The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

[Mind Maverick]

If you go to the doctor because your allergies are acting up, do you expect her to do your annual pap smear, remove your impacted wisdom tooth, and give you physical therapy for your ankle injury at the same time? Focusing on one aspect of something does not deny the importance of others. Spreading attention and resources too thin can keep a critical mass from ever being brought to bear on any one part of the problem, with the result that nothing ever gets fixed. I wonder if that is what some people who cry "all lives matter" really want.

I think that's a rather strange comparison but I understand your point, but I don't see how "all lives matter" protesting detracts from the quality of "black lives matter" protesting.

EDIT:
I only deleted my post because I was over-analyzing it, you can leave the quote.

EDIT II:
I was saying that as a prompt for further explanation rather than denying that it's true, in case that wasn't clear.

 

[Coriolis]

I think that's a rather strange comparison but I understand your point, but I don't see how "all lives matter" protesting detracts from the quality of "black lives matter" protesting.

I'm glad the essential point got across. Many problems are too big to tackle all at once. There are two ways (at least) to see the problem with "all lives matter" protesting.

1. It diverts energy from the more focused effort, here, discrimination as it affects black people and more specifically, violence at the hands of police. Think of trying to carry a piano from the moving truck into the house. The whole truck needs to be unloaded, but it might take the combined efforts of all the movers to deal with the piano, so at some point they need to stop their other equally needful tasks and focus on this.

2. It serves as "noise" diluting the effect and impact of the BLM effort. Think of a concert at which a bunch of fans stand up, and start performing a different song; or a radio signal where you are starting to get crosstalk from another frequency. The other song or content may be entirely worthwhile, but its presence can make it impossible to enjoy or even to understand the original performance or transmission.

If violence against whites is a problem in some places, then address it for what it is. Coordinated, parallel efforts can be reinforcing, as when Jewish people have stood up for Muslims facing prejudice and attacks, just as they have had to stand up for themselves over the years. By contrast, "all lives matter" comes across as hollow, a tautology rather than a call to constructive action of any sort, contributing noise, distraction, and discord.

 

[Red Memories]

I think my friend said it best yesterday. We KNOW this isn't a race issue deep down. It is a POVERTY issue, and even moreso it is a RICH PEOPLE CONTROL issue. The rich people continue to divide us over petty things like race, sexuality, and job status because when we fight amongst ourselves we never unite to fight against THEM, THE ONES CAUSING AND ENABLING THESE ISSUES.

 

[The Cat]

I think my friend said it best yesterday. We KNOW this isn't a race issue deep down. It is a POVERTY issue, and even moreso it is a RICH PEOPLE CONTROL issue. The rich people continue to divide us over petty things like race, sexuality, and job status because when we fight amongst ourselves we never unite to fight against THEM, THE ONES CAUSING AND ENABLING THESE ISSUES.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Interesting article.

Ibram Kendi, one of the nation’s leading scholars of racism, says education and love are not the answer — The Undefeated

I should mention that the title of the article gave me an uneasy feeling, but it did prompt me to read it. What I gather is basically the idea that racism doesn't start with hate. Hate wasn't the first step to cause slavery, but the desire for money and exploitative labor, so policies were created to benefit certain people at the cost of others. Hate followed because dehumanizing ideas were used to justify those kinds of decisions after the fact. These attitudes and structural imbalances are still affecting society even though slavery itself has ended. There has since been an interplay of socially racist attitudes and systemically racist policies. So, I think the author is saying that we need to put focus and energy into fixing policies, correcting the systematic racism, and then attitudes will rebalance as a result of those structural decisions. It's a person who has analyzed the issue in depth, so the ideas are especially interesting as they are challenging to current assumptions, but also hopeful because it provides a pragmatic sort of plan to fix it. I think on a social level we should still push for greater love, education, and acceptance. I'm going to continue to encourage that in myself and others.

 

[rav3n]

Interesting article.

Ibram Kendi, one of the nation’s leading scholars of racism, says education and love are not the answer — The Undefeated

I should mention that the title of the article gave me an uneasy feeling, but it did prompt me to read it. What I gather is basically the idea that racism doesn't start with hate. Hate wasn't the first step to cause slavery, but the desire for money and exploitative labor, so policies were created to benefit certain people at the cost of others. Hate followed because dehumanizing ideas were used to justify those kinds of decisions after the fact. These attitudes and structural imbalances are still affecting society even though slavery itself has ended. There has since been an interplay of socially racist attitudes and systemically racist policies. So, I think the author is saying that we need to put focus and energy into fixing policies, correcting the systematic racism, and then attitudes will rebalance as a result of those structural decisions. It's a person who has analyzed the issue in depth, so the ideas are especially interesting as they are challenging to current assumptions, but also hopeful because it provides a pragmatic sort of plan to fix it. I think on a social level we should still push for greater love, education, and acceptance. I'm going to continue to encourage that in myself and others.

