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The Sam Harris discussion thread

Poki

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Finally, I have some more information to share! Sam's explanation of illusion of free will is based on path-dependance. What he argues is that, for everything we see as a choice, we can regress back to events, experiences, genetic make up, culture and conditioning as the precursors of these choices. This leads to an endless regression and it is hard to see where or when we were absolutely "free" to choose. His belief in this kind of determinism is not so much science based (physical brain) as from subjective reflections and objective examination of how we make our decisions. He does not say that determinism is fatalism. Far from it, he says that there is little room for pride or shame because so much is not in out hands. He also pushes for moral responsibility in "choosing" to the extent that we can given our self as it is at the moment, to improve ourselves and help others as well. His argument is that we are an open system of our natural make up, our experiences,chance and the universe itself. Instead of seeing the world from a self-centered point of view, he encourages us to see the interdependence --- both linear/longitudinal in terms of who we were a minute ago to who we are now, and cross-sectional--as in how everything around us is interacting with us and shaping us. Here is his explanation and another video with Q&A. The best part of watching this video was that it made me feel so much compassion for people and question my need to place blame or ask for retribution.
Q&A
Thank you for asking this question: I wasn't aware of this part of his philosophy, hence my previous reply to you. I stand corrected!:)
To add to what you said. Because we are all different and see different things even the same situation leads to different results. For example some people look at parents and pick a side, try to imitate, others process and analyze their actions and consequences. Because of this we have people who are stuck as their parents, stuck fighting the parents, or living their own life. Life is more complicated then people want to believe. Most dont take into account the butterfly affect, they seem to think only a single butterfly exists or worse, no butterflies exist. Simpler the mind the less butterflies, but the more confident, the more complex the mind the more butterflies, but the less confident do to ALL paths involved.
 

erm

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I'm torn with this guy. On the one hand, he says some very sensible stuff that I don't hear said enough (like the rational conclusions to being religious, which very few people actually abide by). On the other hand his main strength is his mastery of the superficial associations with intellect (like tone, speaking style, semantics etc.), making him sound smart and informed even when he's well off base.

Either way I can't stand his fan boys. Scientists are great role models, but being so uncritical of them is completely antithetical to their purpose, even if Harris is only part-time.

I'm more torn with Dawkins, who's actually done some borderline genius work yet regularly says stupid stuff these days. Even more extreme is Nassim Taleb, who I think is an idiot-savant sometimes. There's also Steven Pinker, who I think is a great scientist, but he has the absolute worse fan boys who just can't bring themselves to question anything he says.

Mvika or anyone else, how does Harris deal with the distribution of moral authority?

The foundation is hedonism essentially.

Observe world.
Observe good and bad.
Only isolations of them so far are positive feelings and negative.
Take it from there.

It's not a tough step to see how science would have plenty of answers for that morality down to the fundamentals, especially since we'll likely be measuring conscious experience pretty directly in the coming decades.
 

Litsnob

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I am anti-theist so I generally like all of the so-called New Atheists in varying degrees. People who dislike them are either religious or are the types of people who think atheists should just be nice and tolerant and live and let live. There is no good evidence for a god, period. Sure there are people who attempt to make intellectual sounding arguments for their being one but those are full of holes. I don't have to agree with everything Sam Harris says to find him interesting and worth listening to. His speaking style is quite bland and droning. I'd rather listen to Hitchens and miss him greatly. Sam gets a little bit too spiritual for my taste but I recognise that some people need that just as they want rituals and ceremonies and rights of passage so we need people like Sam who can point out that those things are possible without having religion attached. The irony is that people who respond to spirituality and rituals and symbolism probably want a more dynamic and charismatic speaker than Sam Harris is so I am not sure how effective he will be in the long run.
 

Magic Poriferan

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If a word comes to mind for Sam Harris, I guess it would be disappointing.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Ha! Why? (I sometimes have my own reasons, just curious to others'.)

I liked him a lot when I first became familiar with him. He's an outspoken atheist, and more broadly, a scientific rationalist. He proposed a moral philosophy that was in many ways a kind of utilitarian (and I adhere to utilitarianism). I also much appreciated his call for scientists to be more involved in moral and political debates, noting that there is a vacuum, and it will be filled, and does get filled, by people who have no expertise of any kind and no idea of what they are talking about. I agree that it is imperative for more informed individuals to insert themselves into that role. Incidentally, the guy is also pretty funny in a dry way.

