The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

“Know any good lawyers?”
“No, but I know Rudy Giuliani”

 

[Firebird 8118]

Biden trying to pull some Ford "heal the nation" pardon bullshit would not stand at all.

Sadly, I have to agree with you - we’re much too divided as it is, voting results aside. It feels like a “new” Civil War is brewing just beneath the surface...

 

[FemMecha]

Meh, I don't think he's going to jail. He's rich.

Epstein and Maxwell were rich. I think a lot of people are about to turn on Trump and will let him be the fall guy even for crimes they had involvement in as well.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think it's a "hope for the best, brace yourself for the worst" (and try to avoid investing in expectations for particular outcome in either direction) type thing, where Trump facing criminal charges is concerned.

 

[Stigmata]

I think it's a "hope for the best, brace yourself for the worst" (and try to avoid investing in expectations for particular outcome in either direction) type thing, where Trump facing criminal charges is concerned.

I just don't think that outlook is good enough this time around for us to settle on. Everytime we give corruption a free pass, it returns in greater numbers and is more egregious. If you let this go, the next Trump will be far worse.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Last night HCR's post said a mouthful, specifically about Trump's need to gaslight to hold power.

Ballot counting in the 2020 presidential election continues, although it sure looks like Democratic candidate Joe Biden and his running mate Kamala Harris are going to win.

What has stood out today is the degree to which Trump and his team have governed by creating their own reality. Now that that image is being challenged, they are flailing.

Knowing he would lose the popular vote, Trump intended to win by arguing that Democrats had “stolen” his victory. Before the election, he talked about the dangers of mail-in ballots, setting up the idea that they would somehow be fraudulent, although there is no evidence of that. He expected—correctly, as it turned out—that mail-in ballots would be heavily Democratic while Republicans would vote in person on Election Day. That set up a scenario in which the election results on November 3 would give an advantage to him, but as the hours wore on and the mail-in ballots got counted, the Democrats would gain ground. So he talked repeatedly of ending the count on the night of November 3, although ballot counting has always taken days.

He planned to challenge the counting of the mail-in ballots in the courts, all the while telling his supporters that Democrats were stealing his victory. If he could gin up enough chaos, he could buy time to throw the results into doubt and, perhaps, get the Supreme Court to enter the fight. There, he hoped for victory with the help of the three justices who owed him their seats.

He planned to subvert the election, staying in power thanks to his extraordinary ability to control the narrative, making people believe things that are not true.

The only thing that could stymie that narrative was overwhelming turnout from Democrats. To make that impossible, Trump’s team arranged to keep voters from the polls in places like Florida, and Texas, and enlisted Postmaster General Louis DeJoy to delay the mails so ballots would not be delivered in time to be counted.

But, in the end, their plans could not completely suppress those Americans fed up with the Trump administration. As I write tonight, Biden and Harris are winning the popular vote by more than 4 million votes, and the numbers are rising. If it weren’t for our antiquated Electoral College system, this election would already be over, decisively.

Instead, we are still waiting on the outcomes in Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, and Alaska.

The unraveling of Trump’s plan to claim victory has been mesmerizing.

Until Tuesday night, everything seemed to be going according to plan. In the evening, Trump won Florida by about 375,000 votes, a victory certainly helped by the disfranchisement of 1.5 million ex-felons, whose voting rights Floridians had voted overwhelmingly in 2018 to restore. Florida’s 29 electoral votes made it look like Trump was on track to win, opening up room for him to declare victory even though many of the states he would need to win for real were still counting. If he could claim victory early on, any later correction would look like the election was being “stolen.”

But before he could take a victory lap, the Fox News Channel called Arizona for Biden long before anyone else did. Arizona had been a Trump state in 2016, so this meant a flip and undercut Trump’s claim to a commanding lead. Trump was furious. He and his aides worked Twitter and the phones, trying unsuccessfully to get FNC to retract the call and, when that failed, to discredit it.

