The Process of Belief

[Mole]

Love

God sent His own son to die for us. If that's not love, then everything I know about love is wrong.

Then everything you know about love is wrong.

For we are told that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God, and yet in the same breath we are commanded to love the Lord thy God.

We are commanded to love someone we fear. This is precisely what a child abuser does. So it is no surprise that the Father tortured His own Son to death.

What is surprising is that you confuse love with child abuse.

But perhaps we shouldn't be surprised for evidence is coming out of History Departments that your Church has been abusing children and covering it up not for the last sixty years but for the last one thousand years.

This is unbearable for you to face so naturally you avoid it by calling child abuse, love.

 

[teslashock]

Then again, since he's God and can do literally anything, he could have just arbitrarily forgiven us. It's painted as this great and painful sacrifice, this horribly difficult choice that God was forced into but chose us over his own son because he loves us that much, but that's under the assumption that God couldn't just change the conditions necessitating that a sacrifice be made.

Why couldn't he just say, "You know what guys? You've been bad kids, but I forgive you. After all, I am God!"

What external force imposed the condition that a sacrifice must be made in order to forgive human sins? Where does that condition come from and why couldn't God just decide to forgive us without a sacrifice? I mean, he's GOD; he can change any conditions into any other conditions at will.


"Well, son...you've really been bad this time. I think I can forgive you, because I love you, but...I'll have to crucify your brother first."

Wouldn't a truly eternally forgiving God just forgive us anyway without killing innocent people?

+1

And if he REALLY loved us, this almighty God would provide us all with an infinite supply of new Zelda games, multiple orgasms, and green apple Jolly Ranchers.

 

[Nyx]

Then again, since he's God and can do literally anything, he could have just arbitrarily forgiven us. It's painted as this great and painful sacrifice, this horribly difficult choice that God was forced into but chose us over his own son because he loves us that much, but that's under the assumption that God couldn't just change the conditions necessitating that a sacrifice be made.

Why couldn't he just say, "You know what guys? You've been bad kids, but I forgive you. After all, I am God!"

What external force imposed the condition that a sacrifice must be made in order to forgive human sins? Where does that condition come from and why couldn't God just decide to forgive us without a sacrifice? I mean, he's GOD; he can change any conditions into any other conditions at will.


"Well, son...you've really been bad this time. I think I can forgive you, because I love you, but...I'll have to crucify your brother first."

Wouldn't a truly eternally forgiving God just forgive us anyway without killing innocent people?

Well your problem is you are humanizing God, and everything typed here is irrelevant.


Also, if I seriously regard all belief as trance, then I should accept I am always in a trance, which is ridiculous. I suppose that we are free to believe anything about yourself, including that I am an orange. This kind of belief stems from modernist relativism where we doubt everything we have, and if ultimately self destructive in its deductions.

 

[Mole]

This kind of belief stems from modernist relativism where we doubt everything we have, and if ultimately self destructive in its deductions.
I recommend checking out Fulton Sheen

I think it was Descartes who said doubt is a way to discovery.

And the Most Reverend Archbishop, Fulton John Sheen, said not one word against the crimes of organised, child, sexual abuse within the very institution he was responsible for.

 

[Nyx]

I think it was Descartes who suggested we doubt as a way to discovery.

And Bishop Fulton Sheen said not one thing against the crime of organised, child, sexual abuse within the very institution he was responsible for.

In fact no Bishop has had his day in Court.

Why is this?

Sure, doubt is necessary for faith... doubt encourages reason. That doesn't explain the absurdity of relativist deductions. I'm not defending the Catholic Church either, and what we are talking about has nothing to do with the literal Church. Sheen was not discussing that because it had nothing to do with the subject of that show. He usually discusses something related to philosophy and the main idea of the show was to bring it to the common man.

YouTube - CatholicClips's Channel

That link might be more relevant to this thread based on the OP.

 

[Mole]

Sheen was not discussing that because it had nothing to do with the subject of that show.

The Most Reverend Archbishop, Fulton John Sheen, deliberately covered up the crimes of organised, child rape to save the institution from scandal and to preserve the assets of the Church.

 

[Lark]

+1

And if he REALLY loved us, this almighty God would provide us all with an infinite supply of new Zelda games, multiple orgasms, and green apple Jolly Ranchers.

I dont agree with your point but I like the way you make it. Green apple jolly ranchers? I dont know what they are but assume they're as good as the other two things.

 

[Nyx]

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen deliberately covered up the crimes of organised, child rape to save the institution from scandal and to preserve the assets of the Church.

Hahaha I can tell you are just trying to be a troll, but here is a good quote from him

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church" - Fulton Sheen

 

[Lark]

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen deliberately covered up the crimes of organised, child rape to save the institution from scandal and to preserve the assets of the Church.

And in doing so he was doing just the same thing as others in other institutions with the same priorities and decisions to make have done, you seen Sleepers? Based on real events, not an RC insititution.

I always think its cute when people seize upon the abuse that occured in RC institutions, most abuse happens in the home, its more than likely someone known to the victim and closely related to them and of the abuse that does occure in institutional settings its not restricted in any way to the relgious ones. There's nothing about religiousity which dictates either abuse or cover ups, nothing unique to religious mindsets which demands that.