But my view of him has been all down hill from there. I suppose there are a couple of reasons for that.

The biggest reason is his fetish for Islam. He has grown so monomaniacal about that subject that it has seemingly overshadowed atheism as a whole for him. I went into detail about this on some other thread, don't remember which, but Harris has become anti-Islamic at the expense of atheism. Now those two things don't have to be exclusive, they shouldn't be exclusive. Islam is a religion, and an atheist should be against it in at least the same sense that they are against Christianity or any other religion. But Sam Harris has taken his hostility toward Islam to a point where he actually said that, if forced to make the choice, he would pick Benjamin Carson for president over Noam Chomsky, and it would be an easy choice. Why? Because Carson will be vigilant against Islam and Chomsky won't. That was the last straw for me. Now look, I'm not one of Chomsky's big admirers, but I would think he should easily be Harris's preference. Chomsky is an atheist, Carson is a Christian fundamentalist who has expressed at least suspicious views toward atheists, if not hostiles one. Chomsky is a generally and basically scientifically literate man. Carson, in spite of somehow being a brain surgeon, doesn't believe in evolution, that the earth is more than 6000 years old, or that climate change is real, and likes to espouse bizarre personal hypotheses on things like what the Egyptian pyramids were for. For Harris to say he'd prefer Carson is basically an admission that he will fuck everything else for the sake of his vendetta against Islam. His atheism, his rationalism, his function as a scientist and a public educator, are of secondary importance to fighting Islam. I hate that.

Of course, you could say that Harris perhaps shouldn't have been taken so literally. Well, that's another problem with him. He speaks too broadly and too soon. He makes pronouncements about things on which he clearly doesn't know better. And Harris had a rather embarrassing episode in which he actually tried to strike up a dialogue with Chomsky, and it revealed that Harris didn't actually know much about Chomsky and knew that he didn't know much about Chomsky. So why make the statements he's made about Chomsky? (and there's been more than just the one I referenced). He wrote a short book on free will, and arguably the entire thing is an example of this.

He has a habit of begging the question when he's arguing for things. I remember, I think it was in a TED talk, that he said something about how obviously misguided it is to think that children need corporal punishment, and that people should not be afraid to make strong, objective pronouncements on things that are deemed moral issues (one of his main theses, as from The Moral Landscape). The thing is, he didn't really explain why it was obviously bad. He acknowledged that the country was full of people who subscribed to this notion. Therefore it must not be that obvious. But didn't bother to go one to explain. He frequently makes points as though everyone he's talking to belongs to a close circle who already understand and agree with him. It impairs his ability to make his case.

He also entertains silly hypothetical from which he poorly extrapolates. He got into some hot water in the past for potentially justifying the use of torture. What he did to make the argument was basically use the same silly, Bush administration argument about some super urgent scenario with a ticking nuclear time bomb and so on and so forth. The point Harris seemed to miss is that while he can construct a scenario where torture is justifiable from a utilitarian standpoint, it's a scenario that has almost no chance of happening in reality and does essentially nothing to support the use of torture or contribute to our practical understanding of anything. He did that another time when discussing whether or not it would be good, maybe even morally imperative, to use neurological technology (if available) that would rewire peoples' brains to make them more moral. He said that it would be, but his position was based on a world in which nothing went wrong with the execution of this concept. Realistically, I don't know who you could possibly entrust with such a technology, who you could trust to make such changes, and such a technology is potentially extremely harmful if used in certain ways. Would letting people have this power actually have more negative than positive consequences then? For a main who promotes a moral outlook so close to utilitarianism, he's surprisingly bad at doing cost-benefit analysis.

And like Litsnob above, I also find some of his forays into the spiritual kind of shaky, but that's really an after thought compared to my other complaints.
 

onemoretime

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Harris is likely INFJ, and he does the whole Ni-Ti thing of finding one little bit of truth and slicing and dicing reality around you to fit that perceived truth, and then convincing others that they must go along. He doesn't have the sense of seeing shit that might not necessarily be there that the Ne users do.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Harris is likely INFJ, and he does the whole Ni-Ti thing of finding one little bit of truth and slicing and dicing reality around you to fit that perceived truth, and then convincing others that they must go along. He doesn't have the sense of seeing shit that might not necessarily be there that the Ne users do.