As Trump fumed, the Biden campaign was watching its candidate's numbers tick upward—again, as expected—and Biden gave a short statement Tuesday night saying the campaign felt good about where it was, and encouraging patience as election officials counted all ballots.

Trump then made a statement at 2:30 am Wednesday morning, claiming victory, demanding that officials stop counting mail-in ballots, and promising to take the election to the Supreme Court to decide. “This is a fraud on the American public,” he said. “This is an embarrassment to our country. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win the election.”

But key Republican leaders, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, noted that a number of Republican Senate candidates ran more strongly than Trump did, meaning they no longer need him. They have clearly decided that Trump is no longer useful to them, and they went before television cameras in the morning to contradict him. They said that all ballots should be counted.

Since then, the president has been flailing. His legal team has been filing lawsuits to challenge ballot counting, but the suits are frivolous and keep getting thrown out. They are designed not to win legal points, but rather to do what Trump has always done politically: create a narrative that makes his supporters believe something that is not true. So, for example, his team has sued to have Republican observers in ballot counting areas, only to have to admit to a judge that they already have observers there. They are not righting a wrong; they are trying to set Trump’s supporters up to believe a lie.

Remember when, during the impeachment hearings, the Republicans dramatically stormed a hearing to demand they have access… when, in fact, members of the committees already had access and had been attending? Then, as now, it is all about creating a narrative.

By Thursday, Trump’s surrogates were escalating their attacks on the election process. The usual suspects—the Trump children, Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani, the White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, and so on—have tried to cast doubt on the election, insisting that election officials should not be counting mail-in ballots that were cast on or before November 3… except in Arizona.

Some were even more explicit about overturning our democratic process. Trump legal adviser Harmeet Dhillon told Lou Dobbs on the Fox News Channel: “We’re waiting for the United States Supreme Court- of which the president has nominated three justices- to step in and do something. And hopefully Amy Coney Barrett will come through.” Former White House chief strategist Steven Bannon went further, calling for Dr. Anthony Fauci and FBI Director Christopher Wray to be beheaded “as a warning to federal bureaucrats. You either get with the program or you are gone.” Twitter banned Bannon permanently.

Tonight, Trump addressed his sliding fortunes with a statement that will go down in the annals of the American presidency alongside Richard Nixon’s “I am not a crook” speech trying to regain control of the runaway Watergate story. In front of a wall of flags, speaking a low voice and tripping over his words at times, he rambled through a wild attack on the election, claiming it was being stolen from him. MSNBC cut away from his remarks almost immediately, noting they were lies; ABC News made it about five minutes. Fact-checker Daniel Dale tweeted: “I’ve read or watched all of Trump’s speeches since 2016. This is the most dishonest speech he’s ever given.”

It felt Shakespearean, like the desperate attempt of a man who has lost control of the narrative to try to claw it back, even as we all know it’s gone beyond all recovery. As CNN’s Anderson Cooper said, it was “sad and truly pathetic…. That is the most powerful person in the world, and we see him like an obese turtle on his back, flailing in the hot sun, realizing his time is over. But he just hasn’t accepted it, and he wants to take everybody down with him, including this country.”

In the wake of Trump’s statement, more Republican officials condemned his attack on democracy. Then, tonight, 19 former U.S. Attorneys, all of whom served under Republican presidents, released a statement condemning Trump’s “premature, baseless and reckless” attacks on the election process. “We hereby call upon the president to patiently and respectfully allow the lawful vote-counting process to continue, in accordance with applicable federal and state laws, and to avoid any further comments or other actions which can serve only to undermine our democracy,” they wrote. Perhaps more significant is the fact that Fox News Channel’s Bret Baier told his audience that “We have not seen the hard evidence” of the fraud Trump’s campaign claims.

​

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I just don't think that outlook is good enough this time around for us to settle on. Everytime we give corruption a free pass, it returns in greater numbers and is more egregious. If you let this go, the next Trump will be far worse.

Oh I don't think he should get a free pass. Not even remotely. But if we rush in with an idealistic notion about justice, ignoring the systematic tendency for rich people to magically evade consequences in our current system, it's doing that "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" thing.

