The Rings of Power (the LoTR TV show)

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The more I learn of this the less I want to see it.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm hoping they pull this off... although the more I hear about it (or don't hear about it), I start to wonder. I'm a little disturbed that Cogman has already departed, he was one of the few good influences on GoT in its final few seasons and wrote the only final-season episode that even mattered.

(GoT was such a great experience for four seasons, and then it burned me so bad that I'm loathe to invest so much in a TV show again for that long. It's amazing how it went from top notch to total flop. Don't these guys know that you gotta stick the landing, even if you screw up the approach?)

Anyway... I think some of the casting has been good for this LotR series, but I have no idea what it's about really (in terms of actual plot lines), who the characters are, and what is going on or when it is going to release. Hearing they've already shot two episodes, now are recasting a character, and we don't even know anything about the series, well...

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The track record for Tolkien adaptations isn't so great.

The Jackson LotR Trilogy extended cut was pretty good, improving on a lot of problems they had created editing it down for the theatrical versions.

The original animated Hobbit movie was pretty shitty and left a lot out to keep it to a kid friendly running time.

The LotR animated movie from the late 70s was incomplete. The Rankin Bass RotK adaptation was also incomplete

The Jackson Hobbit trilogy was overlong and should have been edited down to one 3.5 hour long film. I'd love to see someone do a fan edit that cuts it down and keeps it truer to the novel

Maybe they'll surprise us and hit it out of the park with this one, but I'm skeptical.

Come to think of it, fantasy film adaptations in general don't have a great track record. Eragon, Narnia, etc

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm interested in it just because it's exploring the second age, which Tolkien never wrote that much about. Most of what we do have from him about the second age is from Numenor, and we have almost nothing from Middle Earth itself.

 

[Totenkindly]

The Jackson LotR Trilogy extended cut was pretty good, improving on a lot of problems they had created editing it down for the theatrical versions.

I agree that the Extended Editions are the definitive cut of the films. I never watch the Theatricals anymore. I still have issues with some of the things Jackson did, but definitely the Extended Edition is better.

The original animated Hobbit movie was pretty shitty and left a lot out to keep it to a kid friendly running time.

Aw come on. That movie is part of my childhood (I can still quote much of the soundtrack, with inflection) and is the sole reason I actually started reading Tolkien. Plus it also got me into Rankin-Bass and watching Thundercats!

But fine. Yeah, I admit that there are some goofy elements to it. The songs were good, though. And John Huston and the other voice actors like Paul Frees and Orson Bean, etc.

The LotR animated movie from the late 70s was incomplete. The Rankin Bass RotK adaptation was also incomplete

Those films were kind of dogs. I dunno, I am not really a Bakshi fan. He's kind of too 60-70's drug-trippy for me, i'm more of a 70-80's kid. Plus his rotoscoping feels less creative rather than innovative, even if looked pretty fluid on screen. I still will occasionally watch "Fire & Ice" though -- it's so bad, it's great, in terms of the script and also how it violates every sense of what is recognized as decent in current culture. It's like he was trying to make the most offensive movie possible by today's standards!

The Jackson Hobbit trilogy was overlong and should have been edited down to one 3.5 hour long film. I'd love to see someone do a fan edit that cuts it down and keeps it truer to the novel

I do like the dwarves and Bilbo, but yeah -- you can easily cut a third of it. The one thing I was happy about was the Arkenstone inclusion, since it was missing from the RB Hobbit cartoon. They got that scene right, I loved that.

I do need a screensaver of Legolas running up a tumbling cascade of rocks, though, for my computer desktop. Apparently he is now The Flash. You know, I would really pay to see that documentary: "The Evolution of Legolas: How a Mere Wood Elf Eventually Became a Superhero"

Come to think of it, fantasy film adaptations in general don't have a great track record. Eragon, Narnia, etc

They try to make a spectacle out of it or focus on things that are not the reason the story endures. Narnia wasn't bad but just bad timing and also the films could have been better. Aslan was unfortunately a pretty tame lion -- Neeson sounds like dream casting but man, boring in that role. Tilda Swinton was a great cast. Also, Will Poulter in his early career, as Eustace -- that became his typecasting for some years.

