The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

[skylights]

As for your description, Starry, that's how I've always felt about e7s (and e3s, in a similar, albeit somewhat different way): under the positivity on the surface lies what likely either is or has a very good chance of turning into a train wreck, due to unwillingness to realistically/objectively assess what is going on in their lives. "Oh, yeah, snorting this line and having sex with this stranger who I'm pretending is my super close friend but who I really don't know jackshit about is EXACTLY what will make my life PERFECT right now *brushes under the rug the fact that if he/she had to spend the next hour alone in a room they would probably drive themselves up the fucking walls trying to not think about everything that's going wrong in their life that they're actually CONSTANTLY trying to not think about/avoid, and thus never actually effectively dealing with/resolving* *snnnnnnnnnort* *awwww* *where were we?*"

Yeah... I have a 7w6 sx/so friend who once messaged me in a panic because she brought a 33-year-old man she'd randomly danced with at a bar back to her dorm room, smoked and drank extensively with him, and then he was making suggestive comments including one about raping her... and she's kind of on the crazy end of the spectrum in general, but that was a particularly e7 hedonism-fueled situation.

I certainly get your point, but as an 18 year old in the prime of his life, I'd much rather have e7 problems than e6. I see the value in being an e6 troubleshooter when you're in your 30s or 40s, but being an e6 is a teenager or young adult is an absolute waste of youth. You should be happy go-lucky, whimsical, euphoric and impulsive at 18 years old, that's the point of youth. You have lots of fun, f-ck up a bunch of times, and move forward. As a young 6, you're basically behaving like an old woman and depriving yourself of any worthwhile experiences.

I feel this. But, there's also still PLENTY of time. Most of my wild and crazy abandon happened in my sophomore and junior years of college. I regret some of it, and I'm very glad for some of it, as it goes with wild and crazy. And it does get better with time. I like being an e6 20-something. I like being stable and I like that I like my stability! I still have grand e7 plans to travel the world and all. It's not like you have to be boring just because you're an e6!

3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win. Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads.

You are really serious about being down on 6s!

Again, e3s might look great from the outside, but they aren't satisfying themselves on the inside. When they integrate to 6, they often have to shift gears and move in a different direction because they have been living an external dream instead of their own. e3 NFs in particular may have a rough time because of the tension between 3 gloss and NF genuineness. It's like how many envy rich people but studies show that happiness doesn't change once you hit around 70,000 a year. Success only creates happiness to a certain extent.

When 6s integrate to 9, they're still fundamentally practical, resourceful, security-oriented 6s. It's just imbued with the 9 sense of serenity, instead of volatile overreaction. A serene 6 would be more like a wise ruler than a bizarre hippie, I think. I feel like when I have my moments of growth it's like I know shit might be coming but I also trust that everything will turn out fine.

Listen, you are 18. Some of what you are feeling is just about being 18, not about being any enneagram type in particular. (At least to my 'old' ears.) Some of your peers who look like they've got it "easiest" on the surface of living, consider that perhaps they don't ... be careful how you make those comparative judgements, is all I'm saying. It can be a huge blind spot.

I can think of pros and cons to each enneagram type, and that's how these things go.

Naranjo states that the types on the "bottom" of the enneagram (e.g. 4 and 5) suffer the most, and the ones on the "top" suffer the least.

This is so irritating. No wonder 9s trick themselves into believing they have no problems since no one actually believes they matter.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the types on the bottom are more acutely aware of their suffering? I don't really think anyone suffers more or less, or that it's even possible to measure or compare. But I do think it would be right to say that 4s with their difference, 5s with their isolation, and 6s with their anxiety tend to be very focused on their perceived problems. That does not necessarily mean we actually experience more suffering, but probably that we are more aware of the how, when, where, and why of it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Then you have 6 on the opposite end of the spectrum keeping you from stepping outside in the morning.

Did you not see the part where I said stop bitching and sack up?

Honestly, what you're talking about has nothing to do with being an enneagram 6.

It has to do with being unhealthy mentally, psychologically, spiritually.

You said it yourself: when you have a positive mentality, you are God.

Well, seems to me like what you have to do is learn to cultivate a positive mentality.

3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win. Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads. If an unhealthy 3 is a prime Michael Jordan (who was a douchebag), then it can't be that bad. Certain types of unhealthy are much more respected than others, IMO.

I think you have way too big a boner for threes.

From my perspective, threes were always douchebags who didn't know anything about themselves, or what they really wanted.

