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The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

ceecee

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You would think the pro police people would not want their police departments being distracted from crime solving by other priorities

I want to cruise in my mustang with my turtleneck to scope for hoods, not to check up on old Mrs Hastings with the life alert bracelet

You would think so. My theory for that is that most people that want more police (and cities of color do as well, not just a white people thing) is because there is no other alternative in their minds. But there is.

The police budget in the city of Grand Rapids, MI population about 180,000 is over $55 million to GRPD, which is 38.6% of the city's general fund. Maybe taking $10 million of that, hiring some mental health professionals, some homeless outreach that's not affiliated with the DeVos family or religious orgs, some people trained to de-escalate and not pointing a firearm, may be a good thing to try.

In Eugene The crisis team’s roughly $550,000 budget is funded through a public safety levy, which was passed by voters in 2017. Now, the Crisis Response Unit is contracted by the police department, on call daily from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. From April through June of this year, the team made over 500 contacts with community members.

How many of that 500 contacts are alive because it wasn't a cop with an inability to react to anything minus a firearm that showed up? In 2. Fucking. Months.
 

Pinker85

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I wish some source would compile and compare threats received, because it definitely seems to me like people on the left receive death threats *a lot* more than people on the right too. Some comprehensive comparison of which side regularly adds more violence to the world - with sources to back all of it up, so it's easily verifiable - would do wonders for our country right now.

***

It's just baffling to me that apparently Trump supporters are swallowing these stories whole about Democrat governors and mayors who don't want "help" in the form of federal troops are ALL suddenly radical left Marxist extremists? It's going to take a long, long time to recover from consequences of this shit smear's histrionic fear-mongering.

Not trying to be contrary but I think this narrative of the right being more radicalized and violent may not be accurate. I say this based off limited anecdotal experience. One example that sticks out was when I was protesting at a food festival the detainment and separation of kids from their parents. At one point the vibe totally shifted and this guy who had been standing near our group with signs lunged at a Trump supporter, no one stopped him from our group (though in fairness it all happened very quickly, 0 to 1000 really fast) and the collective vibe afterwards seemed to be it was OK, that was my sense, no one seemed upset by this from our group, as in, there wasn't from what I recall commentary on how what he did was unacceptable or expressions of shock etc, but who knows, maybe everyone was either in shock or used to things like that happening, he ended up being stopped by his wife but I am fairly sure that Trump supporter who wasn't even saying anything incendiary and was just voicing his belief Trump was doing a "good job" was pretty shaken up as the look on their face, if I was reading him right was hurt and fear. It shouldn't have happened and was wrong. After that this guy with an NRA shirt who had seen the whole thing stopped across from us and kept watch for like 40 minutes? In fairness to the guy who lunged, I think he may have been slightly inebriated as his eyes were a bit bloodshot and I think they were serving alcohol at the festival, his movements struck me as those of someone slightly inebriated and with the bloodshot eyes at the time I thought perhaps that explained partly his response. So who knows, what was going on with him.

It's like a moment I realized both sides get so emotionally heated, left and right, and it can get weird quick. I still believe we should have been there because the issue needed to be talked about and for people to know it was wrong but I don't agree with violence ever. I haven't actually met a lot of Trump supporters that I would consider violent and I've gone to an OK amount of liberal oriented protests, from green rights to anti-Trump, maybe it's just my state cause they are vastly outnumbered but mostly they just seem to express their views in a fairly calm way, I mean calm given the circumstances, a protest. It's arguable about the quality or morality of some of those views but the way they presented their opinion has been typically pretty respectful from my experience. There were a few who were obnoxious, like one guy would drive by with all these American flags and Trump signs and honk his horn, others would yell "Trump" while passing with an upraised fist etc. but nothing that seemed to try to escalate it somewhere violent that I recall. I have gotten more of an icy or angry vibe when they were passing, like the stink eye etc but not typically outright hostility. This was a year or so ago so maybe things have changed. But from my experience, I didn't interact with violent Trump supporters.

My feeling is, I think either side you will find people just losing it and finding themselves justified in losing it due to the passion of their beliefs and either side will paint the other side as being the ones who are violent and disrespectful etc. I'm fairly sure on the conservative web forums there are people talking about how liberals are on the whole more violent etc. etc. What scares me is increasingly people seem to ready to justify violence by painting the other side as the monsters, the bad people ... dehumanizing them. I don't really agree with that and I don't think that is what you all are trying to do ... but all the same, I wanted to share from my limited experiences I haven't interacted with anyone violent who supported Trump.

So all that can be said atm, I feel, until there are multiple studies done on which side is more violent, is say that politics just makes people get really emotional and emotional people can turn to violence. So violence on any side is wrong, whether that's towards a conservative or towards a liberal, its a zero tolerance thing. Personally, that is my feeling, violence is never ever justified.
 