Anyway, yes, they've tried to make Earthsea stuff a few times over and it's been horrible. No one gets the story. THey all want some big blockbuster tale generating lots of revenue and they focus on the superficials typically in the process.

Here, I'm not convinced they had a story yet (since they haven't even told us what it is!) and are just trying to profitize a setting.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I agree that the Extended Editions are the definitive cut of the films. I never watch the Theatricals anymore. I still have issues with some of the things Jackson did, but definitely the Extended Edition is better.

He did Faramir and Treebeard dirty. People don't talk about Treebeard that much, but it bothers me more. Why would a shepherd of the forest not know what is going on with his flock? In the book he didn't need the hobbit to be aware of what Saruman was doing; I don't think he needed the hobbits to convince him of action at all. (I think it was the other Ents that needed convincing, IIRC).

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Maybe when GRRM finishes his books someone will do a proper tv series reboot that is more than just dwarf jokes and fan service. The disconnect between the seasons based on existing novels and those pulled out the asses of D&D is crazy. Maybe we need another pandemic lockdown do he'll stop doing speaking tours and convention appearances and just stay home and write.

 

[Totenkindly]

He did Faramir and Treebeard dirty. People don't talk about Treebeard that much, but it bothers me more. Why would a shepherd of the forest not know what is going on with his flock? In the book he didn't need the hobbit to be aware of what Saruman was doing; I don't think he needed the hobbits to convince him of action at all. (I think it was the other Ents that needed convincing, IIRC).

I think you are right. It's been years since i read that part, since I didn't care for it when younger... but yeah.

I mean, some things get changed for a film to try to make your leads more active, less passive. So that is likely why they wanted Pip and Merry to do more convincing. I get it.

But I agree about Faramir. That was one of the things I liked least. It's not like everyone could resist the Ring -- it was just Faramir and Frodo, and Frodo failed as he neared the Cracks of Doom because after all he was just mortal. (Faramir would have failed at that stage too, if not before.) But the film tarnishes both of their characters and makes them less interesting, to me. LIke having Frodo turn on Sam needlessly. Like, uggh.

And I've already griped about how the films take supernatural beings and diminish them -- thinking Durin's Bane (who is like a giant videogame boss now), Shelob (who is just a giant spider, not Ungoliant's daughter and this icky dripping hided embodiment of long-lived evil), the Watcher in the Water (who is just a monster with tentacles wanting to eat things, versus this really freaking body-less collection of tentacles -- note that Stephen King really riffed on this and how creepy it is in his novella "The Mist", and Donaldson did a great spin on it with the Lurker of the Sarangrave -- the less you know about it, the better!).

This is why they need less literal directors for some of this stuff.

Maybe when GRRM finishes his books someone will do a proper tv series reboot that is more than just dwarf jokes and fan service. The disconnect between the seasons based on existing novels and those pulled out the asses of D&D is crazy. Maybe we need another pandemic lockdown do he'll stop doing speaking tours and convention appearances and just stay home and write.

Seriously, man. I have heard he is involved in many other writing projects that are NOT ASOFAI.

I think he is just stuck. He makes many demands of himself for logistical accuracy, and at this point it's killing his ability to finish the book. He might have to cut some corners to get the bulk of the detail correct and just go with it, or he'll never finish it and we'll just get either no ending or someone else's badly written ending.

The problem with the show ending is that it removed some of the impetus to finish. It's like "well, people already know the ending, so there is not as much demand/need."

I honestly would like a redo of Seasons 7-8 (and necessarily an expansion), with a few things kept... but that is not going to ever happen, Zack Snyder notwithstanding. It just will have to be chalked up as a great loss.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think you are right. It's been years since i read that part, since I didn't care for it when younger... but yeah.

I mean, some things get changed for a film to try to make your leads more active, less passive. So that is likely why they wanted Pip and Merry to do more convincing. I get it.

But I agree about Faramir. That was one of the things I liked least. It's not like everyone could resist the Ring -- it was just Faramir and Frodo, and Frodo failed as he neared the Cracks of Doom because after all he was just mortal. (Faramir would have failed at that stage too, if not before.) But the film tarnishes both of their characters and makes them less interesting, to me. LIke having Frodo turn on Sam needlessly. Like, uggh.

