The Hatred of the True Self

[Mole]

The false self is an effective form of social control.

We long for a false self so that we can be effective in society such as having a job, a boyfriend or girlfriend, and independence.

So when we don't have a job, a partner, and we are dependent financially and emotionally on our parents, we naturally look for a false self.

Society doesn't value the true self, so nurturing our true self will not make us acceptable in society, and we won't belong, we will be outcast.

And there being such a strong demand for a false self, there is naturally a strong supply. And mbti supplies ready made false selves for everyone.

Mbti comes like an epiphany, like rain after a long drought, we are grateful that we can now interact with other false selves.

And so we enter a conspiracy of false selves, all the more potent, because it seems natural and unplanned. How can it be a conspiracy?

But even such a happy and joyful conspiracy has its dark side and that is the hatred of the true self.

 

[Qlip]

People are the total of what they're made of, where they've been, what they remember, how they see themselves, others and what they want to be and much more. Selfness is an identification with something as part of our existence, it can't be true or false unless somebody lays an agenda on it, implies some sort of structure with a purpose. Imagine a person having a purpose, that's a trip.

Do you have an agenda, Mole?

 

[Mole]

People are the total of what they're made of, where they've been, what they remember, how they see themselves, others and what they want to be and much more. Selfness is an identification with something as part of our existence, it can't be true or false unless somebody lays an agenda on it, implies some sort of structure with a purpose. Imagine a person having a purpose, that's a trip.

Do you have an agenda, Mole?

Of course I am partisan.

I love the true self because it is alive, and I hate the false self because it is phoney and a dead thing.

I love the true self because it is independent, and I hate the false self because it is dependent on how it is seen.

I love the true self because it dances, and I hate the false self because it is pedestrian.

I love the true self because it is courageous, and I hate the false self because it is cowardly.

I love the true self because it is imaginative, and I hate the false self because conformist.

The false self loves social control while the true self loves liberation.

 

[Qlip]

Of course I am partisan.

I love the true self because it is alive, and I hate the false self because it is phoney and a dead thing.

I love the true self because it is independent, and I hate the false self because it is dependent on how it is seen.

I love the true self because it dances, and I hate the false self because it is pedestrian.

I love the true self because it is courageous, and I hate the false self because it is cowardly.

I love the true self because it is imaginative, and I hate the false self because conformist.

The false self loves social control while the true self loves liberation.

Ah, well, I've always felt I was brave enough to see that I am an imaginative conformist, courageous coward, a pedestrian dancer, an independent dependent and a walking dead man. That's my all-self, and I love it.

 

[Opal]

I love my true self.

Life would be immeasurably more chaotic, though, if our raw energies refused to blend and cooperate.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

All selves are false.

The true self is a distortion bred from irrational idealism.

The false selves are merely facades that facilitate interaction.

The creation of the "true" self is a reaction to the dissonance created by the false ones, whose behaviors unsettle us, allowing us the liberty to indulge the illusion that our false selves are simply acts we put on and not truths, that the false selves are somehow subordinate in authenticity to the true self.

Rather, the true self is no more true than the false selves are. Yet we still defend ourselves against the evidence that points to the contrary, simply because we irrationally desire to be right, and not wrong. We distort the world around us, denouncing our "false" selves as untrue of ourselves because they seem wrong and conflict with our own self-image, our "true", ideal self, and we distort information and evidence to serve our own outlandish worldviews and beliefs, so that we can't be wrong.

We must be right, or else we are wrong, and we must not be wrong, so we shall delude ourselves that we are right. Perhaps eventually we will realize that all of our selves are reflective of a "true" self, and that debate isn't about who's right, but about what's right. Maybe then we will be able to overcome our irrationality.

 

[Mole]

Ah, well, I've always felt I was brave enough to see that I am an imaginative conformist, courageous coward, a pedestrian dancer, an independent dependent and a walking dead man. That's my all-self, and I love it.

We perceive by making distinctions, and the more distinctions, the more we see.

And being mortal, contingent human beings and not Gods, we are only able to see one side of a distinction at one time.

So the distinction between the false self and the true self enables us to perceive, to see.

And interestingly, once we can see though one side of distinction, we are able to move between the distinctions, but only one at a time.

Only a God can inhabit both sides of a distinction at the same time.

And here is the calculus of distinctions http://morephilosophystuff.pbworks.com/f/99999999-Spencer-G-Brown-Laws-of-Form-1979-Edition.pdf

 

[Qlip]

We perceive by making distinctions, and the more distinctions, the more we see.

And being mortal, contingent human beings and not Gods, we are only able to see one side of a distinction at one time.

So the distinction between the false self and the true self enables us to perceive, to see.

And interestingly, once we can see though one side of distinction, we are able to move between the distinctions, but only one at a time.

