[ENTP] The ENTP shrug?

[sculpting]

The ENTP shrug

So I'm faced with a dilemma with one of my entps. 9/9 of course as why wouldn't he be the most problematic. I would like advice or suggestions on how to help 9/9 modify his responses to be more productive in a team environment.

Funny, theoretically I should not waste time trying to fix a very broken person-however now it just isn't me. We now have team at work. He is our "project". Poor 9/9. Our team consists of his ESTP boss, his ESTP friend/lover, my ENTP best friend, and me. Why bother? We need to use him for his ideas. They really are that good.

So 9/9 gets a steady stream of negative feedback from my way. It seems he can modify his behavior, at least on the surface, to be more close to a norm and improvements have been noted from across the company.

The latest issue we are having is with something I see a lot of entps do. I call it the ENTP shrug. His version is more marked than most to the point of being a real problem.

Infjs have a doorslam. I assume-please correct-that this is when you really, really burn your bridges with an infj. To borrow proteo's comparison, Fe has many circles, many levels of intimacy. Concentric circles where some can come in very deep and others are restricted to surface layers.

An infj doorslam maybe is when you are permanently excluded from all of those layers. You are outside of the circle?

So my entps do this too. If you push too hard or dig too much, or if they feel too out of control, they will temporarily push you out a bit. You get ejected backwards through several layers of Fe rings and held at arm's length, until they feel more in control of the situation. An enfp lashes out with Te to control the environment. My entps seem to retract like snails or turtles until the environment stabilizes a bit. The person external gets shunned a bit, excluded. Who knows-maybe they need time to think? Only another entp can really understand the inner workings. I can only observe from outside and guess.

So pretty normal stuff-after an hour or even a day my entps will re-engage, reply, decide what to do. (Enfps notice this as we are over dependent upon external affirmation)

Problematically 9/9 diverges here. He just never replies, never responds. If called, he says he is busy, but I call BS on this one as he will respond very quickly given the right topic. He sits waiting, observing, but not interacting? Like he is afraid to say anything?

Oddly my best friend entp says when Fe kicks in she feels torn-she wants to be terse, bitter and cruel, but instead gets calmer and calmer and calmer, nicer and nicer on the surface. All the turmoil can't surface externally-mentally it is like Fe just will not let it out?? Her words not mine, so please forgive if it is inaccurate.

It does make me wonder if he gets to the point where he doesn't reply as he feels-I dunno-toungue tied??? Does fe and ti really fight that much??? I have no idea what I am talking about so again please don't take offense.

My entp also mentioned maybe he has problems processing the frustration, so withdraws to do this in his own time frame.

This causes issues as if affronted, even slightly, he will not respond to email, will not reply to calls, will not engage in discussion. However he is a research scientist and we very much need his insight and his contribution. But he gets caught up shunning the shit out of people.


He does this a little to me, but far, far more to others.
So questions:

1) Does this sound familiar?
2) how can we get him to relax the defensive barrier once built?
3) How can we avoid provoking the defensive response?
4) Can he be taught alternate ways of responding, that are less destructive to teamwork and communication?


Much thanks for any advice you can offer.

(As a side note-9/9 just sent an emailing just to say thank you to someone who mailed a package for him. This-this is like some sort of miracle...)

 

[HaHa]

1) Yes this sounds familiar.
2) In a work environment, the best idea is to back off. I very much understand the tounge tying idea. When I'm uncomfortable in a situation, I tend to stop instinctively trusting my intuition and use my far less developed feeling. This leads to me coming off as very bland, as I attempt to disappear into the background until I feel more comfortable.
3) Don't push at him on a personal level. On an intellectual level absolutely, the only thing that could possibly provoke the response intellectually is if he feels that his ideas are being ignored.
4) No, we don't respond to instruction. And we REALLY hate being told what to do without a self-evident reason (to us through our intuition).

