The Rings of Power (the LoTR TV show)

[The Cat]

Yay?

The Rings of Power Season 2 Begins Production in the U.K.

Prime Video's hit series will move locations for most of the second season.

movieweb.com

I'm going to be real. I'm going to be watching it with this mindset:

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm going to be real. I'm going to be watching it with this mindset:

I never got to play him, but in the 80s I remember creating an elf in Finarfin's lineage named Fingolden.

This show is all sandbox.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Yay?

The Rings of Power Season 2 Begins Production in the U.K.

Prime Video's hit series will move locations for most of the second season.

movieweb.com

The article states they are moving production to England to save money. That also means even more CGI and other cost cutting moves, which seems odd given the show budget. The show clearly didn't spend budget on actors or writers.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think the actors could work IF there was actual better cohesion between writers and directors so that the directors could better direct them. What's the vision?

It kinda feels like they were all tossed into the show with a minimum of instruction and the performances are generally not contributing to anything larger. (Plus, sure, there are a few casting problems. Like, what is the vision for Gil-Galad, a warrior who supposedly faces down Sauron and leads an army? Whoever this guy is, he doesn't seem to fit -- or isn't being directed well.)

Again, back to the writing and the vision for this show. what the hell is it?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I

I think the actors could work IF there was actual better cohesion between writers and directors so that the directors could better direct them. What's the vision?

It kinda feels like they were all tossed into the show with a minimum of instruction and the performances are generally not contributing to anything larger. (Plus, sure, there are a few casting problems. Like, what is the vision for Gil-Galad, a warrior who supposedly faces down Sauron and leads an army? Whoever this guy is, he doesn't seem to fit -- or isn't being directed well.)

Again, back to the writing and the vision for this show. what the hell is it?

Both showrunners are JJ Abrams protégés. So they just do what they were taught, with loosely connected set pieces in lieu of character development and vision. And spending lots of money.

 

[Totenkindly]

Both showrunners are JJ Abrams protégés. So they just do what they were taught, with loosely connected set pieces in lieu of character development and vision. And spending lots of money.

It's a shame. I liked JJ in the early years (Lost, MI3, the Star Trek first reboot film), I still do like Super 8, but his inadequacies have seemed to just get more and more glaring as time passes. I haven't decided which one has had a worse decline -- him or Shyamalan. (I shall not speak of the Star Wars debacle.)

 

[Totenkindly]

So E7:

I won't say the show doesn't have a few touching moments. It's just that they tend to be thrown in for emotional impact without making sense and/or without proper setup.

I'll pick a small one that isn't really spoilery.

Harfoots get to their next migration stop to find it all burned down presumably from a random meteor from the volcano which I don't think we see anywhere and where nothing else in the nearby area seemed burned by debris although I guess there is smoke over the horizon. (*eyeroll* At least I think that is what happened. It's also accomplished by some amazing line about how there were rumors through their lore of "mountains to the south that could spit fire-rock, that go to sleep sometimes for hundreds of years only to wake again when a new evil is rising" dum dum DUMMMMMMMM!!!)

Tall Guy tries to heal the burned apple trees and seemed to fail, and he is sent over the ridge to go to Tall Man city on his own. Later all the apples rejuvenate (so he DID it!), but that night Three Evil People in White and No Eyebrows show up tracking him and set the entire village of wagons on fire before leaving, leaving the Harfoots screwed yet again. (at least I think the Harfoots purposefully sent them in the wrong direction.)

After some heartfelt emotional speech about how Harfoots stick together (again, after it was clear they had a "All Harfoots left behind on the trail" policy during migration), the two girls insist they are going, and then the leader's wife makes him go with her since he's a Trailmaster and they'll need his guidance, as to "warn Tall Guy" that the Evil No-Eyebrows folks are coming. While the speech was well-done, it didn't mesh with the Harfoots past behavior + sending your leader off on a wild goose chase to help Tall Guy when the whole community is hard-up for shelter + no food + in danger is just really dumb.

Meanwhile, on the other side of things, the dwarves are doing the exact opposite and being complete asshats when it would benefit them to assist their allies -- although their current King does have a point in hindsight about being so resistant to change, since we all know what lurks in the bowels of Moria (and this episode shows us briefly). But his behavior in the moment after giving such a glowy speech about his expectations for his son seem ridiculous.

There's also a repeated moment where Galadriel gives her sword to Theo, who has no idea how to use one, and now she's alone on the road with no weapon and a dying Halbrand who desperately needs medical attention. Like, what does she care about inspiring a kid who looks like the offspring of The Albino ("Princess Bride") by giving him her only weapon?

