The PoLR Thread

[yeghor]

The problem lies in the fact that the only people who use actual JCF are typology forums, so whenever there is a MBTI correlation to another typology system, it is non-comparable to our situation due to the fact that their correlations concern how individuals test on dichotomy-based tests rather than cognitive function based test.

I'm not sure I have enough energy to debate this further anyways, with [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] and me going at each others' throats since we apparently can't see eye to eye on each others' stances.

I just think this is starting on wrong premises therefore wouldn't yield accurate results...

I leave you to your own devices... I don't think I have anything further to contribute...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I just think this is starting on wrong premises therefore wouldn't yield accurate results...

I leave you to your own devices... I don't think I have anything further to contribute...

Good. I find it absolutely hilarious how you attempt to undermine a system based on your premature understandings against a person who has devoted more time to understanding the system objectively rather than understanding based around the false assumption that the system must fit around your understanding.

The majority of your argument consisted of non-sequiturs and provided no evidence to justify any of your actual claims other than faulty logical constructs. Then to suggest that I'm the one being close-minded when I have reviewed your argument and offered a counter-argument is almost insulting. It's essentially projection. I wish we could see on the same level.

 

[infinite]

The problem lies in the fact that the only people who use actual JCF are typology forums, so whenever there is a MBTI correlation to another typology system, it is non-comparable to our situation due to the fact that their correlations concern how individuals test on dichotomy-based tests rather than cognitive function based test.

I'm not sure I have enough energy to debate this further anyways

OK so what's an ISTJ SiTe (JCF) in socionics? You don't have to reply right now or right here. But when you get the energy to debate it again, I'd be interested.

I just think this is starting on wrong premises therefore wouldn't yield accurate results...

I leave you to your own devices... I don't think I have anything further to contribute...

Hey you're making me really curious about your socionics type. Open a socionics "type me" thread pretty please

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

OK so what's an ISTJ SiTe (JCF) in socionics? You don't have to reply right now or right here. But when you get the energy to debate it again, I'd be interested.

An ISTJ would be correlated to the ISTp. This of course assumes that the ISTJ is theoretically a perfect example of the archetypal ISTJ rather than an individual who could be typed incorrectly.

 

[infinite]

An ISTJ would be correlated to the ISTp. This of course assumes that the ISTJ is theoretically a perfect example of the archetypal ISTJ rather than an individual who could be typed incorrectly.

The archetypal ISTJ (SiTe, JCF) matches the ISTj archetype much better in Socionics than the ISTp archetype.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

The archetypal ISTJ (SiTe, JCF) matches the ISTj archetype much better in Socionics than the ISTp archetype.

How so?

 

[infinite]

How so?

Read the descriptions yet?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Read the descriptions yet?

So you are basing this on subjective reasoning? I'll do it, I just want to know if there is any form of objective evidence.

I'll be using simulatedworld's JCF analysis of ISTJ and the Wikisocion description of the SLI and the LSI (sorry, forgot to include that one).

 

[infinite]

So you are basing this on subjective reasoning? I'll do it, I just want to know if there is any form of objective evidence.

I don't think there is anything subjective about comparing two widely accepted descriptions of archetypes (one JCF, one Socionics). As long as there is no "reading between the lines" stuff, of course. That's the most objective evidence you will get in this case anyway.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I don't think there is anything subjective about comparing two widely accepted descriptions of archetypes (one JCF, one Socionics). As long as there is no "reading between the lines" stuff, of course. That's the most objective evidence you will get in this case anyway.

I can see a case for the ISTJ being either one, but ultimately it seems that the misunderstanding arises from the ISTJ's Te and Ne. The SLI, for instance, clearly embodies the JCF ISTJ's preference for the familiar and the tangible as well as the moralistic stances indicative of teritary Fi, but the LSI seems to embody the "fastidious" qualities applied to the ISTJ along with the inferior Ne (placed in the PoLR) fear of ambiguity. Introverted Sensation easily carries over from the ISTJ to the SLI, and so does introverted feeling, but the LSI seems to have adopted the organized quality of Te through extroverted sensation, but this, too, is eliminated due to the MBTI ISTJ's lack of assertion and of a dominating personality that seems to make up the LSI's Ti-Se mechanism. The inferior Ne, however, seems to reflect better with the LSI's PoLR Ne on the topic of fearing ambiguity, but not really lining up with the positive integration of Ne coupled with Si to create a stronger lead/dominant that is seen in both the SLI and the MBTI ISTJ through the acceptance of multiple possibilities and abstractions.