 

[thisGuy]

...she feels torn-she wants to be terse, bitter and cruel, but instead gets calmer and calmer and calmer, nicer and nicer on the surface...

thats the only thing rang a yes bell in my head...i just skimmed thru though...


ill reread it tomorrow...i need to go study

 

[Tiltyred]

Oh, boy, do I know this routine! My suggestions after working closely with one for 10 years:
Keep your questions to the point.
Get personal affirmation elsewhere. He's just not interested and it's too demanding.
You will get more personal affirmation if you mix up funny/entertaining with the work. But if you can't be funny, be smart and to the point.
If you can't be funny, smart, and to the point, show cleavage. There has to be some entertainment in it for him.
Yes, if he knows you will ignore him anyway, he will stop talking -- but ditto if your questions constantly reflect some personal problem like anxiety disorder or just wanting attention.
Don't even try to tell them what to do. It doesn't work, even if you are trying to tell them what to do because if they don't do it, they will suffer consequences. They would rather suffer the consequences than feel like they are being bossed.

 

[HaHa]

Oh, boy, do I know this routine! My suggestions after working closely with one for 10 years:
Keep your questions to the point.
Get personal affirmation elsewhere. He's just not interested and it's too demanding.
You will get more personal affirmation if you mix up funny/entertaining with the work. But if you can't be funny, be smart and to the point.
If you can't be funny, smart, and to the point, show cleavage. There has to be some entertainment in it for him.
Yes, if he knows you will ignore him anyway, he will stop talking -- but ditto if your questions constantly reflect some personal problem like anxiety disorder or just wanting attention.
Don't even try to tell them what to do. It doesn't work, even if you are trying to tell them what to do because if they don't do it, they will suffer consequences. They would rather suffer the consequences than feel like they are being bossed.

Excellent advice. I INFJs...

 

[Fiver]

Maybe he's cool and everyone else is broken.

Maybe he really is the devil.

Maybe someone at work just bugs the ever living crap out of him.

*Shrug*

 

[Valuable_Money]

I have on one occassion gone through a whole week sitting alone and brooding about how much I hate my freinds(one in particlar) and how they never appreciate me bla bla bla emo emo emo GRRRRRRR!!!!! I convinced myself that I was never going to speak to them again.

Then after about a week of this I run into one of them at one of our usual haunts and I end up helping him instal a hottub at his sisters house. This leads to going to a barbeque at another freinds house, then us all going to see a softball game(our crappy local leauge, its mostly just an excuse for everyone in town to get drunk).

I honostly beared no more of those harsh feelings towards him or any of my other freinds and they never even knew I had them.


As far as Fe and Ti fighting, yes. Ive talked myself out of so many impassioned rants where I told people "How I really feel". Quite personaly I like it that way, I hate it when people cant stop to think of the implications of their own actions, or they refuse to try and understand why people do stuff that pisses them off.

EDIT: Now that I think about its not like they fight at all, its more like a filter. All of Fe has to go through Ti, there Ti lets all the good "socialy acceptable" feelings pass through and it stops all of the bad ones(the ones that get you in jail and cause your girlfreind to leave you).

 

[SerengetiBetty]

He's just not that into you - or the topic.


1) Yep, sounds very familiar
2) I don't think ENTPs hold grudges that long - at least I don't. So perhaps this is less of a matter of him being defensive and more about him not being interested. It sounds like he's given his ideas but really if he doesn't see the value of the general topic, I doubt he's going to be that committed to continuing to give ideas.
3) Maybe by stop assuming he's being defensive
4) Hahahaha. Good luck with that.

 

[Typology]

What is 9/9? I read that entire thing and realized after 'reading' it that I had actually been focusing on that the entire time. Hmm.

 

[tinkerbell]

this really sounds like you are treating this ENTP like a performing monkey... maybe if you want to avoid the shrugs you might need to get out his face and let him work in the way that allows him to make the very valued contribution he seems to be making.

Lis

 

[sculpting]

3) Don't push at him on a personal level. On an intellectual level absolutely, the only thing that could possibly provoke the response intellectually is if he feels that his ideas are being ignored.

I think this may be a factor that has made him very difficult in the past. My job is now to push his ideas internally and make sure they do get implemented as products. My career depends on getting him to communicate.

I have on one occassion gone through a whole week sitting alone and brooding about how much I hate my freinds(one in particlar) and how they never appreciate me bla bla bla emo emo emo GRRRRRRR!!!!! I convinced myself that I was never going to speak to them again.