I didn't read it but from the title, the author is putting the cart before the horse. First, attitudes have to change through education and caring about your fellow man. Once the majority are onboard, next comes the public push, including voting for the politicians that will forward equality through legislative structural changes.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I didn't read it but from the title, the author is putting the cart before the horse. First, attitudes have to change through education and caring about your fellow man. Once the majority are onboard, next comes the public push, including voting for the politicians that will forward equality through legislative structural changes.

The point of the article is that he is describing how the causality is backwards. He is arguing why the cart needs to be placed before the horse. It is an interesting read, and he is a high level researcher specifically in racism, so I'm sure his points have validity. If he is wrong in his conclusions, I suspect there would still be a great deal that is enlightening. I could see how people could underestimate just how deeply their attitudes are a mere reflection of maintaining status quo, whatever that might be.

 

[ceecee]

I didn't read it but from the title, the author is putting the cart before the horse. First, attitudes have to change through education and caring about your fellow man. Once the majority are onboard, next comes the public push, including voting for the politicians that will forward equality through legislative structural changes.

I would really recommend reading his book - How To Be an Antiracist.

He's absolutely correct that education, love, exemplary behavior by blacks (the non-violent protests so many whites hate but insist on from blacks) is not the answer. If it was, we'd already be racist free.

Racist ideas grow out of discriminatory policies, they have to go before anything else. Or the institutional/systemic racism will remain, regardless of what the individuals think of feel. It's not about ignorance, it's about self-interest - political, economic and cultural. US laws are based on white supremacy, generally white people are writing and creating and enforcing the laws, why would they be anything other than self-interest fulfilling? Why do so many of them go totally apeshit when someone brings it up?

 

[Coriolis]

I think my friend said it best yesterday. We KNOW this isn't a race issue deep down. It is a POVERTY issue, and even moreso it is a RICH PEOPLE CONTROL issue. The rich people continue to divide us over petty things like race, sexuality, and job status because when we fight amongst ourselves we never unite to fight against THEM, THE ONES CAUSING AND ENABLING THESE ISSUES.

Poverty is a big part of the issue, and the poverty of blacks relative to whites has its roots in discriminatory practices that started with slavery and continued in various restrictions and constraints that prevented them from improving their lot. It is hardly the whole story, though. Wealthy blacks including celebrities and lawmakers are sometimes subject to the same racial discrimination as poor blacks, while poor whites still benefit from "white privilege".

Interesting article.

Ibram Kendi, one of the nation’s leading scholars of racism, says education and love are not the answer — The Undefeated

I should mention that the title of the article gave me an uneasy feeling, but it did prompt me to read it. What I gather is basically the idea that racism doesn't start with hate. Hate wasn't the first step to cause slavery, but the desire for money and exploitative labor, so policies were created to benefit certain people at the cost of others. Hate followed because dehumanizing ideas were used to justify those kinds of decisions after the fact. These attitudes and structural imbalances are still affecting society even though slavery itself has ended. There has since been an interplay of socially racist attitudes and systemically racist policies. So, I think the author is saying that we need to put focus and energy into fixing policies, correcting the systematic racism, and then attitudes will rebalance as a result of those structural decisions. It's a person who has analyzed the issue in depth, so the ideas are especially interesting as they are challenging to current assumptions, but also hopeful because it provides a pragmatic sort of plan to fix it. I think on a social level we should still push for greater love, education, and acceptance. I'm going to continue to encourage that in myself and others.

I agree about the origins of slavery, and other forms of discrimination. Man's inhumanity to man is often rooted in economic and material interests. Presenting another subset of humanity as "other", especially in a way that vilifies or demeans them, has always been used to help justify this inhumanity, everything from slavery to waging war on them to genocide.

Which needs to come first - policy change or attitude change - is a bit like the chicken and the egg. Policies and laws can be changed, but if they are widely unpopular, they will not be enforced and the injustices they were meant to address will continue. On the other hand, a change in policy that is enforced will provide more opportunities for people to change their attitudes, often through increased encounters with the disadvantaged group which bring them face to face with their shared humanity. This is what happened in the US military, which ended racially discriminatory policies in 1948. Racism persists to this day in the military, but the situation has improved dramatically, and the military has led many other spheres of society in addressing discrimination overall.