If I were to choose a direct correlation based on these sources, it would be ISTJ -> ISTp (SLI), but that of course is subjective understanding and is thus not based on empirical data.

 

[infinite]

I can see a case for the ISTJ being either one, but ultimately it seems that the misunderstanding arises from the ISTJ's Te and Ne. The SLI, for instance, clearly embodies the JCF ISTJ's preference for the familiar and the tangible as well as the moralistic stances indicative of teritary Fi, but the LSI seems to embody the "fastidious" qualities applied to the ISTJ along with the inferior Ne (placed in the PoLR) fear of ambiguity. Introverted Sensation easily carries over from the ISTJ to the SLI, and so does introverted feeling, but the LSI seems to have adopted the organized quality of Te through extroverted sensation, but this, too, is eliminated due to the MBTI ISTJ's lack of assertion and of a dominating personality that seems to make up the LSI's Ti-Se mechanism. The inferior Ne, however, seems to reflect better with the LSI's PoLR Ne on the topic of fearing ambiguity, but not really lining up with the positive integration of Ne coupled with Si to create a stronger lead/dominant that is seen in both the SLI and the MBTI ISTJ through the acceptance of multiple possibilities and abstractions.

If I were to choose a direct correlation based on these sources, it would be ISTJ -> ISTp (SLI), but that of course is subjective understanding and is thus not based on empirical data.

OK, for one, this is [MENTION=5510]simulatedworld[/MENTION]'s own theory. One of several JCF theories floating around. This isn't just a random tidbit of data, this is actually meaningful. (I hope it will be clear later as to why)

Now to analyse this specific one just a little bit; How does exactly Si carry over from the ISTJ to the SLI? Elaborate?

I'm going to randomly pick a part from the ISTJ analysis: "They won't stop until the quota is met, the deadline satisfied, the standards upheld. All of this ties directly back into Si's desire for stability: Te represents a universal set of logical standards and evaluations from which no one is exempt. Nobody gets exceptions to the rules, because the rules represent the lifeblood of the system under which all interactions with others are governed: if we can't count on the rules to be enforced uniformly and consistently, we can't count on anything"

Sounds familiar? It's LSI's Ti lead function all over (with Se creative). Simulatedworld just explains it by combining his definitions of Si and Te together.

And that there, is a great example of how the exact same phenomenon can be classified differently under a different system.

As for your explanation about Ne, Te, whatever, do recognize that these are concepts built up from elements. If broken down to their elements, including consideration of other elements (I do step outside MBTI and Socionics here for other frameworks), it can be seen that these concepts are not necessarily the only one way to explain the phenomenon and that the function concepts with similar names in two (or more) different systems are actually different ones, at least partially, and this introduces logical inconsistencies.

 

[Such Irony]

Se PoLR:
I react poorly to people who try to force me to do things without an explanation. My will is my own and I resent it when people try to control that. My instinctive urge is to push back and refuse to cooperate. I also would rather that people would take initiative and do things on their own without me having to push them constantly. I also think people should be kinder to each other and not resort so readily to violence.

SEEs sometimes make me feel like a boring stick in the mud.

Word

What you wrote about resenting it if others try to control your will, that's not Se PoLR, that's actually explicitly mentioned for Se base types at wikisocion: "He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him." Also: "He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way." (=> Se base, SLE and SEE)

I relate to this too, even though I think I'm Se PoLR.