Then after about a week of this I run into one of them at one of our usual haunts and I end up helping him instal a hottub at his sisters house. This leads to going to a barbeque at another freinds house, then us all going to see a softball game(our crappy local leauge, its mostly just an excuse for everyone in town to get drunk).

This makes me think one tactic might be to put him face to face with the person he has put on ignore within a couple of days. Give him a few days to cool off, but then force the interaction. Reconnect physically over drinks after work, perhaps.

He's just not that into you - or the topic.


1) Yep, sounds very familiar
2) I don't think ENTPs hold grudges that long - at least I don't. So perhaps this is less of a matter of him being defensive and more about him not being interested. It sounds like he's given his ideas but really if he doesn't see the value of the general topic, I doubt he's going to be that committed to continuing to give ideas.
3) Maybe by stop assuming he's being defensive
4) Hahahaha. Good luck with that.

Thanks, these are awesome points-especially the defensive assumption on my part. Very good point. As for 2-could this be he feels like he spoke his contribution, nobody listened, so screw us, he will not waste time repeating himself?

What is 9/9? I read that entire thing and realized after 'reading' it that I had actually been focusing on that the entire time. Hmm.

9/9 is becuase he has all 9 charecteristics of narcissitic personality disorder. Although as I said he has shown substantial improvements over the last few months-as his ideas are being taken more seriously I think???

this really sounds like you are treating this ENTP like a performing monkey... maybe if you want to avoid the shrugs you might need to get out his face and let him work in the way that allows him to make the very valued contribution he seems to be making.

Lis

problematically, he is contributing nothing. I cannot implement his brilliant ideas if every person he works with despises him. Funny, people shy away from interacting with him, rather than get in his face. He is shunned due to his behavior.

Performing monkey, ouch, but true on some level. I am Fi, which means I seek the least amount of unhappiness for those people in my immediate enviornment. For a company, this means what it takes to produce a good quality product, maximize customer happiness, maximize revenue, and do everything you can not to sacrifice your coworker's happiness in the process. Happy, agreeable teams that have bought in to a plan are much more productive and effecient than unhappy miserable people.

So, by joining a company, by joining a team, you sign away a wee bit of freedom. By becoming part of my team, it means you automatically become subject to scutiny. What is it that you need-I will provide it, you want-I will make sure you get it, you need to change-I will ask this of you, to maximize productivity and subsequent hapiness of the whole team. Granted I know ENTPs are very happy in independent careers likely due to this.

At any rate, as I said, my career depends on him to a certain extent.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

So my entps do this too. If you push too hard or dig too much, or if they feel too out of control, they will temporarily push you out a bit. You get ejected backwards through several layers of Fe rings and held at arm's length, until they feel more in control of the situation. An enfp lashes out with Te to control the environment. My entps seem to retract like snails or turtles until the environment stabilizes a bit. The person external gets shunned a bit, excluded. Who knows-maybe they need time to think? Only another entp can really understand the inner workings. I can only observe from outside and guess.

I do this. I'm not sure what makes me want to do it ... an observer would be better at commenting on this.

But one thing that always does it is when someone comes out of nowhere with huge drama for me to deal with. I will roll up my sleeves, solve the problem, make sure everything is okay, and then push that person far far far away.

The only conscious thought I have is: I don't want to see them.

Then later I'll think: I miss them.

And I'll pull them back in to the level I'm comfortable with (depending on how big the drama was, this could be much further than where they began or it could be the same place).

Problematically 9/9 diverges here. He just never replies, never responds. If called, he says he is busy, but I call BS on this one as he will respond very quickly given the right topic. He sits waiting, observing, but not interacting? Like he is afraid to say anything?

If he's an ENTP, I really doubt he's afraid of responding in a work situation. That Fe/Ti battle is about personal relationships for me ... not work. I think this guy is just uninterested.

EDIT: If he's not uninterested, he's processing everything. Listening and gradually coming to a discovery.

Oddly my best friend entp says when Fe kicks in she feels torn-she wants to be terse, bitter and cruel, but instead gets calmer and calmer and calmer, nicer and nicer on the surface. All the turmoil can't surface externally-mentally it is like Fe just will not let it out?? ...


Does fe and ti really fight that much???

Yes, but again this is valid for relationships ... not work. Tiltyred offered some good, practical advice. That would probably be your best bet to solve the problem.