(Eta) I want them to go for the jugular, but it's a mistake to emotionally invest in an outcome that might not happen. Doing so only inevitably hurts the person who invested in justice, not the person who managed to escape appropriate consequences. If that makes sense.

 

[ceecee]

I just don't think that outlook is good enough this time around for us to settle on. Everytime we give corruption a free pass, it returns in greater numbers and is more egregious. If you let this go, the next Trump will be far worse.

Right wing, extremist populism is 100% coming, much worse than Trump. The only thing that is going to stop it is left wing populism, not centrist moderates. That's a fact. Liberal candidates - run on working people of all races, treat them like ordinary people with real issues. Treat them with respect. Offer to make their lives materially better. It's not that hard. Look at the things that won - $15 min. wage in Florida, weed everywhere, decriminalizing all drugs in small amounts in Oregon...all left policies. People want these things, either the Dems figure that out or they don't. And stop calling these things radical - they are not.

 

[Stigmata]

Oh I don't think he should get a free pass. Not even remotely. But if we rush in with an idealistic notion about justice, ignoring the systematic tendency for rich people to magically evade consequences in our current system, it's doing that "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" thing.

(Eta) I want them to go for the jugular, but it's a mistake to emotionally invest in an outcome that might not happen. Doing so only inevitably hurts the person who invested in justice, not the person who managed to escape appropriate consequences. If that makes sense.

No, I get that part. I guess for me, with all the emphasis being placed upon us healing as a nation, that process cannot begin until those that inflicted the wound are held accountable. The focus of the next 4 years should be amount accountability, both as it pertains to Trump and Joe Biden (it's now time for you to work to fulfill the promises that made the led to the record amount of voter turnout that propelled you to win the presidency, because if you can't then the Democrats are on a course to be absolutely crushed in the mid tern elections/2024 given how much turnout Trump was about to equally turn out despite everything)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I just don't think that outlook is good enough this time around for us to settle on. Everytime we give corruption a free pass, it returns in greater numbers and is more egregious. If you let this go, the next Trump will be far worse.

But that's what we (as a country) like to do so that we can "preserve norms" and "protect institutions." Democratic politicians get off on that stuff. It's yet another symptom of the Si epidemic plaguing this country.

Remember how Obama wanted to "move forward" and not talk about the crimes of the past administration when he got into office? Biden's campaign was "I'm Obama's VP."

You're saying that such a thing should happen, which I agree with. That's quite different from it actually happening.

 

[Stigmata]

Right wing, extremist populism is 100% coming, much worse than Trump. The only thing that is going to stop it is left wing populism, not centrist moderates. That's a fact. Liberal candidates - run on working people of all races, treat them like ordinary people with real issues. Treat them with respect. Offer to make their lives materially better. It's not that hard. Look at the things that won - $15 min. wage in Florida, weed everywhere, decriminalizing all drugs in small amounts in Oregon...all left policies. People want these things, either the Dems figure that out or they don't. And stop calling these things radical - they are not.

I'm with you 1000% but that's kind of broaching another very big issue: Moderate Democrats need to get out of the way of the progressive movement that had been building within the party. The current leadership of the Democratic party needs to be purged so that the party can change their public perception. Right now, the fact that the race was this close, spells big trouble for Democrats if the upper brass tries to maintain this centrist course. You've got to find some way to resonate with rural voters, because not having them is crushing you. They'll even vote for progressive policies but not vote for the candidates you put out because, overwhelmingly, the candidates you put out aren't running on progressive platforms. Being the not trump party is good enough and it almost cost you the election.

 

[FemMecha]

I think it's a "hope for the best, brace yourself for the worst" (and try to avoid investing in expectations for particular outcome in either direction) type thing, where Trump facing criminal charges is concerned.

I just don't think that outlook is good enough this time around for us to settle on. Everytime we give corruption a free pass, it returns in greater numbers and is more egregious. If you let this go, the next Trump will be far worse.