They did everything for other people. And not in some altruistic sense, but in the sense that they had essentially no sense of self, and, as such, making others impressed by their external accomplishments was the only thing they really knew.

But, just like your view of sixes is tainted, and nothing more than a narrow focus on *unhealthy* sixes, so is that view of threes.

Our level of health is much more relevant/important to our lives than *which* enneagram type we are.

e3 and e6 relationship summed up:

I don't get why you think that's such a good summary - I don't think it is.

And, ironically, irl, Jon Hamm is probably an e6.

 

[Glycerine]

Then you have 6 on the opposite end of the spectrum keeping you from stepping outside in the morning.

3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win. Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads. If an unhealthy 3 is a prime Michael Jordan (who was a douchebag), then it can't be that bad. Certain types of unhealthy are much more respected than others, IMO.]

That's debatable.

They can be quite efficient but not necessarily pragmatic and realistic. The positive outlook can easily trump it sometimes. The 3s I know can tend to exaggerate things in relation to reality and become a bit delusional. Once the 6 and 5 get control over the anxiety and paranoia, I think they tend to be the most "realistic" types. Unhealthy 3s can come off as highly self-centered, vain, and narcissistic. That's probably on par with the unhealthy 6's paranoia and neuroticism in terms of appeal (some might consider it worse).

This thread has the "my type is so hard and the grass is greener on the other side" tinge to it.

9's have the whole lethargy, "let's fall into false contentment and push everything under the freaking rug" thing going on. That shit is not easy to deal with. I can't see how that's "easy". At least, the 6's anxiety will push them to do thing when it gets bad enough.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This thread has the "my type is so hard and the grass is greener on the other side" tinge to it.

Yes, I agree.

I was thinking of this in relation to this thread:

 

[011235813]

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the types on the bottom are more acutely aware of their suffering? I don't really think anyone suffers more or less, or that it's even possible to measure or compare. But I do think it would be right to say that 4s with their difference, 5s with their isolation, and 6s with their anxiety tend to be very focused on their perceived problems. That does not necessarily mean we actually experience more suffering, but probably that we are more aware of the how, when, where, and why of it.

Yes, this is a MUCH better way of phrasing it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Yes, this is a MUCH better way of phrasing it.

Flabby relativism.

Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

***

That being said, I think there can actually be benefits to that greater level of suffering.

I think if the struggle is that much greater to get to health, then the result is likely that much greater too.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and what you overcome determines who you become.

 

[skylights]

Flabby relativism.

Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

Flabby objectivism. One could argue that those types are healthier for realizing they'd benefit from therapy, even if the therapists are sick of them. Just because people aren't in therapy or have gotten out of therapy faster doesn't mean their mindsets are healthy.

But yeah, given the choice, I'd rather be able to say I've fought and overcome than never had to try. And there are fringe benefits...

 

[011235813]

Flabby relativism.

Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

***

No idea what you're on about here. I'm bad at guessing games, just tell me what you mean already.

 

[Stansmith]

Again, e3s might look great from the outside, but they aren't satisfying themselves on the inside. When they integrate to 6, they often have to shift gears and move in a different direction because they have been living an external dream instead of their own. e3 NFs in particular may have a rough time because of the tension between 3 gloss and NF genuineness. It's like how many envy rich people but studies show that happiness doesn't change once you hit around 70,000 a year. Success only creates happiness to a certain extent.

When 6s integrate to 9, they're still fundamentally practical, resourceful, security-oriented 6s. It's just imbued with the 9 sense of serenity, instead of volatile overreaction. A serene 6 would be more like a wise ruler than a bizarre hippie, I think. I feel like when I have my moments of growth it's like I know shit might be coming but I also trust that everything will turn out fine.

When I feel like I've reached that point of serenity, my life feels very boring, and depressingly normal. Like my whole life is meant to be like a boring lifetime movie or an episode of King of the Hill. There's nothing to worry about, there's no grand narrative, you aren't special, you just are. Admittedly there's something very addictive about feeling alienated and having a chip on your shoulder.

 

[Zarathustra]

Flabby objectivism.

No such thing.

There's overly rigid, or stick-up-the-ass, or dogmatic objectivism, but flabby objectivism just doesn't fit.

That's like saying something was a wet dry.

One could argue that those types are healthier for realizing they'd benefit from therapy, even if the therapists are sick of them.

Yes, one cold argue many things.

But that doesn't make them right.