Prejudice and discrimination are such that, for policy to change, people in the privileged group must come to see change as desirable, since they have the power to enact it. This suggests that a change of attitude must come first, at least among those in authority. This was starkly obvious 100 years ago: it took the agreement of an all male legislature to gain for women the right to vote.

 

[rav3n]

The point of the article is that he is describing how the causality is backwards. He is arguing why the cart needs to be placed before the horse. It is an interesting read, and he is a high level researcher specifically in racism, so I'm sure his points have validity. If he is wrong in his conclusions, I suspect there would still be a great deal that is enlightening. I could see how people could underestimate just how deeply their attitudes are a mere reflection of maintaining status quo, whatever that might be.

I would really recommend reading his book - How To Be an Antiracist.

He's absolutely correct that education, love, exemplary behavior by blacks (the non-violent protests so many whites hate but insist on from blacks) is not the answer. If it was, we'd already be racist free.

Racist ideas grow out of discriminatory policies, they have to go before anything else. Or the institutional/systemic racism will remain, regardless of what the individuals think of feel. It's not about ignorance, it's about self-interest - political, economic and cultural. US laws are based on white supremacy, generally white people are writing and creating and enforcing the laws, why would they be anything other than self-interest fulfilling? Why do so many of them go totally apeshit when someone brings it up?

I'm not suggesting that his ideas are wrong. I'm looking at it from the perspective of reality and navigating power structures within democracies.

 

[anticlimatic]

Poverty is a big part of the issue, and the poverty of blacks relative to whites has its roots in discriminatory practices that started with slavery and continued in various restrictions and constraints that prevented them from improving their lot. It is hardly the whole story, though. Wealthy blacks including celebrities and lawmakers are sometimes subject to the same racial discrimination as poor blacks, while poor whites still benefit from "white privilege". I agree about the origins of slavery, and other forms of discrimination. Man's inhumanity to man is often rooted in economic and material interests. Presenting another subset of humanity as "other", especially in a way that vilifies or demeans them, has always been used to help justify this inhumanity, everything from slavery to waging war on them to genocide. Which needs to come first - policy change or attitude change - is a bit like the chicken and the egg. Policies and laws can be changed, but if they are widely unpopular, they will not be enforced and the injustices they were meant to address will continue. On the other hand, a change in policy that is enforced will provide more opportunities for people to change their attitudes, often through increased encounters with the disadvantaged group which bring them face to face with their shared humanity. This is what happened in the US military, which ended racially discriminatory policies in 1948. Racism persists to this day in the military, but the situation has improved dramatically, and the military has led many other spheres of society in addressing discrimination overall. Prejudice and discrimination are such that, for policy to change, people in the privileged group must come to see change as desirable, since they have the power to enact it. This suggests that a change of attitude must come first, at least among those in authority. This was starkly obvious 100 years ago: it took the agreement of an all male legislature to gain for women the right to vote.

The problem with manipulating policy and zeitgeist attitudes as tools for driving down the racial inequity many people refer to as "systemic racism," is that the policy end already has a negative interest rate- the few bits of policy that are actually racist skew in favor of minorities, like affirmative action. The idea that changing policy is a tool that can be used is the idea that we need more racist policies, not less, and I struggle to imagine a scenario where more racism somehow generates less racism.

As for the attitudes of the zeitgeist, you will first need to figure out how to stop the infighting. Until then, any idea or agenda one "side" takes up, the other is obligated to take up the opposite. We politicized a pandemic within a week. I already have progressives on my Facebook feed who think not wearing a mask to the grocery store is a dog whistle for racism. If you thinking changing cultural attitudes is a solution you are first going to have to prove that cultural attitudes can change at all, for the better. All I see is a perpetual and seemingly unstoppable hate filled decline.

The only solutions I can conceive beyond the slow racial dilution of time involve either importing people from low opportunity areas into high opportunity areas (like through similar employment programs as foreigner work visas- though those only work because of the inflated value of the dollar relative to their home currency, so I'm not sure how a national program would work), or by heavily investing in low opportunity areas. Top down investment would likely be insufficient and wasted, but if incentive could be created for bottom up investment- cheap property, cheap taxes, etc- allowing individual entrepreneurs the opportunity to literally help themselves while helping others, there could be significant impact. Of course this will need to be paired with high levels of law enforcement to protect the emerging economy from itself for a generation or so, and the rioting would also have to be guaranteed to be over, or nobody will ever want to invest in these areas.