There are many more, but basically there's a lot of behavior that seems inspiring in the moment, yet conflicts with any real long-term character arcs; it's all dictated by the emotions of the scene and it often thus comes across as contrived or false.

Oh, another doozy to prove once and for all that this is not Tolkien's timeline:

Galadriel insinuates Celeborn is dead. It's not 100% certain, he's just been missing a very very long time after marching off to war, so there's a decent chance a show like this will suddenly have him pop up somewhere, but I'm not really aware of anything like that in the books. They were married and together, typically mentioned together in any battles Galadriel was part of.

 

[highlander]

I have read some of the comments and see the poor audience ratings on Rotton Tomatoes. Honestly, I don't understand the reason for all the criticism. I read the Hobbit three times and the Lord of the Rings twice as a child. As a freshman in high school, I made a diorama box of sorts with the scene where Frodo held up the light of Galadriel in the cave. I'm not obsessed with it or anything but for its time, it was excellent. I've seen the movies probably four times and own the standard as well as extended-cut versions.

As to this show, I like the story, the characters, and the visual effects are absolutely stunning. The idea of it is awesome and appeals to me a great deal. I like the actors and don't expect them to be a mirror image of what's in the movies. I don't expect it to compare to the movies at all. It's a TV series. I'm just a plain and simple guy though and I really enjoy it. In my opinion, it's much better than the House of the Dragon series though not as good as the earlier Game of Thrones seasons. The only thing that bothers me is how the racial diversity is awkward and out of context but that seems to be an affliction of all such things these days.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't think anyone here is comparing them to the movies or expecting them to be Peter Jackson (ALTHOUGH -- they specifically took elements of the film and thus invite comparison. Like, they could have redone the Balrog design, but nope -- they just ripped it off Jackson.)

At least the visual and audial elements are decent.

I've read The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit a number of times, as well as The Silmarillion (my parents got it for me when I was in fifth grade, I still have my copy), and I own a ton of Christopher Tolkien's assorted books annotating his father's notes. This show is totally and blatantly fan fiction that is superficially using Tolkien as an audience draw. it could have still been something even with that happening, but the writing itself is inane even when it has an occasional heartfelt moment -- the best moments don't fit into the bigger arcs of the writing, it's all a confusing mess on what it's trying to accomplish. A lot of the time, when there are interesting choices to be made, the one chosen scans as odd.

I do find it enjoyable as humor, although I know it wasn't meant that way. It is easily better than MTV's steamy bastardization of Terry Brook's "Shannara" material, where the first book was a total ripoff of Tolkien ("The Sword of Shannara") but at least became its own thing quickly. In that vein, at least it's in good company. There are a ton of book series that just did not make the conversion to screen -- Earthsea, Shannara, Percy Jackson, even Wheel of Time, etc., all kind of failed. I think Harry Potter is the biggest franchise that actually composed itself well on the screen and was fairly decent, even if book readers often liked the books better.

 

[The Cat]

I don't think anyone here is comparing them to the movies or expecting them to be Peter Jackson (ALTHOUGH -- they specifically took elements of the film and thus invite comparison. Like, they could have redone the Balrog design, but nope -- they just ripped it off Jackson.)

At least the visual and audial elements are decent.

I've read The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit a number of times, as well as The Silmarillion (my parents got it for me when I was in fifth grade, I still have my copy), and I own a ton of Christopher Tolkien's assorted books annotating his father's notes. This show is totally and blatantly fan fiction that is superficially using Tolkien as an audience draw. it could have still been something even with that happening, but the writing itself is inane even when it has an occasional heartfelt moment -- the best moments don't fit into the bigger arcs of the writing, it's all a confusing mess on what it's trying to accomplish. A lot of the time, when there are interesting choices to be made, the one chosen scans as odd.

I do find it enjoyable as humor, although I know it wasn't meant that way. It is easily better than MTV's steamy bastardization of Terry Brook's "Shannara" material, where the first book was a total ripoff of Tolkien ("The Sword of Shannara") but at least became its own thing quickly. In that vein, at least it's in good company. There are a ton of book series that just did not make the conversion to screen -- Earthsea, Shannara, Percy Jackson, even Wheel of Time, etc., all kind of failed. I think Harry Potter is the biggest franchise that actually composed itself well on the screen and was fairly decent, even if book readers often liked the books better.

I was really hoping earth sea was gonna take off...but then I was hoping seaquest was gonna....differently...too. As long as it translates to D&D its a good show/movie...which tbh i s the only reason i watch mcu stuff is to mine for D&D. I like to imagine what the pcs rolled based on what happens on the screen.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think anyone here is comparing them to the movies or expecting them to be Peter Jackson (ALTHOUGH -- they specifically took elements of the film and thus invite comparison. Like, they could have redone the Balrog design, but nope -- they just ripped it off Jackson.)