From what I've read and posted in those links in the earlier post, those investigating Trump and building a case are very invested. I'm invested for whatever that is worth in the world.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Right wing, extremist populism is 100% coming, much worse than Trump. The only thing that is going to stop it is left wing populism, not centrist moderates. That's a fact. Liberal candidates - run on working people of all races, treat them like ordinary people with real issues. Treat them with respect. Offer to make their lives materially better. It's not that hard. Look at the things that won - $15 min. wage in Florida, weed everywhere, decriminalizing all drugs in small amounts in Oregon...all left policies. People want these things, either the Dems figure that out or they don't. And stop calling these things radical - they are not.

Word.

No, I get that part. I guess for me, with all the emphasis being placed upon us healing as a nation, that process cannot begin until those that inflicted the wound are held accountable. The focus of the next 4 years should be amount accountability, both as it pertains to Trump and Joe Biden (it's now time for you to work to fulfill the promises that made the led to the record amount of voter turnout that propelled you to win the presidency, because if you can't then the Democrats are on a course to be absolutely crushed in the mid tern elections/2024 given how much turnout Trump was about to equally turn out despite everything)

I think what I'm getting at is that realistically anticipating shitty setbacks (without accepting them as absolutely inevitable, but preparing for them to surface) can lend a steadfast resilience that'll ultimately get better results. On top of the fact that ultimately healing is something that shouldn't be entirely dependent on external circumstances that we can't fully control. (Again, that isn't to say we shouldn't give it our all).

 

[ceecee]

I'm with you 1000% but that's kind of broaching another very big issue: Moderate Democrats need to get out of the way of the progressive movement that had been building within the party. The current leadership of the Democratic party needs to be purged so that the party can change their public perception. Right now, the fact that the race was this close, spells big trouble for Democrats if the upper brass tries to maintain this centrist course. You've got to find some way to resonate with rural voters, because not having them is crushing you. They'll even vote for progressive policies but not vote for the candidates you put out because, overwhelmingly, the candidates you put out aren't running on progressive platforms. Being the not trump party is good enough and it almost cost you the election.

For sure. Nancy Pelosi says she wants 2 more years. I don't want her to have 2 more minutes. Tom Perez should be thrown out of a moving car and the DCCC should be fired into the sun for eternity.

Dem leaders warn liberal rhetoric could blow Georgia races - POLITICO

It's this ^^ shit that is not true and I am sick of anyone supporting. You know what got the votes in GA? Stacy Abraham and Killer Mike. They registered almost a million people to vote and got them to vote.

If “we are going to run on Medicare for All, defund the police, socialized medicine, we're not going to win," says Jim Clyburn.

Wanna bet?

 

[Jaguar]

Tom Perez should be thrown out of a moving car

Since when do you talk like me? *laughs*

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Stacy Abrams is amazing. If I had gone through what she went through (with the guy she ran for office against using his previous job position to suppress voting, and getting away with it), I'd be despondent for years. It would take me a long time to bounce back. That's the unfortunate side effect of having a lot emotionally invested in fair outcomes without preemptively accepting super shitty outcomes happen instead. But she bounced back almost immediately and has been like fucking Wonder Woman making an impact this election year. That's what I'm talking about, when I say that modifying investments in outcome can give resilience that ultimately gives better results.

 

[The Cat]

For sure. Nancy Pelosi says she wants 2 more years. I don't want her to have 2 more minutes. Tom Perez should be thrown out of a moving car and the DCCC should be fired into the sun for eternity.

Dem leaders warn liberal rhetoric could blow Georgia races - POLITICO

It's this ^^ shit that is not true and I am sick of anyone supporting. You know what got the votes in GA? Stacy Abraham and Killer Mike. They registered almost a million people to vote and got them to vote.



Wanna bet?

Corporate Democrats: "The only way to beat the GOP is to become the diet GOP Same bad taste, half the spine."

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Civil Rights group, watchdog formally request Twitter suspend Trump's account over disinformation

The Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law and the watchdog group Common Cause issued a joint request Thursday for Twitter to temporarily suspend President Trump’s account over the spread of disinformation about the election.