In other words the only pragmatic solutions I can conceive of are never going to happen in the current political climate. People talk about poor white people voting against their interests by voting for big buisness conservatives, but what about poor minority people in cities voting liberals in that keep city taxes too high to invite decent investment (and sometimes outright block it, the way AOC did with the Amazon factory), underfund police to protect it if it was there, and condone rioting/looting that solidifies poverty for decades.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Poverty is a big part of the issue, and the poverty of blacks relative to whites has its roots in discriminatory practices that started with slavery and continued in various restrictions and constraints that prevented them from improving their lot. It is hardly the whole story, though. Wealthy blacks including celebrities and lawmakers are sometimes subject to the same racial discrimination as poor blacks, while poor whites still benefit from "white privilege".


I agree about the origins of slavery, and other forms of discrimination. Man's inhumanity to man is often rooted in economic and material interests. Presenting another subset of humanity as "other", especially in a way that vilifies or demeans them, has always been used to help justify this inhumanity, everything from slavery to waging war on them to genocide.

Which needs to come first - policy change or attitude change - is a bit like the chicken and the egg. Policies and laws can be changed, but if they are widely unpopular, they will not be enforced and the injustices they were meant to address will continue. On the other hand, a change in policy that is enforced will provide more opportunities for people to change their attitudes, often through increased encounters with the disadvantaged group which bring them face to face with their shared humanity. This is what happened in the US military, which ended racially discriminatory policies in 1948. Racism persists to this day in the military, but the situation has improved dramatically, and the military has led many other spheres of society in addressing discrimination overall.

Prejudice and discrimination are such that, for policy to change, people in the privileged group must come to see change as desirable, since they have the power to enact it. This suggests that a change of attitude must come first, at least among those in authority. This was starkly obvious 100 years ago: it took the agreement of an all male legislature to gain for women the right to vote.

This is the issue I wasn't able to make sense of from the article. The issue of 'how' does the policy get changed first. Perhaps part of the issue is that we need politicians that actually represent the population. Campaign finance reform where funding cannot come in large sums from corporations and individuals controlling their self interest is foundational. If there is a way to get the under-privileged groups represented in the policy makers, then policies can change. The idea of democracy is supposed to be able to function to fix these social imbalances, but it has been so thwarted by corporations that it makes it more difficult. There needs to be a better way for communities and states to enable their own natural leaders and representatives to emerge in the political process.

 

[Red Memories]

I feel like I want to get into some history here...

Firsthand, yes America had slaves. For a very long time many places had slaves, and they were not strictly of color. Irish people faced slavery. Egypt had slavery for much of their pyramid building. The biggest reason America had black slaves was that trans-atlantic slave route.

African countries at the time had a lot of tribal wars, and they would sell their prisoners of war. These are what became the slaves. We cannot even account for the countless lives who didn't even make it to shore, just thrown overboard. The trade was cruel and inhumane at best. And I do not deny the horrors of any sort of human trafficking of this manner. Human trafficking in any form should be ended. But the issue is slavery still exists in ways today. It exists in farming communities who bring hispanics up to do harvesting and barely pay them. It involves China and their literal sweatshops THAT INCLUDE CHILDREN.

There's no denying forms of racism still exist today, and education is a very important part of it. However, sadly, since racism is taught, these people have to be willing to look at their biases and see where their prejudices exist. But here's some of my issues.