At least the visual and audial elements are decent.

I've read The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit a number of times, as well as The Silmarillion (my parents got it for me when I was in fifth grade, I still have my copy), and I own a ton of Christopher Tolkien's assorted books annotating his father's notes. This show is totally and blatantly fan fiction that is superficially using Tolkien as an audience draw. it could have still been something even with that happening, but the writing itself is inane even when it has an occasional heartfelt moment -- the best moments don't fit into the bigger arcs of the writing, it's all a confusing mess on what it's trying to accomplish. A lot of the time, when there are interesting choices to be made, the one chosen scans as odd.

I do find it enjoyable as humor, although I know it wasn't meant that way. It is easily better than MTV's steamy bastardization of Terry Brook's "Shannara" material, where the first book was a total ripoff of Tolkien ("The Sword of Shannara") but at least became its own thing quickly. In that vein, at least it's in good company. There are a ton of book series that just did not make the conversion to screen -- Earthsea, Shannara, Percy Jackson, even Wheel of Time, etc., all kind of failed. I think Harry Potter is the biggest franchise that actually composed itself well on the screen and was fairly decent, even if book readers often liked the books better.

I watched a preview of an episode.

Does Sauron go around around introducing himself to everyone as super evil lord Sauron? Because it sure looked that way from the preview for one of the episodes.

Which pisses me off to no end and made me lose interest in the series which I still haven't watched. No Annatar, lord of gifts? Granted Ar-Pharazon knew who he was but he "had a form that was fair to look upon". If people go around following this obviously evil thing it makes them look dumb as hell which just makes your show bad.

I know they didn't have the rights to Akaballeth which is the longest thing Tolkien actually wrote about the Second Age as far as I know, but it would be a major thorn in my craw if he's just a cackling villain everyone seems to listen to for some reason.

 

[The Cat]

I watched a preview of an episode.

Does Sauron go around around introducing himself to everyone as super evil lord Sauron? Because it sure looked that way from the preview for one of the episodes.

Which pisses me off to no end and made me lose interest in the series which I still haven't watched. No Annatar, lord of gifts? Granted Ar-Pharazon knew who he was but he "had a form that was fair to look upon". If people go around following this obviously evil thing it makes them look dumb as hell which just makes your show bad.

I would watch a thing about that all on its own. I'm fascinated af by the sexy fair Sauron phase before the fall of Numenor. Jim Rash could play the role I think quite well. Or the guy who played Benjamin Linus. Though I could see a James Spader type chewing the role a bit too. Heath Ledger would have been good for that role...*ages visibly* ah shit. I have to stop now.

 

[highlander]

I watched a preview of an episode.

Does Sauron go around around introducing himself to everyone as super evil lord Sauron? Because it sure looked that way from the preview for one of the episodes.

Which pisses me off to no end and made me lose interest in the series which I still haven't watched. No Annatar, lord of gifts? Granted Ar-Pharazon knew who he was but he "had a form that was fair to look upon". If people go around following this obviously evil thing it makes them look dumb as hell which just makes your show bad.

I know they didn't have the rights to Akaballeth which is the longest thing Tolkien actually wrote about the Second Age as far as I know, but it would be a major thorn in my craw if he's just a cackling villain everyone seems to listen to for some reason.

There is an elf/orc named Adar who seems to be the main villain but at the moment, it is unclear if he is Sauron. Galadriel seemed to think he was not.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I think the problem is that they decided to twist up everything and make Galadriel the main character when it doesn't fit.

For those who don't know the real story, it might be fun. But for those who went into the rest of Tolkien’s writings it just is wrong. It isn't even good fanfic.

A large portion of published fantasy over the last 50 years is Tolkien fanfic, clearly derivative. Some is good and some is ghastly.

This show was bad from the beginning and the attacking the fans is an attempt to cover for poorly written it is. The showrunners even ignored Bezos' advice. He should fire his executive in charge.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There is an elf/orc named Adar who seems to be the main villain but at the moment, it is unclear if he is Sauron. Galadriel seemed to think he was not.

That I'm fine with if it's him. My main thing is that he needs to be "fair to look upon".

 

[highlander]

I think the problem is that they decided to twist up everything and make Galadriel the main character when it doesn't fit.

For those who don't know the real story, it might be fun. But for those who went into the rest of Tolkien’s writings it just is wrong. It isn't even good fanfic.

I guess I disagree. There are a lot of characters to explore in the Lord of the Rings. I think they are slowly but surely covering the story of the leaders of the elves, the dwarves, and man. Galadriel was an interesting and mesmerizing character in the Lord of the Rings movies so I think having her as a primary character seems quite logical from that perspective.