Doesn't slicing and dicing reality fall under the umbrella of "seeing shit that might not necessarily be there"? Or are you drawing a distinction between taking things that actually exist out of context, and just coming up with something that isn't there at all?

I need clarity!

3976045.jpg
 

Mole

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I adhere to utilitarianism.

It might be of interest to know there is a whole Continent which shares your adherence. At this moment I am sitting in it. And just around the corner we have named a street after the utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bentham. Yes, I have coffee in Bentham Street.

So you see Magic Poriferan, you are not all bad.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Harris is likely INFJ, and he does the whole Ni-Ti thing of finding one little bit of truth and slicing and dicing reality around you to fit that perceived truth, and then convincing others that they must go along. He doesn't have the sense of seeing shit that might not necessarily be there that the Ne users do.

I think I get what you're saying, cuz I can get caught up in my own theories and "conclusions" without considering certain angles, but I second Osprey in wanting clarification.
 

uumlau

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He also entertains silly hypothetical from which he poorly extrapolates. He got into some hot water in the past for potentially justifying the use of torture. What he did to make the argument was basically use the same silly, Bush administration argument about some super urgent scenario with a ticking nuclear time bomb and so on and so forth. The point Harris seemed to miss is that while he can construct a scenario where torture is justifiable from a utilitarian standpoint, it's a scenario that has almost no chance of happening in reality and does essentially nothing to support the use of torture or contribute to our practical understanding of anything. He did that another time when discussing whether or not it would be good, maybe even morally imperative, to use neurological technology (if available) that would rewire peoples' brains to make them more moral. He said that it would be, but his position was based on a world in which nothing went wrong with the execution of this concept. Realistically, I don't know who you could possibly entrust with such a technology, who you could trust to make such changes, and such a technology is potentially extremely harmful if used in certain ways. Would letting people have this power actually have more negative than positive consequences then? For a main who promotes a moral outlook so close to utilitarianism, he's surprisingly bad at doing cost-benefit analysis.

Well, that's where Utilitarianism gets you. It all sounds good when you're like, "Yeah, let's maximize everyone's happiness." But it tends to fall flat in practice.

I think that's mainly because the human psyche is deontological in practice. It records absolute right and wrong, not utilitarian considerations. Jonathan Haidt goes into wonderful detail about this, how even many atheists cannot be made to sign away their soul. (Many do, of course, but a huge fraction just cannot, and cannot give a reason.)

Most core morality is of this "cannot give a reason" variety, and that lends itself to deontology, not utilitarianism.

A secondary reason I find Utilitarianism problematic is that "happiness" is ill defined. Most people know what they THINK will make them happy, but in practice, they are often wrong. They think they'll be happy if they get a million dollars, find their ideal partner in life, have children, win the state championship, etc. People who hunt for happiness tend not to find it.

A tertiary reason I think Utilitarianism falls flat is that it's not so good at considering how different humans value many different things, and that "maximizing happiness" is plagued by the fact that people tend to want contradictory things. And not just a little bit contradictory, but a lot. Thus any Utilitarian argument is often forced to choose one set of values over another, or otherwise never be considered as an option by those who hold either of the competing options.

This isn't to say that there is no role for Utilitarianism. Sometimes, it is TIME to adjust some deontological rule or another, especially as technology and infrastructure allow civilization ever more choices. Utilitarianism can be helpful for choosing between different deontologies. At the same time, though, certain deontological considerations must always apply. For example, one can maximize happiness by killing all the unhappy people. You'd be amazed at how suddenly happy people will report themselves to be when that kind of policy is implemented. :devil:
 

Ursa

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Well, that's where Utilitarianism gets you. It all sounds good when you're like, "Yeah, let's maximize everyone's happiness." But it tends to fall flat in practice.

I think that's mainly because the human psyche is deontological in practice. It records absolute right and wrong, not utilitarian considerations. Jonathan Haidt goes into wonderful detail about this, how even many atheists cannot be made to sign away their soul. (Many do, of course, but a huge fraction just cannot, and cannot give a reason.)

Most core morality is of this "cannot give a reason" variety, and that lends itself to deontology, not utilitarianism.