1. Why are we using the term privilege? Yes I realize [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] you state that white poor still experience white privilege, but what even qualifies as that? We're using this term, that's actually very racially based in itself when we're trying to remove racial biases, and most can't properly fathom what that is. I've heard so many different definitions of "privilege". I've had people send me quizzes and I am considered unprivileged to most. Maybe it is because I'm a small framed woman. But I don't see where fearing the police is something white people don't do. Whenever I see a police officer I get a lot of anxiety. That's called acknowledging authority. When you do something bad and you are worried your parents will find out, it'll give you anxiety. If you have some sorta conscience. Up my road, I saw a squad of police, with one of those military looking vehicles, break down the door of a house to arrest the men inside. They were white. I see a lot of white people in Idaho that seem as scary as any description of a "ghetto" individual. Prejudices are not always skin color. If I see anyone with a gun I'm nervous. If I see some dude with gang tats of any race I'm nervous. When I see these idiots walking with their pants hanging half down and think its sexy I judge them all equally, black white or hispanic. Although the blacks here usually know how to wear their pants... You are claiming I have a privilege of "knowing" the police will not kill me and that isn't true. You absolutely CANNOT predict any person and the police could very well have a bad day and decide to kill me. We got white guys pulling up to churches with fucking katanas waving them around. A privilege that is very inherent is money though. If you have wealth, you can afford the best degrees, you somehow have this power to speak whatever and not face the same consequences. You can do all kinds of illegal drugs and not get arrested, literally post it anywhere you want, brag about it. You can get off with small time because you can afford the greatest lawyers and the greatest of everything. You can buy this fancy security to protect you from any low level shit. These seem like the people we should be targetting. The thing is too, I have grown up without a father. I have grown up with shitty circumstances. My older brother was aggressive and at times physically violent to the point I had to protect my little siblings FROM HIM. Both of my little siblings are disabled. My mother lives on disability and without grandpa we'd all be homeless. On top of that he's shit with his finances so growing up I constantly had to worry about homelessness and I never asked for much at all because I didn't want to be the reason we had NOTHING. My oldest brother died. We cannot afford most medical care. All our teeth aren't in great condition because dentists are pricey as hell. I am using student loans to go to the same shitty state colleges these people often have to go to, or maybe not since some of them are sports talented. I reported a sexual predator online to CPS through my therapist because he emotionally abused me along with sending me explicit pictures and having some of me (not bare nude) which since I was 14-16 could equate to having child pornography and absolutely NOTHING happened to him. He is still on the fucking internet. Tell me about my fucking privilege again. When you start telling people they have privilege when they don't even feel or acknowledge a "privilege" they can attribute to their overall shitty quality of life you begin to get PISSED OFF and feel like they're actually being pretty fucking racist themselves. It seems to me because of history, blacks have a privilege to say all white people are racist bigots who keep them from being better people. Which in some ways, they have. There's other people who are prevented from getting places too, because of people with more privilege elsewhere. Growing up the most iconic celebrities I knew of were black: Beyonce, Whitney Houston, Stevie Wonder. Seem to me some of them have a lot more privilege than I do. I don't think we should start getting into arguments of privilege because privilege exists outside of race completely. It has way more to do with where you were born, who birthed you, and how much money they have. I was born of some west virginia country hicks and I don't experience this "privilege" I'm supposed to have. Can someone ship it to me? I was at a welfare office to get a background check for an internship and the cop there glared me down the whole hallway he walked up and it gave me enough anxiety I wanted to leave. Fuck this argument. Fuck the privilege shit. All this does is divide people and piss them off because NOT EVERYONE HAS PRIVILEGE BECAUSE THEY'RE WHITE. Go to a very poor white community and tell me where you find their privilege when they also have no jobs, also turn to drugs, and live similar lifestyles to these black ghettos. Don't tell me about privilege if you've only seen that one part of it. I'm not ignoring the issue of racial disparity but I am absolutely sick of being told to care and be on their side I have to get on my knees and apologize, basically, for being a white person. How is THAT not racist as all fuck? How is THAT okay? If you want to END THE RACE ISSUE, you cannot fight it with RACIAL BIAS. It sounds like you do not just want equality, police reform, or aid. It sounds like you want the power and control you feel white america has. I want power and control too. God I wish when I said something everyone hailed me like a saint but hey, only 1% of people here really get to experience that level of life excitement. Most of us just go get our 9-5 shift jobs where we slowly hate our lives, hate the world we live in, never get to follow any of our real life dreams, and barely get by and having to constantly worry about bills, tickets, mortgages, and sometimes work more than one job. Hell, a huge portion of people get a degree now and never touch the field of their major. I feel for them, for their fear, for their bad experience. I am not gonna act like they're the only people to ever experience anything horrible. I see Native Americans TODAY RIGHT NOW still being horribly disregarded. Not one person screams their life matters. Not one of these people cry Black lives matter when that black man kills their own brother. No one is crying white lives matter when a stupid fucking redneck with a deathwish gets shot by the police (and for good because they don't deserve that). I have grown up in a way that I have heard racism around me. It exists. Absolutely. I hear very little of it from the outside world. We had a black president. A bunch of these protestors? White. I hear some black americans telling some of these people they're getting too fucking crazy and to chill some. 62% of the police force in New York isn't even white now. They went into the occupations to create change and their own people call them uncle toms, coons, and all kinds of horrible shit. I've seen stories of black people discussing going to school to better themselves and get an education only to be disowned by their families for not being "black enough". If you're not going to change your own negative cultures how do you expect to see results? My parents struggle to get by but they let me focus on schooling because they want me to have a better life than they have. I want to be able to provide. My family is going to need someone's care and minimum wage is not enough. These big corporations care for no one, and it isn't about race. I got hurt at walmart and got treated like shit. I reported someone for harassment 3 fucking times. Nothing happened until my mexican coworker went to the store manager because she felt if they didn't stop him I would quit. I experienced a form of sexual harassment from another coworker that went untouched. According to white privilege, I shouldn't be afraid of police. When I cry to authority that something is happening to me they will listen and handle the issue promptly since I am "white". According to white privilege no one ever judges me for my race, yet I'm hearing a lot of that. According to my white privilege, I should have all kinds of opportunities that I don't really have. I should easily get that job and things like that. No, I gotta rummage through the mess of the world too. And the middle class person has it really bad. Why? Because they're not poor enough to warrant the same level of loans or aid, but they aren't rich enough to afford the things like education or maybe even their food after paying the rent. I think I'd be more sympathetic to this plight if everything stopped being about how dirty and bad every fucking white person is. I've never hurt a black person in my life. I befriended a couple refugees when I was in college, both very kind and sweet people. A couple of the most loving people I'd met. Both were of color, one definitely black, and they were also islamic while I am a devout Christian. We just loved each other because that is what God, whoever we see Him as, wanted us to do. Fuck people who use religion for any sort of bigotry too.