 

[Kalach]

Is he actually doing nothing whatsoever? Or is he hidden away inside his head coming up with something brilliant?


I base these questions on knowing nothing whatsoever of how ENTPs function.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

this really sounds like you are treating this ENTP like a performing monkey...

But isn't that what he is?

 

[jenocyde]

I push people away when I just don't want to deal with it. I'm not afraid of anything, but if I smell drama it physically looks like a huge mountain that I will have to scale with a 200 lb boulder on my back. I simply don't want to be bothered with it. I think about all the pieces in the downtime and break the mountain into a series of smaller climbs. But oftentimes, I forget to report back. Once it's settled in my head, I assume it's settled in everyone else's. And I am already bored with it and talking about it is the last thing I want to do. It's already done and decided and I want to move on.

But I think if you want him to act like a team member, you should treat him as one. I'm sure he can smell your "behavior modification" tactics from a mile away. It's insulting. Just tell him straight out that he's acting like a dick and no one wants to work with him. So he better come to work with a smile on his face, or else.

Or do what Tilty said: just get to the point or lighten up the atmosphere. But right now, it seems like the whole situation is too... heavy.

 

[tinkerbell]

But isn't that what he is?

Well actually I framed it that was to not provoke, what I reall wanted to say was she sounded pushy as hell and is getting in this guys face eventually he will bore of that and ripe her NF head off.

ENTPs like not NT need thinking space, many of them are over compensating Intps, so mental space/privacy. It can be well tedious to be on the receiving end of a group of people who aren't as talented as you are trying to dictate how you go about being talented... AKA que the bright spark at 2pm on tuesday afternoon.....

It bugs me, I've been on the receiving end of this, only to have my bosses boss send in a consultant who more or less told the so called Organ grinders they did't know squat.... Actually my most loathed organ grinder who did the most dictating was forever coming back to me several months later to say how right I was about the thing she was narked about in the first place... truly exhasting. I resigned that job.

Sadly we all have tiersom people we have to work with, maybe the ENTP isn't the issue here....

Lis

 

[EcK]

I push people away when I just don't want to deal with it. I'm not afraid of anything, but if I smell drama it physically looks like a huge mountain that I will have to scale with a 200 lb boulder on my back. I simply don't want to be bothered with it. I think about all the pieces in the downtime and break the mountain into a series of smaller climbs. But oftentimes, I forget to report back. Once it's settled in my head, I assume it's settled in everyone else's. And I am already bored with it and talking about it is the last thing I want to do. It's already done and decided and I want to move on.

But I think if you want him to act like a team member, you should treat him as one. I'm sure he can smell your "behavior modification" tactics from a mile away. It's insulting. Just tell him straight out that he's acting like a dick and no one wants to work with him. So he better come to work with a smile on his face, or else.

Or do what Tilty said: just get to the point or lighten up the atmosphere. But right now, it seems like the whole situation is too... heavy.

what she said, the whole emotional interpretation just doesn't fit at all. We don't 'keep people at arm's length, we just ignore what bothers us. It's good old 'blasé'ness.

IT's a bit like assuming that when somebody doesn't want to watch a movie it's because it's scary, when it's just boring.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Just tell him straight out that he's acting like a dick and no one wants to work with him. So he better come to work with a smile on his face, or else.

This would work on me because it would set the terms of involvement. If coming to work with a sunny disposition wasn't something I wanted to do, I'd leave. Otherwise, I'd make an effort to fix the problem.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

...maybe the ENTP isn't the issue here....

I was wondering about this too. What does this look like from the ENTP's perspective?

Because one issue I can have with extroverted feelers is that they often don't know when to back off. I'll say it directly and repeatedly, and it's like they don't hear me.

 

[jenocyde]

I was wondering about this too. What does this look like from the ENTP's perspective?

Because one issue I can have with extroverted feelers is that they often don't know when to back off. I'll say it directly and repeatedly, and it's like they don't hear me.

Fuck yes. I can't stress this enough. I say the same thing a million different ways a million different times, but it's only when I finally blow up and scream harsh obscenities that I'm finally heard - and then written off for being a crazy bitch. So it goes...

My advice: stop being pushy.