The dark side of modesty/tact.

[Tiltyred]

I have ended most of my relationships because of this. I am not comfortable in a relationship with someone that is incapable of understanding why I am as honest as I am. And I sure as heck won't fall to any less, not in something as serious to me as a relationship.

I'm still searching for that person that does appreciate this for this reason. And I'm also a very happy single person in that I do not feel the loss of a relationship. Simply because that is not the kind of relationship I want to be in in the first place.

Slightly unrelated. I do like sex, but I can go years without just fine as well, apparantly.

Delicious irony. I have wound up in the same situation, coming at it from the opposite direction.

 

[TopherRed]

So Tilty, if you ask me if your butt looks big in your pants and instead of answering the truth, I compliment your eyes and on how beautiful you are (and mean that)...do I win? Do I pass?

*quietly whispers* "The penatant man will pass...the penatant..." --Indiana Jones, QFHGrail

 

[redacted]

In terms of business I whole heartedly agree. But I can not bring myself to do this on a personal level. If I was to do this in a relationship. The relationship would be meaningless to me.

The thing is, there's not actually that big of a difference (at least in terms of structure) between business relationships and personal ones. Both are trades. In fact, you probably put more weight (as in, have more invested) in your personal friendships. So doing things that you know will be negatively received has a direct cost, at least in the context of that goal. Then again, you're saying there's also a cost to factoring in the emotional responses. So you have to weigh those things against each other, I guess. The only argument I'm trying to make is that the first cost I mentioned should definitely be factored into your analysis.

I do agree that I should probably focus on getting NT friends above others, since it's the only group of people in which there seem to be people appreciating how I am.

I disagree with this. I know plenty of non-NTs that are much much more blunt than I am, and some that are much less emotionally reactive.

Don't think of this as a type thing. Analyze relationships on a one to one basis...people have lots of things to offer. Coming up with a formula beforehand just means you cut off your ability to take advantage of opportunity.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Delicious irony. I have wound up in the same situation, coming at it from the opposite direction.

Out of curiosity, how would you justify your stance towards prefering someone more tactful then? When you full well know they're really just trying to have sex with you?

Sorry for putting it this blunt. But that is the thought I am getting from it. If I am missing something else, please fill me in.

Don't think of this as a type thing. Analyze relationships on a one to one basis...people have lots of things to offer. Coming up with a formula beforehand just means you cut off your ability to take advantage of opportunity.

Perhaps so, and I never passed interest before based on generalization either. And doubt I will never in the future. That too clashes with my sense of integrity. As I'd feel I'd be limiting to what I know, rather than wanting to step outside of the box in order to experience and learn more.

So, yeah, I wouldn't pass up an oppertunity if it presented itself. However, I do want to note that it's very likely to be a more common trait amongst fellow NT's. As an observation.

 

[TopherRed]

I think it's like I've been saying Fluff, it's not about honesty, it's about emotional respect.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I think it's like I've been saying Fluff, it's not about honesty, it's about emotional respect.

Hmm, I suppose I just don't understand that. And probably never will.

 

[redacted]

Basically, there's a tradeoff between bluntness and tact. Each relationship requires figuring out where in that continuum you're most benefited.

Clearly, going all the way to the blunt side will cause problems. For example, if you think your friend is ugly, going up to them and saying that to their face out of nowhere accomplishes nothing and cuts off trade options. And going all the way to the tact side is just as bad, because you end up getting walked all over.

I'm not making an argument for where to decide you fall on the spectrum for a given relationship. I'm just saying, not factoring it in at all is ludicrous.

 

[Tiltyred]

So Tilty, if you ask me if your butt looks big in your pants and instead of answering the truth, I compliment your eyes and on how beautiful you are (and mean that)...do I win? Do I pass?

"The penatant man will pass...the penatant...the pe..." --Indiana Jones, QFHGrail

You pass. Because by your avoidance of answering me directly, I grok that I either need different pants or to knock off the cookies for a couple of days, and am reassured that no matter the size of my butt, you admire other parts of me. I mark this down in my Book of Luv, and 1) the next time you make yourself vulnerable to me, I will be similarly merciful, and 2) it's possible I will do one of the things that you especially like, to let you know that I appreciate you.