2. I have an issue with certain cases within BLM. Not so much this one, because, he did not do something that warranted this response from the officer. Maybe if it was the case back when this same exact man put a GUN to a PREGNANT WOMAN'S STOMACH that it would possibly be even remotely warranted. I dislike people crying police brutality if you resist arrest, you spit in a cops face, etc. If you fight the law the law will fight you. I am not at all for stop and frisk or anything of this nature, certainly black people do not deserve to be singled out. There are plenty of white druggies, gangsters, and thugs. I think they're pieces of shit too. Crying racism if a cop stops you for anything if you are a person of color is ridiculous and makes the officers have less and less civility. I think honestly sometimes, they bring this on themselves. Not racism, not what happened here, but when that cop throws them to the ground for not listening. I've seen people not black face similar repercussions and that doesn't get a giant headline. Is that police brutality too? Or does it only matter if you are of color? Some of the people facing charges DESERVE THEIR CHARGES. Some of these people, news flash, ARE ACTUALLY BAD PEOPLE. The cops are here to protect and serve. They actually don't get paid shit, they get 8ish weeks of half assed training usually and shoved out into a very traumatic job where they receive little mental health aid. To make real reform, actually pay them right, train them right, and give them the mental health treatment they need to cope with the harassment of being an officer. I sympathize with the plight of blacks but I don't think this is a reason to suddenly state that the police should in fact not exist and are all racist. Are the minorities who are police officers racist toward themselves? Does a young black man in the army hate himself? I mean do I hate myself if I complain how a few people abuse the metoo movement to get revenge on men that pissed them off? No, I just want an equal justice that is FAIR. I am not condemning any and all blacks. I'm not gonna condemn any and all cops. My therapist said all or nothing thinking is very bad for you. This is all or nothing prejudice related to groups and it is just as unhealthy and unfair.

3. I am sick of these movements really just being someone's woke points. Honestly, I wish we'd really investigate the root of many of the issues existing, with critical thinking, and try to make positive changes. Like removing the immunity law, or making things easier for victims to come forward. Having internal investigations to weed out bad cops and work things back together in a correct manner. Right now people get their social media likes by jumping in a protest for 5 minutes, acting like they give a shit by screaming words they give 2 shits about, then go back to their every day life like nothing happened. All they do is find ways to feed their narcissism and using the plight of other people to do it is absolutely disgusting. Stop it.

4. I'm beyond sick of if you question ANYTHING of ANYTHING happening you are automatically a racist bigot. I'm not racist. I took the stupid test, although I think the test is messy at best. Prejudices are usually learned. If you grew up seeing black people shoot other people and deal drugs and do horrible shit you'll probably think black is bad. If your parents told you they do that shit you'll think black is bad. If you saw these exact same things from whites or hispanics or any group of particular people you'd judge them too. I faced bullying from my own church youth groups so honestly, I view youth groups as a negative place I do not want to be in. I view youth group leaders as being complicit to the problems. ITS SO EASY TO DO. But as time went on I realized NO. Not every youth group is bad and not every youth minister is bad. THOSE people were bad and THOSE ministers were complicit. I hold the people who did it accountable. But I sadly realize so few people take the time to objectively look at a situation and realize any, all, every group has bad people.You can find bad people anywhere, anytime. They may even be hiding in plain sight. A lot of bad people don't actually look like bad people until you see it, happening, or it is happening to you. This is an issue of prejudices as well, and social classes and how people are treated within classes. Let me tell you, most people think I am dumb. Why? I was homeschooled. There's a serious stereotype about homeschoolers. We are considered to be sheltered kids enlightened by our overprotective likely christian cult parents who halfway abuse us and we're actually dumb and cannot socialize. Guess what? I'm outgoing, my mom is a christian but she is a staunch feminist who believes people should choose whatever the fuck they want so she didn't even make us choose religion, she just told us about it and then said its up to us if we believe in anything, and we're actually allowed to have opinions. Oh by the way I did actually do homework, get passed,a nd become a straight A student in college. And I admit, totally, some of my ambition to do that, was being called dumb and sheltered by so many people. I was out to prove I was not just able, but I could be fucking smarter than them. Now I realize from psychology, learned helplessness is also a thing. I'm gonna get into that next.

