend is mature and sensible, then engage in a frank discussion of the matter and address the friend's misgivings about the project. If the friend is a bit more immature, then some manipulation might help: praise his abilities, talk about the prestige of the task, etc. If the friend is really dead-set against the task, then bribery or blackmail are probably your best bet: call in a favor, offer him money, kidnap his favorite pet and hold it hostage, or whatever.

 

[wildcat]

Whilst speaking to my father last I asked him his thoughts on the whole motivating INTJs problem. His response set me thinking.
"In the final analysis there really is no such thing as motivating someone... People motivate themselves."

Now I've thought about this for a while I have to wonder, is this really true or is it merely an NT twist to the reality and only really relevant to definitions and concepts or is it true in practice?

You cannot motivate the other because the other is a subject onto herself.

You can awaken an interest in the other. You do not motivate the other; you awaken the motive in the other. The other motivates herself out of awakened interest.

The motive of the other is not your motive.

Motive is always interest.
Interest can be motive.

 

[Xander]

Doesn't he need the cooperation of the others?

Only for as long as he gives a monkey about the project. He has the capacity to decide tomorrow that he doesn't care anyway and that he didn't really want to be involved. A true NT retreat

 

[Xander]

It seems to me that the subject of motivation comes up most often (and works best) in the context of team leadership. That is, a leader plays on differential in rank, personal loyalty, peer pressure within the team (team dynamics), etc. to boost the performance of the team.

If it's just a question of a person trying to get a friend to do something they don't want to do, then giving your friend a big motivational speech probably won't have much effect. You probably need something more along the line of persuasion, manipulation, or maybe even inspiration.

I think that's more semantics than anything though. Inspiration/ motivation, what's the difference?

If you're trying to motivate a friend to undertake a task, then I would tend to agree with your father. Everyone has their own mind. You work hard to get a friend on board a project; then you find out a couple days later he has changed his mind and dropped out again. If he isn't into the task, then any little obstacle is going to deter him and cause him to give up. Real motivation has to come from within. The friend has to be personally invested in the project.

That is similar to the ESTPs problem (she's only in the project because she wants to be included and hence can drag her heels a bit). The INTJ was the initiator of the project. It's his concept, set up and execution. He's just flagging under the weight of inertia and I'm trying to bolster him.

So you want to get your friend invested in the project. If the friend is mature and sensible, then engage in a frank discussion of the matter and address the friend's misgivings about the project. If the friend is a bit more immature, then some manipulation might help: praise his abilities, talk about the prestige of the task, etc. If the friend is really dead-set against the task, then bribery or blackmail are probably your best bet: call in a favor, offer him money, kidnap his favorite pet and hold it hostage, or whatever.

I find that perhaps one in a hundred people, probably one in a thousand as I don't tend to speak to many anyway, could actually stand up to a frank discussion about themselves as the instinct to protect themselves is too strong. I've tried such tactics before and when attempting it on NTs I tend to get a worse result than on NFs (the very people who usually take my words the worst way possible).

You cannot motivate the other because the other is a subject onto herself.

You can awaken an interest in the other. You do not motivate the other; you awaken the motive in the other. The other motivates herself out of awakened interest.

The motive of the other is not your motive.

Motive is always interest.
Interest can be motive.

So you can't force a donkey to like carrots but once you find out that they do you can dangle one in front of them?

Is that motivating them or just exciting their interest in carrots?

 

[Totenkindly]

I think that's more semantics than anything though. Inspiration/ motivation, what's the difference?

I tend to see "inspiration" as encouragement without any sort of pressure being applied -- it's all about empowering the victim recipient with energy/excitement or setting a vision for the future.

Motivation is a bit more broad... and a bit more crass. You can motivate someone by inspiring them -- or by beating them with a large stick.

That is similar to the ESTPs problem (she's only in the project because she wants to be included and hence can drag her heels a bit).

An ESTP who wears heels? hmmmm.....

I've tried such tactics before and when attempting it on NTs I tend to get a worse result than on NFs (the very people who usually take my words the worst way possible).

That is probably an accurate assessment. NTs tend to not take anything personally or keep holding it at arm's length, even when I wish they would be more responsive; NFs have tended to take what I said too much to heart or too intensely than I meant it to be.