Out of curiosity, how would you justify your stance towards prefering someone more tactful then? When you full well know they're really just trying to have sex with you?

Well, in an ideal world, I'm trying to have sex with them, too. Why shouldn't we both be happy? And I can't relax if I'm busy thinking you think my butt's too big.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Clearly, going all the way to the blunt side will cause problems. For example, if you think your friend is ugly, going up to them and saying that to their face out of nowhere accomplishes nothing and cuts off trade options. And going all the way to the tact side is just as bad, because you end up getting walked all over.

To me it isn't that clear. If the person understand and respects why I am bluntly honest. That in itself can be appreciated.

If someone is physically ugly, and it's not something they can do much about, I don't see a reason to mention it to them. If someone dresses bad however for example, I would be blunt and honest about it if they are important to me on a personal level. If not close to me, I probably don't care.

So using the relationship as a point of reference. You and the person that is most important to you. I find that blunt honesty is the best and only course of action. I wouldn't be in the relationship if I didn't want to, which should be enough to know that when I'm painfully blunt, it is not as a means to push them away from me. And that it is merely out of respect for the partner. If that can be appreciated and accepted, I'd be in the relationship of my dreams.

I use tact towards employees and customers on a daily bases. I'm pretty used to it now, but at first I felt really disrespectful towards them. They don't notice it. They like me. But I felt realy bad about it. It took several years of being in a leadership position for me to really get accustomed to using tact. I think because of my experience using tact. And the disposition I have towards it, may also be a big influencing factor for me as to my stance towards it.

If I was to sugarcoat something to my partner, she should be well upset, for I would not be respecting her.

 

[Grayscale]

Hmm, I suppose I just don't understand that. And probably never will.

there is no "honest" answer to the unavoidably subjective nature of human emotion, so how and what you say about these matters only reflects your emotions and a desire to be accurate to them, not a desire to be honest.

"does this make my butt look big?"

if you say "yes, it does", you are not being "honest" you are being accurate to your opinion of her ass, and this opinion is what hurts her feelings.

 

[redacted]

If someone is physically ugly, and it's not something they can do much about, I don't see a reason to mention it to them. If someone dresses bad however for example, I would be blunt and honest about it if they are important to me on a personal level. If not close to me, I probably don't care.

Well, there you go. You don't just say everything you think. You choose certain things to say. Things with potentially negative consequences and no positive ones are not said. Things with some pros and some cons tend to go towards the honesty side in general. No problem with that. Sounds like we agree. (Although, I personally tend to lean more towards the careful side.)

 

[Fluffywolf]

there is no "honest" answer to the unavoidably subjective nature of human emotion, so how and what you say about these matters only reflects your emotions and a desire to be accurate to them, not a desire to be honest.

"does this make my butt look big?"

if you say "yes, it does", you are not being "honest" you are being accurate to your opinion of her ass, and this opinion is what hurts her feelings.

I know full well honesty is subjective by nature. But that is no reason to be dishonest. In my book, it's always better to be as honest as possible, based on your own thoughts, feelings and experience.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Well, there you go. You don't just say everything you think. You choose certain things to say. Things with potentially negative consequences and no positive ones are not said. Things with some pros and some cons tend to go towards the honesty side in general. No problem with that. Sounds like we agree. (Although, I personally tend to lean more towards the careful side.)

Well yes, but if a partner asks something. I still don't see a reason to be dishonest about it. And generally saying nothing doesn't help much either, if you know what I mean.

Ultimatly, I could always voice how important the ordeal is to me (honestly), after having answered honestly. Which would probably soften the impact.

 

[Kangol]

This is what I gather from the OP:

"I know how to be tactful but I really don't want to be that way in a personal relationship."

Okay then, if that's working for you, hats off to you.