Just because people aren't in therapy or have gotten out of therapy faster mean their mindsets are healthy.

I think you left out a "doesn't".

I'll take that as a sign of the quality of your argument.

The fact that therapists say that they're sick of seeing so many 4s and 5s, that they rarely if ever get better, and that they're giant frickin pains in the ass, is just one, but one pretty significant, piece of evidence that 4s and 5s, in some sense, have it the hardest (and I think 6s kinda belong in there too). There are others. Some have been mentioned in this thread. Others have not. You don't necessarily have to believe it, but to not consider where that evidence points and consider it a realistic possibility, and instead just level the field and say all is the same, is a flabbily relativistic move, and comes from excessive preference for Fi over Te (which is not to say it couldn't be true, but, as a method, it is not following the evidence very keenly, and is rather flabbily and conveniently throwing around the relativism stick).

[MENTION=13147]senza tema[/MENTION]: see above

But yeah, given the choice, I'd rather be able to say I've fought and overcome than never had to try.

Yeah, there's something about the overcoming that is valuable.

Just being awesome and healthy would be pretty sweet, tho.

But, in reality, as human beings, I don't know whether just always having been healthy, and always being healthy from then on, is that possible. I think it's actually part of Jung's idea of enantiodromia (which can be traced back to Heraclitus and countless other systems of thought) that, in such a circumstance, the presence of that excessive health will actually tend to lead to the formation of its opposite.

 

[011235813]

When I feel like I've reached that point of serenity, my life feels very boring, and depressingly normal. Like my whole life is meant to be like a boring lifetime movie. There's something very addictive about feeling alienated and having a chip on your shoulder.

This has nothing to do with integration or health. This is more a matter of not being physically, mentally or emotionally active.

Find some fun things to do.

 

[Glycerine]

Flabby relativism.

Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

***

I am sure it was 4s and 5s with 6s not far behind.

Therapists try to normalize the crap out of things but 4s identify with feeling different/alienated so....

5s intellectualize most things and are mostly private so the lack of action and trying to get information out of them would frustrate the therapist.

6s tend to be anxious and skeptical about most things esp. with authority so building a safe, trusting rapport (if at all) would take awhile.

All of these types would endlessly question the therapist in his/her ability, knowledge, and competence until a good rapport was established (and even then, they would still keep the therapist on alert).

 

[011235813]

My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.

 

[Zarathustra]

I am sure it was 4s and 5s with 6s not far behind.

Therapists try to normalize the crap out of things but 4s identify with feeling different/alienated so....

5s intellectualize most things and are mostly private so the lack of action and trying to get information out of them would frustrate the therapist.

6s tend to be anxious and skeptical about most things esp. with authority so building a safe, trusting rapport (if at all) would take awhile.

All of these types would endlessly question the therapist in his/her ability, knowledge, and competence until a good rapport is established (and even then, they would still keep the therapist on alert).

Agreed.

Very good analysis.

And nice avatar, btw.

 

[Zarathustra]

My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.

Oy.

That would be annoying.

I would want to slap you.

 

[011235813]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

OK, there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. Yeah, I agree that in general, 4s might tend to magnify suffering as facets of their identity while 9s tend to minimize it because that's just what we do with unpleasant things. I was referring more to the fact that I don't feel my problems are worth anyone's consideration precisely because most people tend to emphasize that theirs are more pressing.

That kind of overall message (oh you guys suffer less) just reinforces 9s' tendencies not to engage with their issues, and that's kinda crappy. And then, other people start complaining about it when they've run out of personal issues to complain about.

 

[skylights]

Fine, you can have your point. Stick-up-the-ass it is.

4s and 5s, in some sense, have it the hardest (and I think 6s kinda belong in there too). There are others. Some have been mentioned in this thread. Others have not. You don't necessarily have to believe it, but to not consider where that evidence points and consider it a realistic possibility, and instead just level the field and say all is the same, is a flabbily relativistic move, and comes from excessive preference for Fi over Te (which is not to say it couldn't be true, but, as a method, it is not following the evidence very keenly, and is rather flabbily and conveniently throwing around the relativism stick).

Well, okay, in some sense I understand what you're saying. It's like saying that the quality of a slave's life and a billionaire's life must be the same because of relativism, whereas most people would agree that it is objectively true that being a billionaire is preferable.