Is that motivating them or just exciting their interest in carrots?

If you'd like to motivate me, you can dangle chocolate cheesecake on a rope in front of me. (I don't care if it's motivation or a sweet tooth; in practice, it's all the same.)

 

[Xander]

I tend to see "inspiration" as encouragement without any sort of pressure being applied -- it's all about empowering the victim recipient with energy/excitement or setting a vision for the future.

If you'd like to motivate me, you can dangle chocolate cheesecake on a rope in front of me. (I don't care if it's motivation or a sweet tooth; in practice, it's all the same.)

Sorry to cut and shut like that but it seemed appropriate.

Does the chocolate cheesecake excite your interest in stuffing yourself with chocolate cheesecake or does it motivate you to do my bidding or does it just inspire you to eat chocolate cheesecake?

Now once you've stopped thinking about chocolate cheesecake are you still motivated to answer the question?

Motivation is a bit more broad... and a bit more crass. You can motivate someone by inspiring them -- or by beating them with a large stick.

True. All impels the subject. You can inspire someone through hardship though.

An ESTP who wears heels? hmmmm.....

You're right that's just silly. She can't balance worth a damn

That is probably an accurate assessment. NTs tend to not take anything personally or keep holding it at arm's length, even when I wish they would be more responsive; NFs have tended to take what I said too much to heart or too intensely than I meant it to be.

NT=Chasing them into the cave and beating the information out of them.
NF=Back peddling so fast that time slows down

 

[ptgatsby]

Motivation is a bit more broad... and a bit more crass. You can motivate someone by inspiring them -- or by beating them with a large stick.

Hmm, I was just skimming the thread what with all the "motivation comes from inside" stuff... I was going to say.

Motivating someone is easy, really, you just aren't willing to do it. If it comes down to it, physical pain will motivate and condition you plenty well.

(Err, by "you" I mean... everyone )

 

[Totenkindly]

Does the chocolate cheesecake excite your interest in stuffing yourself with chocolate cheesecake or does it motivate you to do my bidding or does it just inspire you to eat chocolate cheesecake?

I just want chocolate cheesecake. I don't give a flying fig about the purpose of the lever you're having me press.

But sometimes it doesn't matter, does it? Depending on the task? Work quality does improve if one believes the work itself has value, but people can still accomplish a "satisfactory" level of performance simply in pursuit of a reward such as a paycheck?

Now once you've stopped thinking about chocolate cheesecake are you still motivated to answer the question?

What was the question again?

You can inspire someone through hardship though.

"Inspire" is usually positive. I can be inspired by watching someone else's perseverance through the midst of adversity.

You're right that's just silly. She can't balance worth a damn

Then again, she can punch a nice hole through your foot when she's pissed.

Motivating someone is easy, really, you just aren't willing to do it. If it comes down to it, physical pain will motivate and condition you plenty well.

True. Pain is a great motivator, it just tends to reduce the possibility of a non-pain motivator working in the future with that particular individual.

(ie., the more you beat someone, the less apt they will be to listen to you in the future unless you beat them even harder. And they might try to beat you first.)

So pain seems good as a short-term motivator, but weakens long-term compliance.

 

[ptgatsby]

True. Pain is a great motivator, it just tends to reduce the possibility of a non-pain motivator working in the future with that particular individual.

So pain seems good as a short-term motivator, but weakens long-term compliance.

It depends on the way it is applied. Mixing positive and negative punishment/reward is highly effective in behaviour modification. Simply randomize positive and negative feedback over a long enough period, then taper off the feedback... it tends to stick way better than we think.

(Course, I agree on the "beat with stick" at every deviation... it needs to be more random and mixed than that.)

The only problem with this is that it is normally very specific. You can motivate/train/condition/reinforce something in particular, but it's hard to retrain, say, a P to want closure (J). On the other hand, the military has no problem reconditioning people in such a way - if you are willing to put up with side effects, you can break someone down and rebuild them to be almost anything you want.

Anyway, motivation is normally a whole lot of previously conditioned responses to start with. Very few people brush their teeth because its "good for them", most do it because their parents made them. Once you have been conditioned, well, it's pretty hard to change (and of course, harder for some )