As to the real story, maybe you are talking about The Silmarillion. It never felt like a "real" Tolkien book to me. Reading it was like watching paint dry. Since I was never interested in it, that may be where we disagree. I think there is some issue where the show's producers were not allowed to use content from that book which might be a fundamental flaw in the concept of how the show was developed.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I guess I disagree. There are a lot of characters to explore in the Lord of the Rings. I think they are slowly but surely covering the story of the leaders of the elves, the dwarves, and man. Galadriel was an interesting and mesmerizing character in the Lord of the Rings movies so I think having her as a primary character seems quite logical from that perspective.

As to the real story, maybe you are talking about The Silmarillion. It never felt like a "real" Tolkien book to me. Reading it was like watching paint dry. Since I was never interested in it, that may be where we disagree. I think there is some issue where the show's producers were not allowed to use content from that book which might be a fundamental flaw in the concept of how the show was developed.

It isn't that they were not allowed to use content from other books. It is that they completely changed story lines, story arcs, characters, themes, etc. from what they had.

Amazon did the same thing with WoT, so I am not too surprised.

I am totally fine with the increased diversity. I would have preferred for the writers to just create mostly new characters in the universe and tell their stories. There was so much to expand. Instead they did this......

 

[highlander]

It isn't that they were not allowed to use content from other books. It is that they completely changed story lines, story arcs, characters, themes, etc. from what they had.

Amazon did the same thing with WoT, so I am not too surprised.

I am totally fine with the increased diversity. I would have preferred for the writers to just create mostly new characters in the universe and tell their stories. There was so much to expand. Instead they did this......

This is what I read: Is Rings of Power Based On Silmarillion

"So, is The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power based on The Silmarillion? No, the new series is not based on The Silmarillion. Amazon only purchased rights to The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and its appendices. As a result, LotR: The Rings of Power TV series is based exclusively on Tolkien’s writings from those works.

While The Silmarillion includes a huge amount of expanded lore, the appendices published in The Return of the King (the third LotR book) are also pretty extensive.

Before The Silmarillion was ever published, the appendices offered deep insight into the wider universe and histories of Middle-Earth. This has allowed Amazon to produce a series without having to delve into The Silmarillion."

I don't remember getting into the appendixes in The Return of the King but last time I read it had to be in High School.

 

[Totenkindly]

Does Sauron go around around introducing himself to everyone as super evil lord Sauron? Because it sure looked that way from the preview for one of the episodes.

Sauron really hasn't been identified yet. There is speculation of maybe 3-4 characters that COULD be Sauron in disguise. (Halbrand, The Stranger, Adar... and then there was a stranger in white robes who looked evil in the trailers -- but I don't think that is Sauron, it is part of a trio looking for The Stranger).

This week I saw a joke Tweet about how it must be Galadriel.

Which pisses me off to no end and made me lose interest in the series which I still haven't watched. No Annatar, lord of gifts? Granted Ar-Pharazon knew who he was but he "had a form that was fair to look upon". If people go around following this obviously evil thing it makes them look dumb as hell which just makes your show bad.

That is why people suspected Halbrand, since he was interested in smithy stuff in Numenor, but then he seems more human lately.

There's no cackly Sauron figure at this point. He probably won't be identified for some time and maybe hasn't even appeared yet.

That I'm fine with if it's [Adar]. My main thing is that he needs to be "fair to look upon".

Well, he's not. His face is pretty scarred, and he hangs with orcs like a father figure, and he looks foul (and I'm not sure feels fair).

 

[Totenkindly]

I was really hoping earth sea was gonna take off...but then I was hoping seaquest was gonna....differently...too. As long as it translates to D&D its a good show/movie...which tbh i s the only reason i watch mcu stuff is to mine for D&D. I like to imagine what the pcs rolled based on what happens on the screen.

Well, just to be clear, any Earthsea adaptation was disavowed by LeGuin. The anime one has almost nothing to do with her books (Iike literally, I'm not even sure how it was called an adaptation, because you can't even recognize the plot), and the live action one was just really awful and didn't capture anything close to the essence of her books.

LeGuin was diverse before all this push for diversity. (I read them in the 70's.) Earthsea was set in an archipelago, and all the main characters had skin hues from red to dark black. The Khargish lands were white (Tenar, the protagonist of the second book, was white skinned and dark-haired) and originally viewed as a strange land with strange dark gods. Leguin then veered into pushing back against the patriarchy of the wizards on Roke. Her later earthsea books were almost more fascinating than the well-known first three. But hey, she was an avowed feminist back in the golden era.