At the same time, I think (and I think you think, too) OP's problem here is really not one of having been born into a particularly unfortunate enneatype. I think it is mostly a problem of attitude and perspective, and my argument stands even if you quoted it before I got a chance to edit in my "doesn't" that the majority of 4, 5, and 6's problems occur due to being particularly focused on the "negatives" in life. 4, 5, and 6 all share a particular awareness of their deficiencies. And in this case, OP is identifying his type as making him insecure, which is probably true, but also for a handful of other qualities that don't necessarily have much to do with enneatype.

I do think that certain types would tend to struggle more, but those would also include sx/sp, so/sp, 8w7s, 6w5s, and 1s. Regardless, overall, I think that a person's attitude and perspective can play a bigger role in determining happiness than type, just as attitude and perspective can trump environmental conditions.

I don't think any type is a prison sentence for misery, or boringness, or any other attribute.

But, in reality, as human beings, I don't know whether just always having been healthy, and always being healthy from then on, is that possible. I think it's actually part of Jung's idea of enantiodromia (which can be traced back to Heraclitus and countless other systems of thought) that, in such a circumstance, the presence of that excessive health will actually tend to lead to the formation of its opposite.

Neat, I hadn't heard that term before. It makes a lot of sense. I would tend to agree that you can't just always be healthy... though it makes me wonder about people who tend to use all the enneagram strategies fairly equally. Given that you have 9 enneagram directions on a "horizontal" plane, and then 2 health directions on a vertical plane (healthy and unhealthy), it would stand to reason that there are certain strategies for gaining health applicable to all enneatypes - in other words that one can work on their health regardless of their enneatype, and there is plasticity beyond type.

The rigidity of the "I am _ so I must be _" is what concerns me... perhaps magical NeFi thinking, but I like to believe it can be overthrown.


Aside - why people I know would be a pain in the ass in therapy:

ISTP 9w8 - Would not take it seriously. Would grunt one-word answers, or give blunt, obscene answers.
ESFJ 2w1 - Would try to help with the therapist's problems.
INTP 6w5 - Would be angry about being in therapy. Would make up things to get it over with quickly.
ENFJ 3w4 - Would carefully construct mini-scenarios to appear that she is genuinely doing therapy but would hide the real issues.
ESFP 7w6 - Would come to sessions, talk through problems, then leave and make the exact same mistakes over and over.
ISFJ 9w1 - Would try to have one decently good session to fulfill his duty then never come back.
INFP 4w5 - Let's face it... pity party.
ENFP 9w1 - Would dance around talking about herself the whole time.
ENFP 6w7 (self) - Would psychoanalyze therapist during sessions.

 

[Zarathustra]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

OK, there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. Yeah, I agree that in general, 4s might tend to magnify suffering as facets of their identity while 9s tend to minimize it because that's just what we do with unpleasant things. I was referring more to the fact that I don't feel my problems are worth anyone's consideration precisely because most people tend to emphasize that theirs are more pressing.

That kind of overall message (oh you guys suffer less) just reinforces 9s' tendencies not to engage with their issues, and that's kinda crappy. And then, other people start complaining about it when they've run out of personal issues to complain about.

And I'm not saying 9s don't have problems, and don't sweep them under the rug.

I just think that 4s, 5s, and 6s, by their constitution, tend to have more problematic mental health issues than other types.

A completely unrelated piece of evidence to what I said before that basically points to the same thing: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtTina.asp#.Uf1Ql9Ip-So

 

[Glycerine]

My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.

haha, even though I am 3w4, I engage the 5w6 side of my tritype a lot. I would often give my therapist long, vague rationales on how things were connected and why I did things. He would give me advice but I would often shoot it down because I already thought extensively of most of the advice. Or I would just "emotionally disengage". Eventually, he said, "You know why you have problems and how to solve them.... it's a just a matter of when". I probably drove him nuts so I can't imagine what a core 4, 5, 6 is typically like in therapy. lol

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

While I don't agree that removing the anxiety is the best course of action, I think that in this instance integrating to nine is what would allow us to finally focus, not remove, the anxiety; I would even postulate that it would seem poorly reasoned to assume that integrating to nine would erase worry. Nines themselves deny it, but as the six is hardly capable of repressing it, the correct integration is to focus on a singular issue, to determine whether the problem is actually intrinsic or extrinsic, and then gain the determination and skill to uproot the origin. The integration to nine isn't a shield or sword, sixes have plenty of those, it is the dart that hits precisely the point necessary to incapacitate the argument of the antagonizations.