And I've already griped about how the films take supernatural beings and diminish them -- thinking Durin's Bane (who is like a giant videogame boss now), Shelob (who is just a giant spider, not Ungoliant's daughter and this icky dripping hided embodiment of long-lived evil), the Watcher in the Water (who is just a monster with tentacles wanting to eat things, versus this really freaking body-less collection of tentacles -- note that Stephen King really riffed on this and how creepy it is in his novella "The Mist", and Donaldson did a great spin on it with the Lurker of the Sarangrave -- the less you know about it, the better!).

This is why they need less literal directors for some of this stuff.



Seriously, man. I have heard he is involved in many other writing projects that are NOT ASOFAI.

I think he is just stuck. He makes many demands of himself for logistical accuracy, and at this point it's killing his ability to finish the book. He might have to cut some corners to get the bulk of the detail correct and just go with it, or he'll never finish it and we'll just get either no ending or someone else's badly written ending.

The problem with the show ending is that it removed some of the impetus to finish. It's like "well, people already know the ending, so there is not as much demand/need."

I honestly would like a redo of Seasons 7-8 (and necessarily an expansion), with a few things kept... but that is not going to ever happen, Zack Snyder notwithstanding. It just will have to be chalked up as a great loss.

God I really hope we don't end up with a Dune style ending to the saga

 

[Totenkindly]

Now that you reminded me -- I do have faith in Denis Villeneuve.

 

[Totenkindly]

The New 'Rings of Power' Trailer Finally Reveals Khazad-dûm

In 2017, Amazon Originals splashed into the news when it purchased the global rights to a television adaptation of The Lord of the Rings for a cool $250 million. Here's everything we know about Amazon's upcoming Lord of the Rings series, including its stellar first trailer.

www.yahoo.com

.... hobbits in the Second Age.

Thinking outside of Tolkien's box seems to be a priority for the show. Sir Lenny Henry will play a Harfoot, a type of hobbit described by Tolkien as having darker skin. But, and this is important, hobbits didn't come along until the Third Age, meaning that adding hobbit characters to a Second Age story is a major break with the canon. Henry sees it as a step forward for inclusivity in fantasy, saying:

“I’m a Harfoot, because J.R.R. Tolkien, who was also from Birmingham, suddenly there were Black hobbits. I’m a Black hobbit; it’s brilliant. What’s notable about this run of the books, it's a prequel to the age that we’ve seen in the films. It's about the early days of the Shire and Tolkien’s environment, so we’re an indigenous population of Harfoots. We’re hobbits but we’re called Harfoots. We’re multi-cultural. We’re a tribe, not a race, so we’re Black, Asian, and brown—even Maori types within it.”

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It's probably just gonna be GoT lite, right?

 

[Totenkindly]

It's probably just gonna be GoT lite, right?

That is definitely how I am feeling about the Wheel of Time stuff. Maybe I will be surprised, but the promo's just looked like some kind of higher-end Xena/Hercules approach trying to market itself as GoT.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That is definitely how I am feeling about the Wheel of Time stuff. Maybe I will be surprised, but the promo's just looked like some kind of higher-end Xena/Hercules approach trying to market itself as GoT.

Well to play the devil's advocate, the hobbits enter the chronology of the appendices in the third age. But that doesn't mean they weren't around in the second age, especially because the bulk of the Second Age stuff is about Numenor. Hell very little is said in the Silmarillion about lands east of the Blue Mountains in the First Age.

But it does kinda seem like they're just putting hobbits in it because they're afraid people will tune out if they don't include hobbits. "If this is Lord of the RIngs, how come there are no hobbits?"

 

[Totenkindly]

Well to play the devil's advocate, the hobbits enter the chronology of the appendices in the third age. But that doesn't mean they weren't around in the second age, especially because the bulk of the Second Age stuff is about Numenor. Hell very little is said in the Silmarillion about lands east of the Blue Mountains in the First Age.