Although lets disect why abuse is wrong, its because its a violation of trust, often an unconscientable corruption of authority and its harmful and those things are considered wrong as a consequence of the morality which has evolved and been handed down to today from past generations.

The origins of that morality? Wait... Dont tell me...

 

[Lark]

I think it was Descartes who said doubt is a way to discovery.

And The Most Reverend Archbishop Fulton John Sheen said not one word against the crimes of organised, child, sexual abuse within the very institution he was responsible for.

Yeah, Descartes also set up a tragic mind-body dualism which has entered into the collective psyche of the west and makes for alienation and illness, its fundamentally different in asiatic countries were the dualism doesnt exist and doctrines like Zen instead encourage holistic consciousness.

 

[Lark]

you're wrong. i can find plenty of examples of writing that is 3000 or 2000 years old that is completly strait forward and understandable.

God for you.

Written under persecution? Influenced by mystery schools and magic? Esoteric?

I mean if you do I'd be interested to see them. They may not be that exciting but I'm inclined to be a fan of reading anyhow.

 

[Mole]

Yeah, Descartes also set up a tragic mind-body dualism which has entered into the collective psyche of the west and makes for alienation and illness, its fundamentally different in asiatic countries were the dualism doesnt exist and doctrines like Zen instead encourage holistic consciousness.

We perceive by making distinctions. And a distinction always has two sides. So our very perception is dualistic. The very way we know is dualistic. Our epistemology is dualistic.

It is simply the political correctness of the bien-pensant which denigrates the West by valorizing the East on the immoral basis that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

But the fact of the matter is that the West has led the world into the Enlightenment and the East is following.

It's ironic, just as the East is following us into dualism and the Enlightenment, the bien-pensant of the West are discovering Zen and holistic consciousness.

 

[Mole]

And in doing so he was doing just the same thing as others

What I and other Roman Catholics want is for criminal Bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals to be brought before the Criminal Courts.

But so far not even one criminal Bishop has been brought before the Criminal Courts.

 

[Lark]

We perceive by making distinctions. And a distinction always has two sides. So our very perception is dualistic. The very way we know is dualistic. Our epistemology is dualistic.

It is simply the political correctness of the bien-pensant which denigrates the West by valorizing the East on the immoral basis that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

But the fact of the matter is that the West has led the world into the Enlightenment and the East is following.

It's ironic, just as the East is following us into dualism and the Enlightenment, the bien-pensant of the West are discovering Zen and holistic consciousness.

And this is an example of both the impact of dualism and why its wrong.

 

[Lark]

What I and other Roman Catholics want is for criminal Bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals to be brought before the Criminal Courts.

But so far not even one criminal Bishop has been brought before the Criminal Courts.

And this is in contrast to other institutional cover ups?

Did you hear there was this war to keep the world safe from WMD...

 

[Nyx]

After four thousand posts, if I were a troll I wouldn't be here.

And I am a sacramental Roman Catholic in the Diocese of Canberra and Goulburn, Australia. And I am telling you we do not want you to continue the cover up of criminal, organised child rape within our Church.

We will fight you at every opportunity and expose you.

The Report of the Irish Government exposes you. The Report from the Government of Dublin exposes you. All of the criminal convictions across the civilized world expose you. And now History Departments of top Universities are exposing you.

We know that criminal, child rape is still continuing in the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines and South America.

We will never allow you to cover it up again.

Covering up child rape is a crime after the fact.

Me? I don't consider myself a Roman Catholic any longer. Actually, I'm trying to convert to Orthodoxy, partly because of the corruption of the Roman church in modern times. What Sheen is referring to is the Truth of the Church, not the crimes committed under its roof.

 

[Mole]

I don't consider myself a Roman Catholic any longer.

So you are not a Roman Catholic but you are playing Catholic politics.

And you have the hide to call me a troll.

 

[Nyx]

So you are not a Roman Catholic but you are playing Catholic politics.

And you have the hide to call me a troll.

playing Catholic politics? I'm not defending anyone. This thread(and forum) is not about politics. I just mentioned Fulton Sheen in a post because i appreciate his insights and he gives a fair view of Christian philosophical thought for the average man.

 

[Lark]

playing Catholic politics? I'm not defending anyone. This thread(and forum) is not about politics. I just mentioned Fulton Sheen in a post because i appreciate his insights and he gives a fair view of Christian philosophical thought for the average man.

I dont really understand that comment by Victor either.

I'm not surprised at the shape the Church is in, its been deserted by its best followers in droves and what remains is not a pretty sight.

Many of the prepetrators of abuse who took up residence within its structure did so because it was short cut to accessing the children or vulnerable people which they wished to abuse, like a serial killer joining the army to run amok in a free fire zone.

Its often difficult realising just how bad things are but there's no way to make a start on changing without reaching that point, its a real question of were to from here but I dont believe the answer is migrating to another congregation, they are as liable to experience the same problems and perhaps have not the same insights as a result of experience. Precious metals are tempered by fire.

 

[simulatedworld]

Well your problem is you are humanizing God, and everything typed here is irrelevant.

That sounds like quite a cop out to me.

If God is not to be humanized, how does he even have a son or feel human emotions like love in the first place? Seems like you want to humanize God when it's convenient but not when it isn't.