Z Buck McFate

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If we're talking about run of the mill, everyday kind of aggression then I probably agree. Or rather, I can't say I have a solid opinion because I just don't know a great many Trump supporters personally, my primary means of interacting with them is online and there's a very good chance that sampling gives an incorrect impression of the whole. (It stands to reason that the ones who quickly jump into conversation about their political affiliation will necessarily be more aggressive about defending it).

But I was alluding to extremists/fringe, organizing to try to turn protests into riots (ultimately with a goal of civil war) caliber aggression, and referring to how Trump keeps saying the "extremist left" is the danger (implying there isn't any dangerous extremist right element at all, when in fact far more proof has been found connecting boogaloos - right extremists - with plans to turn the protests into riots to the point of inciting an actual civil war). It's supposedly a justification for sending federal troops in to stop the protesting (which he's making out to be mostly rioting, which it's not), even though the local government (on state AND city level) don't want him there. And (supposedly) the only reason the local (state and city) government is saying that his federal show of force isn't wanted and is only making things worse is because they are dangerously left extremist too. He's saying this about the government officials. He is hardcore fear-mongering about an "extreme left" movement - which seems to include basically absolutely anyone who doesn't like him or has criticism of the way he's handling anything - trying to 'destroy' the country that he's trying so hard to save. I mean, even most 13 year olds are better at lying and throwing blame on others, because they know lying and blaming others so absolutely compulsively becomes transparent at some point- and credibility is important to maintain the influence that lying gets in the first place.

Anyway, there were kind of three points in my previous post. (1) Trump is doing *a lot* of fear-mongering about left extremism (and this imaginary Antifa terrorist organization) that just flat out isn't true - most of the protesting is peaceful, and he's going so far as to call government officials who claim it's mostly peaceful "lying extremists" as well. Don't get me wrong, there's obviously people on the left participating when the protests turn into riots - but there hasn't been any proof that there's organized effort behind it. (2) There actually is proof of extremist organizing - to turn the peaceful protesting into riots, and those riots into civil war - but it's on the right. And (3) it seems to me like there's been more extreme aggression in the form of Democrats in positions of power (or even just people interfering with the power of Republicans) getting death threats. Has Tara Reade been inundated with death threats? Because Christine Blasey Ford sure was. Pelosi has gotten them, Schiff has gotten them, etc. And I was saying I'd love to see a comprehensive list of those kind of threats alone, how many people on each side have gotten them - not even to use in argument (it won't make a difference to most people anyway, I totally agree with ceecee about that), but just to see if there's a bunch of death threats dished out to Republicans that I don't hear about.

Just as an aside, I want to point out the hypocrisy of Trump tweeting about the bikers and "tough guys" who back him for the past couple years (as means to intimidate), and then once civil unrest is causing mass panic he starts tweeting about how "left extremists" are the dangerous, aggressive force to be afraid of. Carnival. Barking. Clown.

And postscript: ordinarily that middle paragraph would warrant links to verify the claims I make, but in this crowd the effort is wasted. Generally speaking, the only ones who can entertain the possibility that it's true already believe it. But I feel compelled to acknowledge that usually such claims - without links to back it up - might be grating.
 

Red Herring

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For what it's worth, I looked at the official German police statistics for politically motivated crimes for last year. It depends on the type of offense, but generally speaking right wing crime outnumbers leftwing crime by about 2:1 (this also applies to violent crime like battery and manslaughter or murder). In the case of online hate posting the right is dominating 10:1. However many cases are never resolved. Also, leftwing motivated offenses have increased more rapidly and when it comes to nonviolent offenses against political opponents the left outnumber the right by about 3:1. As far as threats against elected politicians are concerned many cases are unclear but the right outnumbers the left by about 2:1.

Basically, here in Germany the left tend to throw in windows or smear graffiti and attack cops during demonstrations like those against the G20 summit. The right tends to harrass and threaten people online or with letters *, amass weapons and plan or commit terror attacks and assasinations. By that I mean that these are the types of offenses that most correlate with the respective persuasion. Left crime tends to be directed against property, right crime against people.

Foreign ideologies and religious motivation like islamist terror take a clear backseat.


*Right now we have a serious problem with rightwing terrorists, even among the police and the military. We are in the midst of a scandal involving death threats sent to (mostly female and mostly migrant) politicians and activists.... by cops!
 

anticlimatic

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I can't believe this shit is still going on two months later. The left seriously needs to come up with some new reasons to live. This has got to be outright miserable for them.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Basically, here in Germany the left tend to throw in windows or smear graffiti and attack cops during demonstrations like those against the G20 summit. The right tends to harrass and threaten people online or with letters *, amass weapons and plan or commit terror attacks and assasinations. By that I mean that these are the types of offenses that most correlate with the respective persuasion. Left crime tends to be directed against property, right crime against people.