I agree with the essence of your points here, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]. As a matter of technicality, the term you probably want is moral sentimentalism. Deontology is actually based in strict reason. Kant's stringent Groundwork on the Metaphysics of Morals, for example, is the poster child for deontology. If concepts such as permission, obligation and duty fall to the side of what feels right, then that's moral sentimentalism talking. It's a fine distinction.
 

uumlau

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I agree with the essence of your points here, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]. As a matter of technicality, the term you probably want is moral sentimentalism. Deontology is actually based in strict reason. Kant's stringent Groundwork on the Metaphysics of Morals, for example, is the poster child for deontology. If concepts such as permission, obligation and duty fall to the side of what feels right, then that's moral sentimentalism talking. It's a fine distinction.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I would suggest that if a theory of morality ignores obligation/duty etc. from moral considerations, it's a theory of doing whatever the fuck you want, not morality.

:sage:
 

Ursa

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Not to put too fine a point on it, I would suggest that if a theory of morality ignores obligation/duty etc. from moral considerations, it's a theory of doing whatever the fuck you want, not morality.

:sage:

No such thing as too fine a point when it comes to ethics and morality. Deontology argues for a reason-based theory of obligation and duty. Moral sentimentalism is more variable, and may argue for feelings-based theories of obligation and duty. For example, "If I don't return this lost wallet, I will feel bad." Or, "Telling the truth feels like the right thing to do." Even the sense of moral indignation people may receive from a man-made tragedy may play a role in moral sentimentalism.

Do you read the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy? It's good stuff - and verified by my professors back when I was a rosy-cheeked philosophy major: "Moral Sentimentalism" versus "Deontological Ethics" are the pertinent articles here. The SEP seems right up your alley.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Well, that's where Utilitarianism gets you. It all sounds good when you're like, "Yeah, let's maximize everyone's happiness." But it tends to fall flat in practice.

Harris's problem is entirely independent of utilitarianism. He's just bad with figuring out realistic contingencies or determining what is or isn't analogous. His problem, at the root, is more positive, but it impairs all of his normative judgments.

I think that's mainly because the human psyche is deontological in practice. It records absolute right and wrong, not utilitarian considerations. Jonathan Haidt goes into wonderful detail about this, how even many atheists cannot be made to sign away their soul. (Many do, of course, but a huge fraction just cannot, and cannot give a reason.)

That's not necessarily relevant. The human mind also tends toward a lot of cognitive biases that get in the way of peoples' ability to do logic or math, but that doesn't undermine the validity of logic and math. And I think practically everyone proposing a system of morality implicitly acknowledges that human beings are not predisposed to do the most moral thing 100% of the time. If they were, there'd be no point in the topic of morality existing. So the fact that people do not have a predisposition to thinking in a utilitarian fashion does not mean it is wrong.

Most core morality is of this "cannot give a reason" variety, and that lends itself to deontology, not utilitarianism.

Truth is, for most people, positive beliefs tend to be of a "cannot give a reason" variety as well.

A secondary reason I find Utilitarianism problematic is that "happiness" is ill defined. Most people know what they THINK will make them happy, but in practice, they are often wrong. They think they'll be happy if they get a million dollars, find their ideal partner in life, have children, win the state championship, etc. People who hunt for happiness tend not to find it.

But that's not exactly a flaw of utilitarianism, is it? That's not saying that the desired end is something other than happiness, that's just saying that people kind of suck at getting to it. They might be a lot better at it if more of them were utilitarians. :D More specifically, if they'd actually do cost-benefit analysis, which I find a shocking amount of people don't.

A tertiary reason I think Utilitarianism falls flat is that it's not so good at considering how different humans value many different things, and that "maximizing happiness" is plagued by the fact that people tend to want contradictory things. And not just a little bit contradictory, but a lot. Thus any Utilitarian argument is often forced to choose one set of values over another, or otherwise never be considered as an option by those who hold either of the competing options.

This isn't much of a problem for utilitarianism. All that's necessary is to believe that people can feel happiness and happiness is good. How they achieve that is fairly flexible. One person likes vanilla, another likes chocolate. That is fine. Nothing about utilitarianism dictates that chocolate is definitely the thing that makes people happy and not vanilla. Now, sometimes, contradictions do seem to exist between people. I suspect, not nearly as often as people think, because of the above problem about people being confused about happiness vs what they think will make them happy.