However, if the case of writing this thread is to point out that this method of dealing with relationships is not working out, then perhaps the reasons why directness is valued above tact in the relationship ought to be discussed. As Evan and others pointed out, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive as a means to interact.

If your goal is to tell your significant other every thing that pops into your head, then you're probably doing a good job. You may want to read the book The Guinea Pig Diaries, released recently from author AJ Jacobs, in which he conducts various social experiments. One of them was to do just that- unhindered, tactless dialogue.

However, if your goal, like most other people in a deep, intimate relationship, is to maintain that relationship because you love them and want them to love you, revisions in approach and perspective are advisable.

I'm wondering: What happens if you do find someone equally interested only in a tactless approach to relationships? I don't think it will be fun and games, and instead sounds like a likely case for domestic violence or divorce. There are inevitably times when two people in a relationship will not get along or understand each other, and it is in those times that tact and empathy will carry them through.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I'm wondering: What happens if you do find someone equally interested only in a tactless approach to relationships? I don't think it will be fun and games, and instead sounds like a likely case for domestic violence or divorce. There are inevitably times when two people in a relationship will not get along or understand each other, and it is in those times that tact and empathy will carry them through.

I'm not a violent person at all, I'm nearly unangre-able.
I'm also perfectly capable of fun and games while being direct. I do not need to be serious all the time either. But at moments that seriousness is required, I will be bluntly honest. It's not that I'm not playful. On the contrary.

But suppose that would be the effect of directness in a relationship for the sake of arguement. Then I will be happy with being single throughout my life. As relationships are not of my interest.

 

[Kangol]

I'm not a violent person at all, I'm nearly unangre-able.
I'm also perfectly capable of fun and games while being direct. I do not need to be serious all the time either. But at moments that seriousness is required, I will be bluntly honest. It's not that I'm not playful. On the contrary.

But suppose that would be the effect of directness in a relationship for the sake of arguement. Then I will be happy with being single throughout my life. As relationships are not of my interest.

I'm guessing that your playful nature helps to establish the beginnings of a relationship and sustain it, which is a good thing. If you are happy with it, I guess there's no real problem then.

I will agree that honesty and directness should be enforced in a relationship, and in fact I will often say very blunt, harsh things to my girlfriend. This is because I have been with her long enough to know what I can and cannot say to her, and when I do so it is either jokingly or in retaliation to something mean she says. If I overstep that boundary into being mean, I apologize, and will perhaps explain myself as to why I said it in an apologetic tone. This is because honesty and directness is important to me, but so is keeping her affection, because I love her.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Yeah, I kinda got fucked up with the 'love' subject in my first relationship. I see love a bit differently now. But that's a whole different story. (I don't see it as me being fucked up myself, but I imagine others do. And truthfully, the whole situation was fucked up.)

I understand where you're coming from though. I think I'm hanging on the apologizing bit myself. If I don't feel I need to apologize, I don't. Unless you count a more clearer explanation as an apology, which should work just as well, but seems to work like putting fire out with gasoline from my experience with most people.

 

[INTJ123]

well it's because the truth can hurt, so if I go around telling everyone I know more about something than them then it's only going to make them hate me.

So it all depends on the person, if they can handle the truth without hating the hurt.

 

[The Grand Chameleon]

I will agree that honesty and directness should be enforced in a relationship, and in fact I will often say very blunt, harsh things to my girlfriend. This is because I have been with her long enough to know what I can and cannot say to her, and when I do so it is either jokingly or in retaliation to something mean she says. If I overstep that boundary into being mean, I apologize, and will perhaps explain myself as to why I said it in an apologetic tone. This is because honesty and directness is important to me, but so is keeping her affection, because I love her.

So the tin man got his heart, eh?

 

[Halla74]

"Modesty is a flower that does not grow in every garden."

-Ralph Quinn (my brilliant friend and comrade)

***NOTE: As per Ralph, you can substitute any "Virtue" for "Modesty" above and nullify its existence with a puzzling amount of tact.

That is all.



-Halla