But it does kinda seem like they're just putting hobbits in it because they're afraid people will tune out if they don't include hobbits. "If this is Lord of the RIngs, how come there are no hobbits?"

yeah that is kind of how I see it too. But anyway.

"It is unknown when Hobbits first appeared in Arda. They are only known to have originated somewhere in the Valley of the Anduin River. By the time they were discovered by the other peoples of Middle-earth, they had already been around for many generations. The earliest known group of hobbits lived in the Valley of Anduin, in the region of Wilderland between Mirkwood and the Misty Mountains. "

Also:

The Grey Havens - Hobbits: Where did the hobbits come from?

Croatian WWW Site Dedicated to the World of of J.R.R. Tolkien

tolkien.cro.net

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

yeah that is kind of how I see it too. But anyway.

"It is unknown when Hobbits first appeared in Arda. They are only known to have originated somewhere in the Valley of the Anduin River. By the time they were discovered by the other peoples of Middle-earth, they had already been around for many generations. The earliest known group of hobbits lived in the Valley of Anduin, in the region of Wilderland between Mirkwood and the Misty Mountains. "

Also:

The Grey Havens - Hobbits: Where did the hobbits come from?

Croatian WWW Site Dedicated to the World of of J.R.R. Tolkien

tolkien.cro.net

First I've heard about the hobbits coming from Dark Elves, but yeah, that link indicates that hobbits have probably been around before the third age.

 

[Totenkindly]

First I've heard about the hobbits coming from Dark Elves, but yeah, that link indicates that hobbits have probably been around before the third age.

It really depends on where this story is taking place as well, I guess...

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Don't know where else to stick this, but I checked out an ebook of Beren and Luthien from the library and I'm almost finished (thankfully, in the nick of time before it expires). That was my favorite part of the Silmarillion, so I thought I'd check this out. I really appreciate the expanding details and it makes things come alive more. Now I think Sauron's role in the destruction of Numenor had to be motivated at least partially by revenge at being so humilated by the forebears of the line of Elros. I think there was probably a bit more than just the fact that "I can have no rival", I'll bet it was more personal.

 

[yeghor]

Rings of Power tv series - A satire by Critical Drinker

 

[The Cat]

For mayn years in my teens I was disinclined to enjoy the movies, such a fan of the books was I. But then the extended editions came out and I watched them and read the books concurrently and I have to say. When it comes to books. The Books are better. When it comes to films, the extended editions are better films. TBH I think if people can get off the baited issues being brought up around seemingly making tolkien great again and worrrying about cannon vs casting choices...I think they could be fantastic shows that could get a decent run of seasons and tell a fine, enjoyable story, perhaps better than a lot of what else is out there...but times and fandoms being what they seem to be being infinged with...I'm less optimistic it will get the good faith chance I'd like to see it get. It's one thing to sit up to the table and be served a bad meal, but its another thing all together, to spend the entire prep time badgering the cooks while theyre cooking and then being mad it's not a meal like grandmother tolkien cooked back in your childhood. In a different medium. No one's saying you cant enjoy the original recipe, but at least try what you're served before you send it back. Not saying anyone at this table is a picky eater who thinks there's only one meal and one right way to cook it, but a lot of fandoms rn remind me of bratty children, who dont want to eat their meatloaf like good little piggies.(fans shooting their eye out so to speak) After all, once upon a time...all we had were the books, now we've got movies, and merchandise, rpgs, and finally tv shows. We've never been more spoiled for new content. Ive never(and this isnt going on in this thread as far as I can tell but) understood the push back on diversity in casting. That means that more people are getting into an awesome fandom and making it even more accessible to even more people. Gone could be the days of not having other geeks close by to be able to gush and bitch about our favorite geeky bullshit. Rejecting the diversification of the fandoms (Star wars seems really bad about this, but lately ST and LOTR fanbases seem to be either infiltrated or alas I never really knew them) seems like cutting off noses to spite faces...starts to feel like this could be a big reason we cant have nice things...idk just a thought from a lunatic. Im worried our nostalgia is being weaponized towards a less than good ending. Hate to see a thing like that. Reminds me of some childhood loss in some ways.