This is my impression of the difference in this country as well. (It's interesting that this might be similarly the case in Germany). I associate the adjective "violent" with damage to someone's person (or plural, to people) or to anything living. I do not think the right is more hateful or destructive per se, but it does seem to me like they are more violent. (Hence, wanting to see a comprehensive comparison).
 

ceecee

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Anti-fascists linked to zero murders in the US in 25 years | US news | The Guardian

Fact check: left-wing violence in the United States
A new database by the Center for Strategic and International studies analyzed nearly 900 politically motivated plots and attacks in the US

0
Victims killed in anti-fascist attacks since 1994

21
Victims killed in left-wing violence since 2010

95
Victims killed in jihadist attacks since 2010

117
Victims killed in right-wing violence since 2010

329
Victims killed in right-wing violence since 1994


Keep crying about imaginary Antifa boogie men so that the right can keep on murdering. But I love that people being in the streets, that fact alone, is enough to drive the right insane.
 

anticlimatic

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William Barr Hearing: Democrats Stage Embarrassing Spectacle | National Review

It is not hard to understand, even if it is hard to accept. Democrats do not merely disagree with Donald Trump. They abhor him. Their supporters and media friends so loathe him that each “hearing,” each issue, becomes a contest of who can be the most indecorous and contemptuous. Who among us can spew the most bile?

Again and again, Barr explained that in Portland, a federal courthouse is under siege. The executive branch of the federal government has a duty to protect such installations. The very Congress to which Barr was trying to testify has enacted law that obliges the executive branch to safeguard federal courthouses. It is simply a fact that, had the Trump administration not acted to send more law enforcement agents — not “troops” as Democrats claim, not “stormtroopers” as House speaker Nancy Pelosi slanderously put it, but law enforcement officers — the courthouse would now be destroyed. And the taste of destroying it would have whet the anarchic appetite for more destruction.

It is impossible that Democrats do not know the difference between peaceful protesters and rioters, but they mulishly pretend the latter are the former. They either turn a blind eye toward the ongoing mayhem or maintain, straight-faced, that the destruction is a righteous reaction to Trump. That is the deal: No stratagem that paints the president and his administration as deserving of anything more than contempt is beyond the pale.
 

Z Buck McFate

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From Heather Cox Richardson's blog, about Barr's day testifying. I couldn't stomach watching myself because the lying and moral depravity are just too much, and the dems just don't do a good enough job staying focused on how to clarify the depravity. But I am glad this got brought up because I've been thinking about this clear double standard all week.

The most memorable moment of the hearing was when Representative Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) asked Barr why he had responded so differently to the Portland protesters than he did to the armed anti-mask protesters who had swarmed the Michigan Capitol and called for the Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, to be “lynched, shot, and beheaded.”

Barr first said he did not know about the Michigan events (this is not believable), and then suggested he was deferring to the state governor. This is belied by the deployment of federal officers in Oregon despite the strong opposition of Oregon Governor Kate Brown. More convincingly, Barr said he was deploying federal forces to defend federal property. Jayapal pointed out that a more likely difference between the two responses was that, in Michigan, white supremacists were threatening to behead a Democratic governor, and in Oregon, protesters were supporting BlackLivesMatter.

Where was all this LAW AND ORDER unmarked goon enforcement for the "very good people" protesting the masks?
 

Red Herring

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A few days ago I walked in on my SO watching the news. They were showing footage of heavily armed military looking police beating down protesters in what looked like mad violent chaos. "Oh, Hongkong again?", I asked. "No", he said, "Portland, Oregon".

I am not making this up. I really thought for a moment that it was the Chinese government cracking down on pro-democracy demonstrators.
 

Virtual ghost

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A few days ago I walked in on my SO watching the news. They were showing footage of heavily armed military looking police beating down protesters in what looked like mad violent chaos. "Oh, Hongkong again?", I asked. "No", he said, "Portland, Oregon".

I am not making this up. I really thought for a moment that it was the Chinese government cracking down on pro-democracy demonstrators.




Yeap, news from US lately look just how the news from third world countries usually look like. Hunger, riots and the madman that threatens the world.


However what is actually unbelievable is that elections still aren't really 100% decided.
Here for this kind of stuff we would almost surely have snap elections long ago. While in worst case scenario huge mobs or the military would end the political mess. Since basically everyone would be in the opposition.
 

ceecee

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A few days ago I walked in on my SO watching the news. They were showing footage of heavily armed military looking police beating down protesters in what looked like mad violent chaos. "Oh, Hongkong again?", I asked. "No", he said, "Portland, Oregon".

I am not making this up. I really thought for a moment that it was the Chinese government cracking down on pro-democracy demonstrators.

If I lived outside of the US, I would think this as well.

But ever since 2017, when ErdoÄŸan was here and there were protests at the Turkish Embassy, I knew this administration would not only not do anything about this incident (they didn't), but it would take every idea from authoritarian and totalitarian governments it could to suppress free speech and the right to protest with state sanctioned violence.


It's amazing that so many people just buy the Trump administrations explanations on it with no question when there is evidence in front of their face that says otherwise. All I know is this will turn on Trump supporters at some point, authoritarian autocrats don't simply stop with one group.
 
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