But I also relate to this Se PoLR description in the LII:

LIIs typically respond poorly to and have difficulty applying volitional pressure. They treat most situations in calculated, rational, and realistic fashions, and they tend to have little response for individuals who operate outside of the boundaries of applying rational criteria to the situation at hand. They often have difficulty impelling others to follow their leadership; in practice, they often work independently. LIIs in possession of a problem that can't be solved intellectually, instead requiring direct personal confrontation may resort to total avoidance; LIIs feel that such a situation would in all likelihood produce only frustration and contempt. They may wish that everyone simply listened to reason.

LIIs may see attempts to rile them up or spring them into activity as crude, intrusive, and insulting to their intelligence. They may see such pushy or forceful attempts to control them as hopelessly closed-minded and at odds with their sense of intellectual freedom. They may have difficulty adapting to impulsive or spontaneous behavior, instead preferring stable environments that encourage an accepting and warm atmosphere.

LIIs are often not cognizant of power dynamics and have little interest in who has control over a situation.

In particular, how is the bolded statement different from Se base types as described above? It sounds like both Se base and Se PoLR types hate being controlled by others? What's the real difference? I guess that Se base types are more inclined to try to control others to get them to do things their way whereas Se PoLR types resist both being controlled and controlling others?

 

[infinite]

LIIs may see attempts to rile them up or spring them into activity as crude, intrusive, and insulting to their intelligence. They may see such pushy or forceful attempts to control them as hopelessly closed-minded and at odds with their sense of intellectual freedom.

In particular, how is the bolded statement different from Se base types as described above? It sounds like both Se base and Se PoLR types hate being controlled by others? What's the real difference? I guess that Se base types are more inclined to try to control others to get them to do things their way whereas Se PoLR types resist both being controlled and controlling others?

What you bolded is mainly from an intellectual viewpoint (not surprising for an LII heh). What you quoted from senza tema isn't really from that viewpoint. He/she emphasized his/her will instead and connected it to an "instinctive urge".

I don't know if it's anything like that for you.

Btw I have no idea if Se PoLR's typically resist being controlled, I also read they can be pushovers. I dunno.

 

[011235813]

[MENTION=10653]Such Irony[/MENTION]

Regarding attempts to rile me up: yes, I see them as stupid and close minded, but I feel little to no desire to avoid responding in kind. There's a part of me that's energized by fighting back.

I'll admit that framing logical arguments in response is sometimes a bit of a challenge. It's easier in writing where I can go back and edit flaws in my logic. But I'm still a little bit afraid that people will pick holes in it. Like yesterday, I dashed off a vigorous response to someone and felt very pleased with it, until I realized that I hadn't addressed the central point and that my post could be construed as an invalidation of my position. So I went back and edited it and hoped no one had seen the prior position, hahaha.

And I'm actually pretty smart but still prone to this kind of thing. Kinda sad.

 

[Evo]

4. Introverted Sensing
LIEs have the view that introverted sensing aspects are of less importance than others for achieving their goals. They put a low priority on the physical, short-distance, here-and-now in relation to longer-distance and longer-term considerations. A typical manifestation is a lack of concern for small aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of them is a never-ending exercise. This is also manifested in a relative lack of awareness of the immediate surroundings, as in noticing where objects may be if they don't have to deal with them particularly, and of their own physical sensations.
LIEs can accept that, for professional or social goals, they may have to take great care of aesthetic details in their immediate environment; but that will always be seen as a concession to others or to convention; they will never evaluate others in that regard and will tend to look down on those who are spontaneously very concerned about such matters.
This also leads to an inclination for postponing daily personal chores, which tend to accumulate and haunt the LIE later.

A type with Si PoLR has little patience for sitting back and focusing on how they can physically better themselves in the moment, especially if they are involved in what they view as a very important matter. They would much rather try to act on their long-term priorities instead of their physical comfort, resulting in problems such as an inability to be aware or care about present realities, failure to realize the physical or mental strains they are placing on themselves, and being generally unable to relax and take the focus off of their long-term pursuits.

Story of my fucking life. My PoLR represents everything that I don't care about but ultimately I do care about. I want someone else to do it for me. And the older I get the more I notice I want or need to do these types of things to better myself. But I suck at them. Like seriously if I could just get a routine down, I'd be golden.