Only a God can inhabit both sides of a distinction at the same time.

And here is the calculus of distinctions http://morephilosophystuff.pbworks.com/f/99999999-Spencer-G-Brown-Laws-of-Form-1979-Edition.pdf

Well, then, it's just a wonder that I have memory then. It's a strange trick I employ where I can summon seeing one distinction at one time and another at an altogether different time. Then I reconcile with mathematics. Magic.

I'm relieved that this was simple to explain as the alternative was to conclude that I am in fact The God. This realization would prompt pondering that would derail some outings I had planned this week.

 

[Opal]

<---- (pretend the arrow is level with my username)

All selves are false.

The true self is a distortion bred from irrational idealism.

The false selves are merely facades that facilitate interaction.

The creation of the "true" self is a reaction to the dissonance created by the false ones, whose behaviors unsettle us, allowing us the liberty to indulge the illusion that our false selves are simply acts we put on and not truths, that the false selves are somehow subordinate in authenticity to the true self.

Rather, the true self is no more true than the false selves are. Yet we still defend ourselves against the evidence that points to the contrary, simply because we irrationally desire to be right, and not wrong. We distort the world around us, denouncing our "false" selves as untrue of ourselves because they seem wrong and conflict with our own self-image, our "true", ideal self, and we distort information and evidence to serve our own outlandish worldviews and beliefs, so that we can't be wrong.

We must be right, or else we are wrong, and we must not be wrong, so we shall delude ourselves that we are right. Perhaps eventually we will realize that all of our selves are reflective of a "true" self, and that debate isn't about who's right, but about what's right. Maybe then we will be able to overcome our irrationality.

 

[Dopa]

I think mole is talking about living from within vs. living from how others view you, a sort of narcissism. Some people are only concerned with how they will look to other people. They have forgotten that they have their own desires beneath the 3rd-person self-consciousness of how they appear to society. To live from within is to drop out of society in a sense... you might still be in it literally, but you no longer care about how it judges you a success or a failure, etc. It's a much quieter, simpler life. For most people however, it would require a psychological death to access... to most, letting go of people's approval is so terrifying they don't even conceive of it.

 

[Evee]

"I shall never forget that night of December," writes Jouffroy, "in which the veil that concealed from me my own incredulity was torn. I hear again my steps in that narrow naked chamber where long after the hour of sleep had come I had the habit of walking up and down. I see again that moon, half-veiled by clouds, which now and again illuminated the frigid window-panes. The hours of the night flowed on and I did not note their passage. Anxiously I followed my thoughts, as from layer to layer they descended towards the foundation of my consciousness, and, scattering one by one all the illusions which until then had screened its windings from my view, made them every moment more clearly visible.

Vainly I clung to these last beliefs as a shipwrecked sailor clings to the fragments of his vessel; vainly, frightened at the unknown void in which I was about to float, I turned with them towards my childhood, my family, my country, all that was dear and sacred to me: the inflexible current of my thought was too strong, -- parents, family, memory, beliefs, it forced me to let go of everything. The investigation went on more obstinate and more severe as it drew near its term, and did not stop until the end was reached. I knew then that in the depth of my mind nothing was left that stood erect.

This moment was a frightful one; and when towards morning I threw myself exhausted on my bed, I seemed to feel my earlier life, so smiling and so full, go out like a fire, and before me another life opened, sombre and unpeopled, where in future I must live alone, alone with my fatal thought which had exiled me thither, and which I was tempted to curse. The days which followed this discovery were the saddest of my life."

 

[Cellmold]

I'd stop thinking about little children first before lecturing others on the self.

 

[Mole]

I think mole is talking about living from within vs. living from how others view you, a sort of narcissism. Some people are only concerned with how they will look to other people. They have forgotten that they have their own desires beneath the 3rd-person self-consciousness of how they appear to society. To live from within is to drop out of society in a sense... you might still be in it literally, but you no longer care about how it judges you a success or a failure, etc. It's a much quieter, simpler life. For most people however, it would require a psychological death to access... to most, letting go of people's approval is so terrifying they don't even conceive of it.

This is a thoughtful response. And I am well aware of the distinction between my inner life and my outer life, but what I have slowly learnt to do is to share my inner life in the outer world.

I find this to be enlivening, brings me into contact with those around me, and interestingly it is often humorous.

So for the introvert there is no need to drop out of society, but what is important is to learn to progressively relax into more and more social situations. I great help to me was the book Relief Without Drugs by Ainslie Mears. It is not about legal or illegal drugs but teaches a technique of physical and mental relaxation into more and more social situations.

Introverts have a lot to offer society but to do this it is very important to learn progressive relaxation.