5. Now let's do that. Learned helplessness is in fact, when you have been in a bad situation such as poverty, abuse, or addiction for SO LONG, that you do not feel you can overcome it, so you merely become complacent to it. This is why I absolutely am for sending more aid to these communities. Not only that, but all impoverished communities. It has been proven that poverty becomes like a mental state. You get obsessed with surviving and you never really find a way to escape that mental state. These people need aid, they need therapists and social workers to help them up and back onto their feet. They need those with the blessings of the privilege of wealth to go to these communities and truly help them. Not just make a tagline on their website to make it look like they give a shit when they don't. They need people in these occupations to care. They need their own to go into these occupations to highlight their very real experiences. But although we acknowledge it, no one funds helping them. I wonder why...well if we helped them then we wouldn't need this giant budget going towards the police. There'd be less crime. We wouldn't need this giant budget into things like welfare as much because more people would have stability to get by on their own. Instead, the wealthy and polticians have abandoned their duty to help those with less than them, ignored their plight, and handed them some shit and said here now stop bitching. I mean, that's basically what my mother on SSI gets. Medicaid doesn't afford you a real psychologist that she would need to actually manage and treat her severe mental illness issue. They offer subpar counselors who don't really know how to handle severe PTSD and GAD mixing, along with depression and OCD. We have doctors that can't afford their student loans (where the fuck is that giant medical bill I pay going anyway? I know it isn't to their paychecks and that's just sad.) Society punishes people actually contributing to helping the world by paying them poorly, treating them poorly, and underfunding them. We give billions to some asshole who acts like he doesn't treat his employees like shit but in fact does. Companies, the wealthy, they all have a social responsibility since they are the ones that can truly create the change. I'm just a pin in a haystack. I don't have the money to do jack shit even if I wanted to. It'll take me years to get anywhere and the only reason I'm gonna have a house is because my grandfather is leaving it to me. And that's so my mother doesn't end up homeless, because guess what disability funds is barely enough to pay for jack shit. I'D LOVE TO SEE MORE MONEY GO TO THESE THINGS. FOR EVERYONE'S NEEDS. And every single person of any race, any gender, any sexuality should receive it. I would love to see a world of real equality, where men, women, white or black or hispanic or whoever, of whatever sexuality, of whatever identity, see opportunity in their life.

***I started writing this this morning, took me way too long to finish this. But I have my points to make and I made them so there.***

 

[Coriolis]

I don't have time now to address everything you wrote, but will make a couple quick points.

Firsthand, yes America had slaves. For a very long time many places had slaves, and they were not strictly of color. Irish people faced slavery. Egypt had slavery for much of their pyramid building. The biggest reason America had black slaves was that trans-atlantic slave route.

The trans-atlantic slave route took off because of the appeal of black slaves over the alternatives. America first had indentured servants, white Europeans who worked to pay off their passage to the New World. Then, they tried to enslave Native Americans. They tended to die in captivity, and had a ready support structure should they manage to run away. Black slaves were hardier, were readily recognizable due to their skin color, and were completely cut off from any help or support.

1. Why are we using the term privilege? Yes I realize [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] you state that white poor still experience white privilege, but what even qualifies as that? We're using this term, that's actually very racially based in itself when we're trying to remove racial biases, and most can't properly fathom what that is. I've heard so many different definitions of "privilege".

Here's my definition: the benefit of the doubt a white person gets, just because of being white. There have been numerous cases of even well-to-do black people being reported to the police while doing normal things like entering their own home, mowing the lawn, birdwatching, leaving an AirBnB, eating lunch in a college dining hall, putting money into a parking meter, etc. The list goes on. Even if there was something a bit questionable about these circumstances (e.g. the person mowing accidently mowed a strip of the neighbor lawn), perhaps especially if there was something a little odd, a white person would have been given the benefit of the doubt. It's the difference between saying, "Hey - that's my lawn, you don't need to mow there!" and calling the cops.

You don't have to recognize white privilege to have it. You can be terrified of police and still have it. That is because privilege is not about how you feel, it is about how you are treated. However poor or disadvantaged you are, a black person in the same situation generally has it worse. The black man and the white woman may feel equally scared but statistically, the white woman is more likely to be treated with courtesy and come out unharmed in the same circumstances, EVEN if the black man is wealthy and educated.