Still, it does happen, and at that point the conflict is to be resolved in whichever way best serves what is sometimes called the pleasure principle. And yeah, sometimes that results in something that falls overwhelmingly on the side of one party in the conflict. I don't actually see what's inherently wrong with that for a moral system. What's more, I can think of no moral system that circumvents that problem. Deontological ethics certainly don't. I'd say utilitarianism does a better job here in that it is more flexible in its analysis of the situation and done more in the service of an actually, great consequence.

This is a thing I often find. Utilitarianism is limited. Of course it is. But because of that, you can make utilitarianism sound really bad if you only talk about utilitarianism, as if it were on trial. But when utilitarianism is compared to other systems of morality, the alternatives always strike me as quite inferior.

This isn't to say that there is no role for Utilitarianism. Sometimes, it is TIME to adjust some deontological rule or another, especially as technology and infrastructure allow civilization ever more choices. Utilitarianism can be helpful for choosing between different deontologies.

I'd say the only way to even do that is to stop being true deontologist, because you'd have to realize that your deontological rules are not actually the root of moral good. And if you are doing meta-analysis of which deontological system to take in a utilitarian way, you are tacitly acknowledging that your morality is really utilitarian in nature. At this point, your deontology is more like law than morality, and the actual morality behind it is utilitarianism.

At the same time, though, certain deontological considerations must always apply.

Give one example. Because the thing you said below doesn't actually state a deontological rule.

For example, one can maximize happiness by killing all the unhappy people. You'd be amazed at how suddenly happy people will report themselves to be when that kind of policy is implemented. :devil:

That's silly. You are not maximizing happiness by killing unhappy people. You are removing whatever happiness they have and all the potential to be happy that they have. Think of happiness like a thing that really exists. It's unintuitive, but it in fact this must be the case. It must really be a thing in your brain, which does physically exist. We don't know exactly how it works, but we don't need to know that yet to know that in some physical sense the thing that amounts to what we call happiness is real. If you look at it that way, then you can't do your aforementioned trick.
 

uumlau

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That's silly. You are not maximizing happiness by killing unhappy people. You are removing whatever happiness they have and all the potential to be happy that they have. Think of happiness like a thing that really exists. It's unintuitive, but it in fact this must be the case. It must really be a thing in your brain, which does physically exist. We don't know exactly how it works, but we don't need to know that yet to know that in some physical sense the thing that amounts to what we call happiness is real. If you look at it that way, then you can't do your aforementioned trick.

I'm deliberately being silly. :devil:

But really, it's a choice in how you measure happiness. By your logic, having 10x as many people, but only half as happy, is better than having half as many people being ten times as happy.
 

onemoretime

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Doesn't slicing and dicing reality fall under the umbrella of "seeing shit that might not necessarily be there"? Or are you drawing a distinction between taking things that actually exist out of context, and just coming up with something that isn't there at all?

I need clarity!

3976045.jpg

I think I get what you're saying, cuz I can get caught up in my own theories and "conclusions" without considering certain angles, but I second Osprey in wanting clarification.

Ne doesn't bother with silly questions like "does it actually exist" to let Ti consider whether or not something is useful, or pointing to some greater truth about reality. Ni remains grounded in Se. That's why you can see xNTPs talking about a very abstract form of "God" as a useful construct for discussing phenomenological issues (e.g. "God doesn't play dice", even if Einstein was wrong on that one).

Also, UTILITY MONSTERS
 

Magic Poriferan

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I'm deliberately being silly. :devil:

But really, it's a choice in how you measure happiness. By your logic, having 10x as many people, but only half as happy, is better than having half as many people being ten times as happy.

We're talking about ethics. All we're talking about here, really, is your choice of measure.

Anyway, the measurement I proposed seems to me, at least, to be the one that makes the most sense. Also has the nice effect of actually putting a value on life, which some forms of utilitarianism are faulted for not doing.

Yes, I suppose that would follow, however there's some ambiguity here. I question what being 10x as happy would even mean. Unfortunately, we are not in a scientific place where we can really measure this stuff beyond dubious methods like self-reporting scales who's flaws are myriad. I can say, with almost complete certainty, that there is some limit, somewhere, on how happy one person can be. That much is just an obvious fact of reality. And there has to be a floor on how unhappy they can be. And presumably there's some degree of granularity here, (Planck happiness? :laugh:)But the point is that there might be relatively little practical significance to the idea of so-and-so being 10 times as happy as what's-her-face. I wouldn't even rule out a boolean approach being better.

As an aside, this would also negate the utility monster.
 
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