 

[Mole]

"I shall never forget that night of December," writes Jouffroy, "in which the veil that concealed from me my own incredulity was torn. I hear again my steps in that narrow naked chamber where long after the hour of sleep had come I had the habit of walking up and down. I see again that moon, half-veiled by clouds, which now and again illuminated the frigid window-panes. The hours of the night flowed on and I did not note their passage. Anxiously I followed my thoughts, as from layer to layer they descended towards the foundation of my consciousness, and, scattering one by one all the illusions which until then had screened its windings from my view, made them every moment more clearly visible.

Vainly I clung to these last beliefs as a shipwrecked sailor clings to the fragments of his vessel; vainly, frightened at the unknown void in which I was about to float, I turned with them towards my childhood, my family, my country, all that was dear and sacred to me: the inflexible current of my thought was too strong, -- parents, family, memory, beliefs, it forced me to let go of everything. The investigation went on more obstinate and more severe as it drew near its term, and did not stop until the end was reached. I knew then that in the depth of my mind nothing was left that stood erect.

This moment was a frightful one; and when towards morning I threw myself exhausted on my bed, I seemed to feel my earlier life, so smiling and so full, go out like a fire, and before me another life opened, sombre and unpeopled, where in future I must live alone, alone with my fatal thought which had exiled me thither, and which I was tempted to curse. The days which followed this discovery were the saddest of my life."

I like to imagine you Evee walking through the woods contemplating your thoughts. And how I would like you to share your contemplation with us. Perhaps you could take a small voice recorder with you and speak your contemplation as it occurs.

The important step is the first step but you would be following in the footsteps of another contemplative, Thomas Merton, who shared his contemplation with us and we loved him for it.

 

[JjJot]

This thread makes me think of a great quote I heard on TV the other night. Authentic quote, not from a script:

"If you try to please everybody, you will end up pleasing no one."

This did me in. It's a pretty simple way of realizing that pleasing people isn't always the best route.

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

This thread makes me think of a great quote I heard on TV the other night. Authentic quote, not from a script:

"If you try to please everybody, you will end up pleasing no one."

This did me in. It's a pretty simple way of realizing that pleasing people isn't always the best route.

There's a lot of truth in that. You can work yourself to death trying to please someone that will never be happy or care about you. I can say from my experience on a Christian forum (and in life in general), no matter what I did to please some people or how perfect I was, there were those that especially didn't like me for that very reason. Some won't look beyond superficial things to find a common ground; they just want you beneath them.

When people treat you poorly, try not to take it personally. I can see it as a compliment and move on.

 

[Totenkindly]

There's a lot of truth in that. You can work yourself to death trying to please someone that will never be happy or care about you. I can say from my experience on a Christian forum (and in life in general), no matter what I did to please some people or how perfect I was, there were those that especially didn't like me for that very reason. Some won't look beyond superficial things to find a common ground; they just want you beneath them.

yes, I've had that experience and had to learn that same lesson. It can happen in any community of any sort, but I think those groups with more stringent rulesets / a reason to constrain behavior or adhere to a certain image encourage that mentality of criticism. Sometimes people can be operating in that capacity too not out of helpful motives but because it reassures them personally in some way.

At some point it's like you said, you just realize that you're investing a lot of energy to maintain an image you can't maintain and maybe don't even need to. Also, those kinds of people typically will never be happy with your efforts. And ultimately you might not even have a real relationship with them; real people usually have warts and we learn to accept and value each other even if we're not perfect.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

At some point it's like you said, you just realize that you're investing a lot of energy to maintain an image you can't maintain and maybe don't even need to. Also, those kinds of people typically will never be happy with your efforts. And ultimately you might not even have a real relationship with them; real people usually have warts and we learn to accept and value each other even if we're not perfect.

Weirdly enough, I've had the same experience among left-wing groups. It doesn't necessarily have to be religious, any belief system can be that way.

I think I'm pretty good at recognizing that mentality when I see it. If multiple people are particularly insistent on you changing your opinion on an extremely small difference, and kind of won't leave you alone about it, that's evidence that this kind of dynamic is at play. If nobody can explain exactly what it is that you're doing wrong, but you're still doing something wrong anyway, that's probably means that there is some kind of unhealthy group dynamic at play. If you keep on trying to meet expectations, and they keep on changing them on you, while never doing what they promised you they would do, that's a hostile environment.

 

[Avocado]

Of course I am partisan.

I love the true self because it is alive, and I hate the false self because it is phoney and a dead thing.

I love the true self because it is independent, and I hate the false self because it is dependent on how it is seen.

I love the true self because it dances, and I hate the false self because it is pedestrian.

I love the true self because it is courageous, and I hate the false self because it is cowardly.

I love the true self because it is imaginative, and I hate the false self because conformist.

The false self loves social control while the true self loves liberation.

Sounds like a watered-down essay from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

 

[Evastover]

Blarghf, so much purple