A city near me recently had a curfew in place due to protests. A young college student I know mentioned that she would arrive back at her apartment after the curfew. I asked if she would get in any trouble. She said no, it's OK if you are returning from work, and don't linger on the streets. But then she is a white woman. I mentioned that to her, and she agreed that a black man is much more likely to be questioned in such a situation, especially in that city.

More generally, we can't remove racial biases without recognizing them for what they are, which involves naming them, i.e. calling a spade a spade. That's like trying to remove stains from clothing by refusing to call them stains.

 

[ceecee]

I don't have time now to address everything you wrote, but will make a couple quick points.


The trans-atlantic slave route took off because of the appeal of black slaves over the alternatives. America first had indentured servants, white Europeans who worked to pay off their passage to the New World. Then, they tried to enslave Native Americans. They tended to die in captivity, and had a ready support structure should they manage to run away. Black slaves were hardier, were readily recognizable due to their skin color, and were completely cut off from any help or support.


Here's my definition: the benefit of the doubt a white person gets, just because of being white. There have been numerous cases of even well-to-do black people being reported to the police while doing normal things like entering their own home, mowing the lawn, birdwatching, leaving an AirBnB, eating lunch in a college dining hall, putting money into a parking meter, etc. The list goes on. Even if there was something a bit questionable about these circumstances (e.g. the person mowing accidently mowed a strip of the neighbor lawn), perhaps especially if there was something a little odd, a white person would have been given the benefit of the doubt. It's the difference between saying, "Hey - that's my lawn, you don't need to mow there!" and calling the cops.

You don't have to recognize white privilege to have it. You can be terrified of police and still have it. That is because privilege is not about how you feel, it is about how you are treated. However poor or disadvantaged you are, a black person in the same situation generally has it worse. The black man and the white woman may feel equally scared but statistically, the white woman is more likely to be treated with courtesy and come out unharmed in the same circumstances, EVEN if the black man is wealthy and educated.

A city near me recently had a curfew in place due to protests. A young college student I know mentioned that she would arrive back at her apartment after the curfew. I asked if she would get in any trouble. She said no, it's OK if you are returning from work, and don't linger on the streets. But then she is a white woman. I mentioned that to her, and she agreed that a black man is much more likely to be questioned in such a situation, especially in that city.

More generally, we can't remove racial biases without recognizing them for what they are, which involves naming them, i.e. calling a spade a spade. That's like trying to remove stains from clothing by refusing to call them stains.

Just to add a good, short piece of reading to this post - you can be poor, you can be discriminated against, you certainly can have suffered. Being white invalidates none of these things. I truly think this is where the disconnect is for many white people that learning and understanding intersectionality could help.

EXPLAINING WHITE PRIVILEGE TO A BROKE WHITE PERSON...

https://amesburyquakers.org/wp-cont...g_white_privilege_to_a_broke_white_person.pdf

 

[Lark]

Just to add a good, short piece of reading to this post - you can be poor, you can be discriminated against, you certainly can have suffered. Being white invalidates none of these things. I truly think this is where the disconnect is for many white people that learning and understanding intersectionality could help.

EXPLAINING WHITE PRIVILEGE TO A BROKE WHITE PERSON...

https://amesburyquakers.org/wp-cont...g_white_privilege_to_a_broke_white_person.pdf

Its pretty simple, white privilege is not the only sort of privilege, you could well be suffering from a different sort of under privilege and still be privileged by virtue of their race.

The pattern is different in other parts of the world or other contexts. It happens.

 

[Red Memories]

Just to add a good, short piece of reading to this post - you can be poor, you can be discriminated against, you certainly can have suffered. Being white invalidates none of these things. I truly think this is where the disconnect is for many white people that learning and understanding intersectionality could help.

EXPLAINING WHITE PRIVILEGE TO A BROKE WHITE PERSON...

https://amesburyquakers.org/wp-cont...g_white_privilege_to_a_broke_white_person.pdf

I wanted to publicly state I really appreciated this reading. Thank you.

 

[Coriolis]

I wanted to publicly state I really appreciated this reading. Thank you.

And I appreciate your expressing your own views so openly, and being receptive to discussion.

 

[anticlimatic]

It is an inherent property of intelligence that it can jump out of the task which it is performing, and survey what it has done; it is always looking for, and often finding, patterns. Now, I said that an intelligence can jump out of its task, but that does not mean that it always will. Of course, there are cases where only a rare individule will have the vision to percieve a system which governs many peoples’ lives, a system which had never before even been recognized as a system; then such people often devote their lives to convincing other people that the system really is there, and that it ought to be exited from.

Douglas Hofstadter