To put things into perspective....If the ISTp I knew from work (who moved back to England) ever comes back. I'm quitting immediately. Not joking. And I barely worked with him.

 

[infinite]

Story of my fucking life. My PoLR represents everything that I don't care about but ultimately I do care about. I want someone else to do it for me. And the older I get the more I notice I want or need to do these types of things to better myself. But I suck at them. Like seriously if I could just get a routine down, I'd be golden.

To put things into perspective....If the ISTp I knew from work (who moved back to England) ever comes back. I'm quitting immediately. Not joking. And I barely worked with him.

How do you mean you ultimately do care about your PoLR after all?

What's wrong with the ISTp?

 

[Evo]

How do you mean you ultimately do care about your PoLR after all?

What's wrong with the ISTp?

I want to develop to my fullest potential. To do that, I feel like I have to incorporate Si. But I don't care about Si.

I ultimately DO care about it though because it is what I'm missing. It is what's always going to hold me back.

Wrt the ISTp, they are my supervisor, and Alea_iacta_est asked in the OP about the type of relationship we've had with a supervisor type.

I pretty much felt like everything had to be perfect or he'd freak out. And by freak out I mean bottle up his anger than explode in an extremely irrational way by yelling at the top of his lungs. (E1)

Also, he was just plain rude. For example he saw one of the heavier girls I work with, have a large plate of cookies on her desk. And she had a cookie in her hand. He automatically assumed she was eating them all, and walked right up to her and grabbed the cookie out of her hand. Then began to give her a shaming spiel on how she can't eat all those cookies, cause she's already too fat.

He overreacted, assumed they were all hers (when they really weren't), and felt it his need, and right, to tell people how to live their lives. I despise that.

 

[infinite]

I want to develop to my fullest potential. To do that, I feel like I have to incorporate Si. But I don't care about Si.

I ultimately DO care about it though because it is what I'm missing. It is what's always going to hold me back.

Wrt the ISTp, they are my supervisor, and Alea_iacta_est asked in the OP about the type of relationship we've had with a supervisor type.

I pretty much felt like everything had to be perfect or he'd freak out. And by freak out I mean bottle up his anger than explode in an extremely irrational way by yelling at the top of his lungs. (E1)

Also, he was just plain rude. For example he saw one of the heavier girls I work with, have a large plate of cookies on her desk. And she had a cookie in her hand. He automatically assumed she was eating them all, and walked right up to her and grabbed the cookie out of her hand. Then began to give her a shaming spiel on how she can't eat all those cookies, cause she's already too fat.

He overreacted, assumed they were all hers (when they really weren't), and felt it his need, and right, to tell people how to live their lives. I despise that.

Funny stuff Uhh why do you even type him as ISTp though?

As for incorporating PoLR for developing your fullest potential... I think you don't really need socionics to do that sort of stuff in practice. Though I guess it can help in making issues conscious and that's useful

 

[Evo]

Funny stuff Uhh why do you even type him as ISTp though?

Cause he had Si and Te....the dominant/auxilary functions of an SLI (aka ISTp) When he would talk about something he liked, it would be mostly about how it physically made his body feel. (Si) He talked in a matter of fact way (Te) , but took an extremely long time doing so. This is cause Si needs to find the precise words. I found conversing with him very annoying. If you were talking about something he didn't want to talk about he had no problem shutting the convo down. And it was in an extremely Te manner of speaking. Quite abrupt and straightforward, but in a methodical way.

As for incorporating PoLR for developing your fullest potential... I think you don't really need socionics to do that sort of stuff in practice. Though I guess it can help in making issues conscious and that's useful

...Right, I don't need socionics...

I need a routine.

Routines especially regarding the body, can be related to Si....

So socionics is a tool in which one can use to bring light to a shadow, in a semi-measurable way.

 

[infinite]

So socionics is a tool in which one can use to bring light to a shadow, in a semi-measurable way.

What kind of shadow? That sounds more MBTI to me. So I'd like more precise terminology here to be sure what you actually mean