The groups sent a joint letter to Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey calling for Trump’s account to be suspended over “repeated violations” of the platform’s Civic Integrity Policy.

“We fear that, in the absence of action by Twitter, the President may be successful in his goal of delegitimizing the integrity of our democratic processes for many, and not just Twitter users but other voters and members of the public, sowing uncertainty about the voting and elections process, and potentially inciting violence against civil servants or others,” Common Cause president Karen Hobert Flynn and Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law executive director Kirsten Clarke wrote.
​

 

[FemMecha]

Civil Rights group, watchdog formally request Twitter suspend Trump's account over disinformation

The Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law and the watchdog group Common Cause issued a joint request Thursday for Twitter to temporarily suspend President Trump’s account over the spread of disinformation about the election.

The groups sent a joint letter to Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey calling for Trump’s account to be suspended over “repeated violations” of the platform’s Civic Integrity Policy.

“We fear that, in the absence of action by Twitter, the President may be successful in his goal of delegitimizing the integrity of our democratic processes for many, and not just Twitter users but other voters and members of the public, sowing uncertainty about the voting and elections process, and potentially inciting violence against civil servants or others,” Common Cause president Karen Hobert Flynn and Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law executive director Kirsten Clarke wrote.
​

This is a tough call because his followers are especially hung up on censorship. It is as though anything censored is assumed to be true. There is a weird negative feedback loop of believing something crazy, then if it's censored they believe that is proof it is true, so they post something crazier, it's gets deleted more quickly, so it must be more true. They equate the notion of it being dangerous with it being a challenge to the system. They don't consider that it could simply be harmful to people because the idea presented is actually that bad.

That is the reasoning I'm seeing. It creates a Catch-22. OTOH, leaving all the shit up and showing that it is meaningless takes some wind out of their sails, but leaving it up focuses the crazy like a prism.

I don't know the answer, but have some inclination to leave everything up and let people suffer the consequences of believing it. I'm not committed to that notion, but leaving up some bad information does provide more transparency. Maybe it would be better to leave it up, but post a true statement along with it?

That feeling that a piece of information (no matter how stupid) is being taken away or withheld makes Trump's followers desire and want it by another order of magnitude.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

This is a tough call because his followers are especially hung up on censorship. It is as though anything censored is assumed to be true. There is a weird negative feedback loop of believing something crazy, then if it's censored they believe that is proof it is true, so they post something crazier, it's gets deleted more quickly, so it must be more true. They equate the notion of it being dangerous with it being a challenge to the system. They don't consider that it could simply be harmful to people because the idea presented is actually that bad.

That is the reasoning I'm seeing. It creates a Catch-22. OTOH, leaving all the shit up and showing that it is meaningless takes some wind out of their sails, but leaving it up focuses the crazy like a prism.

I don't know the answer, but have some inclination to leave everything up and let people suffer the consequences of believing it. I'm not committed to that notion, but leaving up some bad information does provide more transparency. Maybe it would be better to leave it up, but post a true statement along with it?

That feeling that a piece of information (no matter how stupid) is being taken away or withheld makes Trump's followers desire and want it by another order of magnitude.

Yeah, it's a hard call. Your suggestion might be the best I've seen. I think I'd have to observe interaction amongst them for an extended period of time before having any opinion on what might make a dent. Thus far I haven't spent much time trying to understand it; I've just marveled at it in passing and tried not to think about it. Because it's really disturbing. But yeah, it's a hard call.

I'm inclined to wonder if Twitter gave an ultimatum about backing claims up with substantial proof before censoring would make a difference - if only to bring awareness to the fact that most of his claims ARE wildly unsubstantiated (so much so that it seems like he pulls them fresh out of his ass before posting), that it's easy to make unsubstantiated claims, and maybe the amount of substantial support a person presents DOES matter. But so many of these people are so over-the-top whackado that they'd likely pettifog circles around it with their hyper-convoluted logic.